Main Villain Hasa Point Discussion

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Morgenthaler
Topic
07:55:34 AM Jun 13th 2016
I added this example to the page:

  • The Matrix: Cypher betrays and murders his comrades for a chance to get back inside the Matrix, making him clearly villainous. However, he claims one of his grievances with Morpheus is the admittedly shady way that Morpheus gains new recruits by peeking their interest with cryptic conversations and not telling them the truth about the real world being a bombed-out wasteland until after they've already made their decision.

This was removed by Ferot Dreadnaught for the following reason: "Strawman Has a Point unless a sympathetic character acknowledges it In-Universe." We have already discussed this example in the "Is this an example?" thread in Trope Talk, and all agreed that it fits the criteria of this trope and not Strawman Has a Point (Cypher is not a Strawman, i.e. a chararacter whose argument is supposed to be easy to tear down, but he is an unambiguous villain who makes a good point). Furthermore, nothing in the description indicates anything about in-universe acknowledgments being required.

KingZeal
08:27:22 AM Jun 13th 2016
I always thought this was In-universe only, too. Did the description change?
Larkmarn
09:14:44 AM Jun 13th 2016
If this isn't In-Universe only, then this should be YMMV.
MagBas
Topic
08:03:47 AM Jun 21st 2015
  • Admiral Dogherty in Star Trek: Insurrection has become infamous among Trek fandom for this. For the cost of moving six hundred people peacefully from a planet that they were technically squatting on, the Admiral was aiming to save the lives of billions throughout the galaxy. His whole speech in the Ready Room, something that was blatantly designed to make him look and sound like an imperialist monster, sounds so reasonable to so many people it makes Picard look like a fool.

He was not portrayed as having a point in-universe. This sounds as a Strawman Has a Point example.
MagBas
Topic
09:44:25 PM Mar 15th 2014
    Tabletop Games 
  • In Deadlands: Hell on Earth, the Anti-Templars, who draw upon the corrupting power of the Reckoners so they have the strength to try and save everyone are supposed to be the villains, and the far more self-righteous and judgmental Templars the good guys, to the point that in the Last Crusaders sourcebook, the authors outright state that the Templar's way of abandoning those who do not meet their standards is the right way, under the adage "if you aren't part of the solution, you're part of the problem". Many fans, however, see the noble intentions for which the Anti-Templars are willing to damn themselves and consider them more heroic than the Templars will ever be. Given that the Templar archetype in the corebook comes with fluff-text about him punishing a town for looking down on him when he was pretending to be a harmless beggar by forcing the adults to be Cannon Fodder for a Suicide Mission against a bandit camp and the children to be slaves to help a town he does consider "worthy" prepare its defenses, well...

This actually is an example of Strawman Has a Point- The own example notes that within the story, the Anti Templars have not a point.

Arivne
Topic
04:53:53 AM Nov 2nd 2011
Deleted the spoiler from the Isaac Asimov "The Dead Past" example. The story came out in 1956 and thus falls under the Statute of Limitations in our Handling Spoilers policy.
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http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/remarks.php?trope=Main.VillainHasaPoint