Manga Berserk Discussion

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watermark0
Topic
12:45:41 PM Nov 4th 2015
Could this page contain any more unmarked spoilers? Someone needs to go through this page.
TheBigBopper
08:19:47 PM Dec 8th 2015
edited by TheBigBopper
You certainly have a point. I think that we do have a problem with insufficient and inconsistent care taken with spoilers, and confess that maybe my own efforts in that area have been inadequate. Before we proceed with the discussion, can you just clarify whether you are referring only to the main page at the moment, or if you wanted to address other pages as well such as tropes A-D or the character pages? It's important to know what we're talking about. If I have time I will invite others to take part in this discussion.

Now, as far as I can tell, I am currently the self-appointed busybody most involved with the maintenance of Berserk and associated pages. I joined the community in about 2013, so already there was a huge body of work created by persons unknown to me. I have no qualifications or community mandate for this role except that I am inordinately interested in Berserk and its adaptations as my favorite work of fiction, and am inclined to work on these pages when I really should be writing papers for grad school.

Now, I'm temporarily assuming you're just talking about the main page, whose purpose is to serve as the hub of all the other Berserk pages, give the plot summary, and list the various adaptations. The plot summary is essentially the version that existed when I first joined, which I substantially added to this year to incorporate more information about the God Hand, Behelits, etc., as well as more information about the adaptations. I left its structure substantially the same as before because I did not have the energy to reinvent the wheel, and thought that it was as good as any idea I could have.

Now, I assume the spoilers you're talking about are mostly what happens after the Eclipse, such as Griffith being reincarnated and Guts going on his quest to Elfhelm. If it's just that, I'm sure we could remove those details if we really wanted to. I'd just want to make sure that we replaced it with something good. The series does continue after the Golden Age Arc, so one way or another we need to give the reader an idea of why they should be interested in what happens afterwards.

If you were talking about the Eclipse itself and Griffith's betrayal of Guts, I do not think we can possibly get rid of that. The series starts in medias res with those details already established by volume 3 before the Golden Age Arc even starts, and it is only a first time anime or movie viewer who wouldn't know that foregone conclusion. The Golden Age Arc was meant to be experienced with a sense of foreshadowing and inevitable doom, with the only question being exactly how that outcome would come about. This page is mainly a treatment of the manga which is about way more than just the golden age arc.

I have already assumed too much about what you want to say, so please say whatever is on your mind. Do you have an idea of what you propose we should change? I will try to respond promptly.
TheBigBopper
06:41:48 PM Feb 4th 2016
I believe I have succeeded in making the summary a little less spoileriffic regarding what happens during and after the Conviction Arc, but please voice your opinion if you do not think that is sufficient.
TheBigBopper
Topic
08:46:05 PM Jul 8th 2015
I just sent a PM to King Clark asking about the origin and purpose of the new main page image caption. I happened to like the previous "Little bit of blood" caption, and was wondering if we could decide by majority whether to keep the change.
KingClark
11:34:44 PM Jul 8th 2015
For the record, the line comes from the song "Forces", the lyrics of which describe Guts.
TheBigBopper
07:14:00 AM Jul 9th 2015
edited by TheBigBopper
Thank you for your quick response. I definitely appreciate that you're using Susumu Hirasawa's music, which provides great atmosphere for the anime. However, as awesome as it would sound in Japanese I still think that line sounds kind of awkward and out of context the way it was translated into English and perhaps would find a better place on the Awesome Music or Quotes page. I actually was not familiar with the lyrics of Hirasawa's songs and at first didn't recognize it, and for such an important front page spot it might be a problem if it hits people as a non-sequitur. I liked how the previous caption made an irreverent and funny yet accurate statement about what you should expect when you start reading, and feel like the "In This World" top page quote provides enough of a gloomy and ominous atmosphere on its own, so personally I would still like to change the caption back. However, it would be selfish of me to disagree with you alone so I hope that others will chime in.
TheBigBopper
07:56:27 PM Aug 4th 2015
Well, it looks like nobody else has noticed this discussion. Therefore, I would like to make a proposition. "Forces" is great and evokes a thrilling mood, but honestly it does not strike me as being about Guts specifically, and its grammar as it appears in translation on Anime Lyrics.com is rather on the side of Purple Prose and being hard to understand. I was waiting until I had a counterproposal, and now I've got it. The page image is the cover of volume 14, so why don't we use a quote from that volume, spoken by Godo when he first sees Guts use the Dragon Slayer to kill an apostle: "Dragons are dragons because humans can't beat 'em. So, what's a man who beats dragons?" I think that it's relevant to the picture, as it represents how Guts, by taking up a monstrous sword and an iron hand to replace the one of flesh and bone that he lost, has decided at this point to push himself beyond human limits to seek revenge against monsters, even if it means sacrificing his humanity. There will be a note on the end, saying "Guts, center; Puck; top right." If you like, we can PM some people who have edited Berserk content in the past and ask them to contribute to this discussion. Maybe that way we can have a more meaningful dialogue, but int the meantime what do you think of my suggestion?
TheBigBopper
10:19:39 PM Aug 14th 2015
edited by TheBigBopper
If we do have a vote, we have these options so far:

1. "Go forth! O loquacious shadows, come and guide me!" (Troper: King Clark; source, Susumu Hirasawa "Forces" lyrics)
2. "Dragons are dragons because humans can't beat 'em. So, what's a man who beats dragons?" (Troper: The Big Bopper; source, quote by Godo in volume 14)
3. There's a tiny bit of blood. Just a forewarning. (Troper:ragnarok235; source, original)

