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What The Hell, Hero? Discussion
To Joeyjojo, re: moral ambiguity in the archived discussion:
What The Hell Hero is about in-universe character reactions to the acts, not the morally questionable acts themselves. If you want, suggest something withing the Trope Repair shop.
Would the revelation in World War Hulk really count as an Author's Saving Throw? We saw the Illuminati planning the whole thing, and a bomb was never mentioned, so it's not a retcon.
"At this point Puck is so appalled by Guts' consistently nihilistic behavior..."
I'm no expert, but I'm pretty sure that's not what that word means; "nihilistic" is not a handy synonym for "aggressively cruel". Maybe I'm missing something here; anyone have a case for the correctness of this usage?
I think the majority of the Guts diatribe should be removed. For one thing, it goes way too in-depth and feels more like an excuse for people to rant against Guts' behavior than provide actual examples of What The Hell, Hero? To that point, there are almost no examples of this trope. Yeah, Puck is constantly calling Guts out on his cruelty, but the trope isn't about characters noticing the hero's amoral actions...it's about an otherwise flawlessly good character getting called out for doing something bad. Guts is a straight up Byronic Hero and has realized that he commits terrible actions but has little to no remorse for them, so these lengthy diatribes are completely irrelevant.
In essence, Guts never makes any claims about being the good guy, he isn't even presented that way by the author, so even though other characters call him out on his behavior it doesn't qualify for What The Hell, Hero? I read and reread the trope explanation to see if I was right about this; if I'm not, could someone please correct me? (And even if I'm not, I still think the Guts thing needs to be trimmed down and given a more neutral tone)
I can't remember the name of the show, but there's this one cop show where the female lead finds out her husband's filed for divorce, and when she goes to him for answers, he calls her out for never caring about how her career was potentially traumatic to their children.
I think it was NYPD Blue, but I can't remember for sure. Anyone recognize this scenario?
Right okay, I can't deny this could be the seed of an epic thread mode/flame war. I'm a big supporter of wikileaks and think Assange is the great folk hero of our generation and I'd like to see an entry here, but not enough to get into a tedious edit scrap about it, so why don't we see if we can find a compromise?
Here's what we've got so far
Both points are valid, though I'm not sure how the response relates to this trope. It probably should be integrated (as the same senitment will appear if it's not), but we should put something succinct, balanced and all encompassing (and if we could avoid justifying the murder of someone who hasn't actually committed a crime, that would be good too). Perhaps adding a bit about not so different, as people have criticised the secrecy of wikileaks itself...or even throw a what the hell hero back at Assange for allegedly endangering the lives of informants? Having typed that, I think that might be the best bet Thoughts? Comments?
- Wikileaks release of American Diplomatic Cables may be the Ur Real Life example of this trope. People have
reacted strongly to the call out...
- Or, depending on your perspective, the critics may be calling Wikileaks out for endangering diplomacy and informants' lives.
Both points are valid, though I'm not sure how the response relates to this trope. It probably should be integrated (as the same senitment will appear if it's not), but we should put something succinct, balanced and all encompassing (and if we could avoid justifying the murder of someone who hasn't actually committed a crime, that would be good too). Perhaps adding a bit about not so different, as people have criticised the secrecy of wikileaks itself...or even throw a what the hell hero back at Assange for allegedly endangering the lives of informants? Having typed that, I think that might be the best bet Thoughts? Comments?
In Neverwinter Nights 2, after you have aquiered your own stronghold, you have the opportunity to send out a band of newbie adventureres (NP Cs) on increasing dangerous missions. If you overdo and send them to the most dangerous mission (3rd one) you will face them shortly before the final boss fight. They have been turned evil and undead (because the misson was too much for them). Now they fight your party - and the encounter is *really* difficult. Obviously the player collected some Bad Karma. ;-)
This trope seems to imply that the person who is being called out on their actions is ALWAYS wrong, yet several of the examples could be debatable in my opinion. Is it simply about any instance of calling out someone for their actions, whether they were justified or not?