Manga Black Butler Discussion

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XFllo
Topic
04:31:11 AM Apr 9th 2015

Removed from the article:

Collector of the Strange should collect strange stuff, not to hang out with strange people. All-Blue Entry is hugely discouraged. See Sink Hole.
fsdfsdfsd
Topic
12:48:15 AM Nov 23rd 2014
edited by 50.102.96.157
Strange as this sounds for a manga about Victorian England, but Japanese Spirit seems to be a trend. Does anybody else agree? Here's my reasoning:

Sebastian obviously has innate talent as a demon, but he also uses ingenious manipulation and literally draws power from getting direct orders from Ciel- he refuses to break his contract, his beliefs, so much that he physically gets stronger.

Ciel, while not physically strong, was born to great wealth and position, and boy howdy does he make good use of it. He has made clear several times his resolve and beliefs. He's considered wise beyond his years and can at times be very deep for a teenager. He also shows great persistence in his unwillingness to back down from any task, and also in particular the flashbacks to when he and Sebastian first met show that discipline and unwavering determination are crucial to Sebastian's method of teaching, and look at how well Ciel picked that up.

Some debatable points I thought of: In addition, in the Cricket Mini-Arc of the School Arc Edward gets a little spiel about how he's surrounded by natural geniuses, but having no natural gifts of his own has had to struggle and strive to become great. The servants all have great fighting talent, believe fully and completely in Sebastian and Ciel, and never ever give up trying to improve and become better at their jobs. We see in later arcs (the mini-arc before the Witch Arc, and a few lines in the Murder Arc), that slowly but surely Sebastian is letting them do more and more, and they actually are improving. Bluer, again in the Cricket Mini-Arc, has a short spiel of his own that can be summarized as him having talent he didn't know how to use, but neither resolve nor persistence until Ciel inspired those things in him. Even Elizabeth, having The Gift obviously, but it was something she was ashamed of and hid from until she developed the resolve to protect Ciel. Persistence... I have no clue. That might be one of her character flaws- she gave up on being strong too soon and spent over fifty chapters as The Load as a result, until the need to protect Ciel overwhelmed her. Again with Sebastian teaching Ciel, it looks like the two of them put the most emphasis on trying again and again, persistently until they get it right. Plus, one of the things it's implied Sebastian taught to Ciel is how to gain insight into other people's psychology, needs, desires and motivations. If nothing else, both characters use their understanding of these topics to manipulate others. Just a little notice.

Does anybody else agree with this, or am I seeing things? Does this analysis seem accurate to anyone else?
inko8
Topic
09:14:29 AM Feb 22nd 2013
"children are a waste" entry:

lists prostitute as giving this trope as "excuse" for seeking abortion; suggest substitution in language of "reason" for "excuse." if the anime itself is misogynistic on its own, fine, but let the trope description be neutral at least.
ACreolePrincess
01:58:02 PM Jun 12th 2014
Yes, I edited that trope to keep it neutral. While we are clearly asked to sympathize with Madam Red, no one is encouraged to condone her behavior.
Nocturna
Topic
09:52:14 AM Nov 16th 2012
edited by Nocturna
Okay guys, we're having a very slow edit war on this page over Grell's gender, so we need to decide which gender to use and stick with it. I'm hoping we can work this out here, rather than it having to take this to Ask The Tropers.

What gender should we use for Grell in our articles?

This is a very sensitive/inflammatory topic, so please keep it civil and extend the benefit of the doubt to everyone involved.

  • Male?
    • Grell is clearly biologically male, so someone with only a passing acquaintance with the series would expect male nouns and pronouns.
    • The show generally treats Grell as male (being a butler, all Shinigami seem to be male, etc.), and the other characters on the show refer to Grell using male pronouns.
    • This is the most commonly used gender among fans and in general discussion. Both Wikipedia and the Kuroshitsuji wiki refer to Grell with male nouns and pronouns.

  • Female?
    • Grell is transgender (heavily implied in-universe, confirmed by Word of God), so female nouns and pronouns are technically correct.
    • Our character page already uses female nouns and pronouns.
Nocturna
10:01:29 AM Nov 16th 2012
I wanted the first post to be as neutral as possible, so I didn't include my opinion in it. Here's my personal opinion on the question: I would go with male pronouns, while making it clear on the character sheet (and wherever else necessary) than Grell is transgender. I think this will be the least confusing, and most in line with the way other places have handled it (feeding back into it being the least confusing).
Larkmarn
07:21:31 AM Jun 12th 2014
It's been a while, but I thought Grell was a gay tranvestite and didn't think s/he was a transgender.

That said, I say we use whatever s/he is identified as in the English version of the work.
randomsurfer
03:05:42 PM Jun 12th 2014
^ +1. Whatever pronoun the character uses when referring to him/herself is what we should use. (Never seen it so I don't know what that is, or if it's ever come up.)
Nocturna
Topic
09:46:10 AM Sep 24th 2012
edited by Nocturna
The image was recently changed from the top image to the bottom image . I personally think the first image is better, as it is from official promotional material and is the whole image, rather than an obviously cropped image.

Thoughts?
KrisMahai
10:00:47 PM Sep 24th 2012
Personally, I'm a fan of the old (top) image as well. I'd rather have that, honestly.
Telcontar
11:30:34 PM Sep 24th 2012
Ditto; the old image is more interesting and illustrative.
Nocturna
07:21:59 PM Sep 25th 2012
Shall I swap it back, then, or give it a bit more time to sit?
KrisMahai
10:44:54 PM Sep 25th 2012
Go ahead, since the other guy didn't bother discussing. I think it'll be fine.
sabros413
08:28:07 PM Nov 4th 2012
edited by sabros413
Oh, I'm "the other guy", I didn't see this discussion til now. I just thought that the original image displayed their relationship in an odd way, but it works just fine, I suppose.
Malthus
Topic
12:50:56 PM Apr 1st 2012
Should we add the blue and orange morlaity trope? I remember demons actions being based on aestetic instead than on morals if I'm not mistaken.
Nocturna
01:35:01 PM Apr 1st 2012
Hm... Good point. I think that would probably fall under Blue and Orange Morality.
LayLay
Topic
09:43:59 AM Jan 30th 2012
In german "grell" can mean "glaring" (in respects of light/colors) and "piercing" (in respect of sounds). Bilingual Bonus or coincidence?
sabros413
08:28:58 PM Nov 4th 2012
I don't think it's clear enough to be Bilingual Bonus, so I think we can leave it out.
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