Others at this stage could still be nominated. I suggest that whatever wins a vote, we should have the collapsing note indicating Guts and Puck in the picture.
Chabal2
10:25:46 PM Aug 14th 2015
Either 2 or 3 looks more appropriate.
KingClark
12:38:04 PM Aug 15th 2015
I'll go for the second option.
TheBigBopper
01:01:50 PM Aug 16th 2015
Perhaps this is premature, as responses are few, but I think we have at least established a small consensus to replace number 1, and since me and King Clark vote for 2 and Chabal2 prefers 2 or 3 over 1, I will put up number 2 for the time being. We can replace it with number 3 or something else later if more votes come in afterwards. Thanks especially to King Clark for being so gracious about the whole thing.
Alrune
Topic
10:59:57 AM Jan 12th 2013
Should we unspoiler the Idea of Evil's entry in the Characters' section? It's unspoilered on many other trope pages.
Salamandre
11:31:11 PM Sep 25th 2013
It is basically the ultimate spoiler, since Miura himself said it was too much of a giveaway of plot too early. But it might not be canon, so I'm not sure if it matters anymore or if it will ever be touched on again specifically.
TheBigBopper
07:14:08 PM Aug 5th 2015
edited by TheBigBopper
I think that either until the manga ends without the Io E coming back, or until it does come back—in which it would definitely matter—we have to assume that keeping the secret matters. For the time being I think we need to try and spoiler this information if we find it unspoilered on any other trope pages that are not specifically "spoilered rotten" tropes.
Xcelcio
Topic
08:32:45 AM Oct 4th 2011
There's an entry on the page

Empathic Weapon: The Berserker Armor changes shape to match its wielder, taking on a skull facade for Skull Knight and turning into a face similar to the Hellhound for Guts.

"taking on a skull facade for Skull Knight"

Where is this seen/implied, I seem to have missed it.
McSomeguy
07:29:16 AM Oct 7th 2011
We don't know what the original shape of the berserker armor was. It is possible that the skull shape was there originally, but considering it's ability to change shape depending on the wielder it is also possible that it took on the skull shape when the Skull Knight wore it. It is not, however, explicitly stated that this was the case, we only know that he was the previous wearer of the armor.
Autotrooper
Topic
05:12:16 PM Oct 3rd 2011
So, I don't get it. From what I have seen on this site, hurting or killing children is considered crossing the moral even horizon, or being a complete monster, etc. But this page still sees Guts as a sort of Anti-hero. The Punisher is an anti-hero, and he would never kill kids.
Xcelcio
04:40:56 PM Oct 4th 2011
edited by Xcelcio
Correct me if I'm wrong but all the children Guts harmed were already possessed/demonized/whatever the word is and were hostile.
Capa
09:52:26 PM Oct 16th 2011
edited by Capa
If you're talking about Rosine and her elves, he had to kill them or else be killed. In the case of Adonis, Julius' son, that was accidental; he didn't mean for that to happen. Guts hasn't crossed the moral event horizon by killing a child because the times that he did were by accident or in self-defense not out of malice.
Autotrooper
05:00:04 PM Oct 17th 2011
How was killing Adonis an accident? Seems like a moral event horizon to me.
Capa
04:08:21 PM Oct 19th 2011
It was an automatic reaction; his whole life he was trained to kill without asking questions first. He heard a noise outside of the door and as soon as he realized someone was watching him; he reacted. If you need more information look at the Berserk wikia.
Autotrooper
01:49:45 PM Oct 26th 2011
Ok, i think i get it now. Another question though, what's up with the the little fairy/elves like puck? They feel out of place and too cartoony. And what is the point of Puck being nude?
TheBigBopper
12:55:29 PM Aug 16th 2015
edited by TheBigBopper
Well, this is a Fantasy Kitchen Sink. If you can have demons, why not elves? If there's evil supernatural creatures there are bound to be benevolent ones. The whole Lost Children chapter is about the horrifying result of combining a childlike fantasy with horror elements.

Honestly I think it would be prudish if Puck weren't nude. It's not a sexual thing, and it's not like he has any genitals to cover up. On the contrary, Puck's nudity is a symbol of his eternally youthful innocence and the fact that elves live in harmony with nature, like Adam and Eve before they ate from the tree of knowledge and became ashamed of their nakedness.
NoxArtemis
Topic
08:38:13 PM Jul 26th 2011
Do you think that Guts's life story would qualify for Deus Angst Machina or is it a bit too much?
TheBigBopper
06:43:27 PM Feb 4th 2016
I think that Guts and indeed several other characters' stories would qualify. Tropes Are Not Bad, I say.
TuefelHundenIV
Topic
07:32:13 PM Mar 14th 2011
Ok folks I shifted the YMMV tagged tropes to the YMMV tab for this work. I tried to keep lines intact as best as I possibly could that used the YMMV tropes as part of the line.
Alrune
Topic
11:23:45 PM Sep 28th 2010
Permission to fangasm (modestly) about the new anime?
OwnersInc
07:21:05 PM Jan 25th 2011
Granted
108.56.195.151
Topic
02:43:42 AM Jun 28th 2010
How can we put a reference to Götz von Berlichingen in here? I mean, that's who Guts was based on.
Chabal2
05:12:34 AM Oct 23rd 2010
I think I read somewhere that was actually a coincidence.
TheBigBopper
06:45:39 PM Feb 4th 2016
Miura said in an interview that he only found out about Götz von Berlichingen after he started writing, and that he mostly based Guts' design on various manga and action movie antiheroes. I think we have to take his word for it, since he doesn't have a reputation for trolling his fans. Guts can't be called an Expy of that historical person precisely because it's just a remarkable coincidence.
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