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Petranca
topic
08:41:08 AM Mar 6th 2010
How many references does a Web Comic, Web Animation, or other Web Original work/series need to qualify? - Petranca
94.5.103.36
04:34:44 PM Mar 17th 2010
edited by 94.5.103.36
So, what does the %% bits mean in the context of the page?
MetaFour
moderator
09:18:39 PM Apr 27th 2010
The double-percent signs just mark a bit of text as "comments" so they show up when you view the page source or try to edit the page, but don't show up when you're viewing the page normally.
94.9.179.3
05:49:03 PM Jun 29th 2010
edited by 94.9.179.3
Didn't answer the question. What do they mean in the context of Trope Overdosed?

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Bedinsis
topic
03:20:02 PM Mar 31st 2010
Does Wikipedia really belong here? That isn't a franchise of fictional/semi-fictional stories, that's a webpage that's tvtropes but less specific and more professional. Plus, more than half of the references are probably just in the "according to Wikipedia"-vein.

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SomeGuy
topic
05:08:25 PM Apr 25th 2010
edited by SomeGuy
I've changed this page, at the risk of seriously pissing some people off. I've played with this trope in the Wiki Sandbox, and try as I might I simply can't figure out how or if this list works. So far as I can tell the % signatures don't do anything, and rank is based entirely off of the order the works in question are listed. Considering this page is commonly used as a gauge by outsiders for determining what works are the most popular on the wiki this is unacceptable. We might as well not have the page at all if there's no way to objectively verify how many wiks a work actually has.

As a baseline I only used the single page for each series I thought was most likely to carry the highest number of wiks, and spelled those numbers out in bold so they can be clearly verified. Other users can gather more specific counts, say including non-duplicated redirects and post them at their leisure. This system is far from perfect, but since it deals with counts that can at least be verified I consider it an improvement.

One wiki tech feature that would help a great deal in making this page accurate would be a tool that allows us to put more than one Wiki Word into the "related to" engine. This would allow us, for example, to figure out how many Star Trek The Next Generation wiks exist independently of Star Trek wiks, so that we don't overestimate the counts due to duplicated tropes.

All of this assumes, of course, that my investigation and conclusions regarding the former formatting of this page are accurate. If my hypotheses are incorrect and the formatting was doing something to verify the accuracy of the listings, I have a request for the Admins- Not In The Face!
insofar
01:58:54 AM Apr 27th 2010
"We might as well not have the page at all if there's no way to objectively verify how many wiks a work actually has."

There is a way - it's just that it's manual rather than automatic. On the whole, I think cutting the entire list is a little too trigger happy. Raising the qualifying threshold seems like a better idea, and leaves the page less bare = prettier.
Belian
06:30:38 AM Apr 27th 2010
edited by Belian
I understand what you are saying. For most of the entries finding the number of Wicks is easy: Just use the "reference to..." at the top of the page. But that is not all there is to it. YOU come up with the correct number of Wicks for Star Trek or Star Wars. And then tell us how you found them. If you figure out a reasonable way to get those numbers, it can be applied to the rest of the entries.
SomeGuy
11:08:55 AM Apr 27th 2010
A bit of an update here- most of what I wrote before is moot, as Fast Eddie completely redid the page a few minutes after I finished writing up that discussion post. The rubric has been changed so that there's no numbered ranks, just an alphabetical listing of all works that fall under the numerical threashold. This means that anyone can add a new series to the list if it meets the mathematical requirement (Family Guy and Code Geass quickly come to mind as series that qualify but aren't currently up there, as well as Harry Potter for possibly being Trope-Saturated as opposed to Trope-Overdosed), and that we don't hyperventilate about which series is x amount of wiks more popular than the other.

I still believe that keeping exact numbers of how many pages reference a series would be a pitifully simple task if we were allowed to put more than one Wiki Word into the "related to" search function, but at least now this page has a rubric that's far more easily understood.
insofar
12:45:30 PM Apr 27th 2010
edited by insofar
Aye. I was just thinking of retaining the third category while changing its parameters (1000-2000 wicks for example), since that's still quite a large number of references to have. Basically, it would keep the current format of the page, but expand it to include the "overdosed" category.
BrightBlueInk
02:52:12 PM Apr 27th 2010
I'd like that, I sorta miss the "overdosed" category. Plus it seems odd to cut that category out when that's what the trope is named.
Game_Fan
07:50:06 PM Apr 27th 2010
edited by Game_Fan
Three levels seems more reasonable.

  • Trope Overdosed (4000+)
  • Trope Saturated (2000+)
  • Trope Loaded (1000+) (because that's still a huge number of hits)

I support the alphabetical organization over numerical order.

A quick check of the list suggests a need to reorganize it and shows just how difficult this will be. Avatar The Last Air Bender only gets 18 hits by the proscribed method. OOTS just 1708.
insofar
08:04:49 PM Apr 27th 2010
edited by insofar
Doing an unpunctuated 'related to' search on Avatar: The Last Airbender gives you over 2000 wicks. But I'm not so much concerned with the technicalities as with the purpose of the page.

If, as Some Guy said, the article is meant to catalogue the popular titles for people's convenience, I think it'd be a good idea to feature more than the already well-known and mainstream works that are on the page right now. Having a third category of popular examples could give exposure to works that are immensely popular on the wiki while perhaps being too niche to be household names, which is what I think people would be looking for in this article.

I think a good start point would be reviewing the Overdosed list that got deleted, and prune the examples that don't reach (as of yet) the 1000+ minimum. There would probably be other works that meet the criterion that aren't listed, but those can be added as we find them.
SomeGuy
08:11:50 PM Apr 27th 2010
That's part of what makes this funky- accurate counts require not just checking the main page related counts, but also redirects. The non-p-title Avatar The Last Airbender scores 2284 hits because it's the one most commonly potholed. It also makes things like a manual count of Final Fantasy nearly impossible- you'd not only have to add the dozen odd title in the series up, you'd also have to calculate how many are duplicates, since Final Fantasy can only use, say, Mysterious Waif once for the sake of this tabulation even though five separate Final Fantasy games are mentioned on that page.

You have to use this bar in order to gather counts on redirects- put the title in question after the last slash.
insofar
08:16:16 PM Apr 27th 2010
Besides that, are there any objections to restoring the third category?
AnonymousMcCartneyfan
08:24:41 PM Apr 27th 2010
I'm in favor. Trope Overdosed does need overdosed tropes!
insofar
08:50:40 PM Apr 27th 2010
OK, this is the (probably incomplete) list of the Trope Overdosed examples (1000+ wicks) taken from the examples earlier deleted by Some Guy.

SomeGuy
04:34:55 PM Apr 29th 2010
edited by SomeGuy
Hey! I didn't delete those! Seriously, none of those were there when I took my first stab at the page. I think it was modified into the "top 35 trope-gathering shows" form long before I showed up. Everyone seems to agree that defining this trope by wiks is much better than by rank, especially in lieu of a method to tabulate duplicates.

I think if we add folder control to this page there will be no objections if we re-institute the 1000+ wiks category.
Frank75
06:35:48 AM May 7th 2010
At first: Fasten your seatbelt please, this is gonna be a bumpy ride.

Seriously guys, I feel really cheated. In the past I did a lot of work to keep Trope Overdosed up to date, but now it looks like this has been for nothing.

I even had written a Python script to calculate exact numbers for each page, which also sorts out duplicates, JBM, WMG and Contributor pages.

As said, I've put a lot of effort in maintaining this page. Nobody bothered to tell me what you were up to.

SomeGuy
12:07:17 PM May 7th 2010
edited by SomeGuy
Come on now. It's not like we knew you were gonna be into it or something. Have you ever tried using the watchlist feature? That would tell you whenever your favorite pages are being edited, and you could swoop down with your Python to save us all.

I've put up a methodology listing to tell us basic qualifications, but feel free to put up your own if you've devised a better formula than I have.

Incidentally, I've redefined Trope Overdosed to be at the "above 2000 below 3000" threshold, since the list seems a bit long. It makes a lot more sense to define these categories by even thousands, considering there's an excessive bit of difference between a work with 2050 wiks and 3900 of them that we really should reflect in the tabulation.
insofar
04:05:08 PM May 7th 2010
edited by insofar
If you're going by increments that double the previous number, 1000-2000 and 2000-4000 categories make perfect sense. 1000 wicks is a lot, and the point of the page is to categorize, not to try its hardest to avoid categorizing.

It does look neater now, at any rate.
ExplodingFrogs
10:26:33 PM May 8th 2010
edited by ExplodingFrogs
Agreed. The whole point of this page is to acknowledge which shows have an unusually high number of wicks; eliminating everything below 2000 makes absolutely no sense in that regard. Do you honestly believe the likes of The Dresden Files, Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann, Mass Effect, and Disgaea don't count as Overdosed? That's more than enough wicks for it be difficult to find a page that doesn't reference them. Trope Overdosed should include works with 1000 wicks and up.
Belian
11:13:26 PM May 8th 2010
edited by Belian
Looking back at what it was before the exact counts were dropped, it was:

Trope Saturated (4,000 wicks or more) (with 5 entries)

Trope Overloaded (2,000 - 3,999 Wicks) (with ~40)

Trope Overdosed (600 - 1,999 Wicks) (with ~90)

Film Overdosed: (Number of references for a single film (or with one sequel) — trilogies and longer series should have enough material to be a candidate for the main Overdosed list above — 80 reference minimum) (with over 100)

Creator Overdosed: (Number of references for popular writers / directors / musicians / whatever — 100 reference minimum) (with ~50)

IMO, we should have all the categories with some modifications to the # of Wicks. Saturated would still be 4000+, Overloaded would be 2500-4000, Overdosed 1000-2500 (a compromise of previous comments), Film 200+, Creator 150+. And all categories, from Overdosed down, would be folder-ed to lower the page length.

How does that sound?
ExplodingFrogs
12:23:23 AM May 9th 2010
As far as making new categories goes: NOOOOOOO. Three is more than enough.

The Saturated/Overloaded/Overdosed division seems reasonable enough, though.
Belian
08:55:13 AM May 9th 2010
That should be a Big No link ;)

Going to move this over to the forum topic as my next comment is more YMMV then hard numbers.

Frank75
07:26:21 AM May 10th 2010
@Some Guy:

"I've put up a methodology listing to tell us basic qualifications"

Er, WTH? Is this a valid English sentence at all? Try it again.

About my script: To get an accurate number of wicks for for works where you have to add up wicks for several pages, you click each of the links for this work, and then at "related". You look at the source code of the HTML page, scroll down, and copy the line that starts with "<div class="wmglead" ><span style="color:chocolate;". (It's often a very long line, because it contains all the wicks, but treat it as a single one.) Copy this line (for each file) into a simple .txt file, and save it when you did this for all the links. Afterwards, you simply run the python script and check what it says about individual results.

That's it. It's still a bit of work, but it automatically removes the JBM/WMG/Troper pages, and also all the duplicates. Using this, I got the 4000+ wicks for Final Fantasy, and the other results.

insofar
02:47:09 PM May 10th 2010
I'm also not in favor of restoring the original categories. Three is perfectly fine. I just think the thresholds need to be adjusted.
SomeGuy
03:14:15 PM May 10th 2010
edited by SomeGuy
I'm unconvinced that 1000 hits is a reasonable threshold. It was back when we first started this page, but that was when the wiki was way younger and a work having that many hits was unusual. It seems foolhardy to me to define the categories on this page in such a way that it just becomes an index of every work of fiction, ever, especially when so many of them are just flat listings without capsule descriptions.

Anyway, Frank, I don't think I using all that much Sesquipedalian Loquaciousness, but to simplify- I put words on the page saying how we determine the numbers. Your Python script sounds interesting, though. I find it very believable that we're lowballing the Final Fantasy numbers using the current estimates. I recommend you keep pursuing Fast Eddie on this point. Explain to him, as an example, how I can't verify the Final Fantasy series having more than 2800 wiks using current wiki tools but your script apparently can.

If you have this page on your watchlist now, as I suggested, you could at least convince Fast Eddie to let you act as Page Guardian, a term I totally made up just now to refer to people who scrutinize edits to specific pages. Since you're the only one with access to the script, you presumably have a better ability to determine accurate wik counts than the rest of us do. We don't need exact numbers, but we could still use ballpark estimates.
ExplodingFrogs
05:56:22 PM May 10th 2010
edited by ExplodingFrogs
It still is unusual. There are hundreds—maybe even thousands—of works on this wiki that are nowhere near 1000 wicks. Yes, there are substantially more shows that have managed this than have managed 2000 or 4000 wicks—this will be true of any similar list. The greater the quantity of something that must be accumulated to qualify for a a category, the fewer things will be capable of qualifying for that category. It is The Way Things Work. Expecting an even distribution throughout the categories demonstrates a severely flawed understanding of statistics and probability.
insofar
07:08:11 PM May 10th 2010
edited by insofar
"I'm unconvinced that 1000 hits is a reasonable threshold."

To go ahead and delete a bunch of example because you are personally unconvinced when more people are in favor of a 1000 threshold is kind of... well, rude. At least consult other users, like the rest of us are doing?
SomeGuy
07:53:48 PM May 10th 2010
This is a fair point- I deleted them in part because I saw in the page history that Fast Eddie was the one who initially deleted them, and was likely to do so again the next time he saw the page. So, I figured I'd at least keep the Trope Overdosed classification by redefining it in such a way that the examples would not be considered forfeit, with the added bonus that the eight more highly referenced works now have a hierarchical position more coherent with their overall usage.

It might help to look at things this way- what is the purpose of Trope Overdosed? We already know it's not a wik-measuring contest because Fast Eddie has decreed that outright. I doubt that it's supposed to be a long list of works that use tropes for the same reason. So, what the heck is it?

Here's what I've always assumed it to be- it's a page explaining why why certain works have such a ridiculously large number of wiki references. This list has to maintain some exclusivity, or it becomes a meaningless garble of every semi-popular work we have. Everything above the 2000 wik threshold has a capsule description explaining why the large number of references. What does it help to list a bunch of works that have 1000+ wiks, but no capsule description, and which don't seem all that disproportionately popular compared to the several dozen other shows in the same category?
insofar
08:09:45 PM May 10th 2010
Well, I can neither speak for Fast Eddie nor the creator of the page, whoever it might have been, but it serves to note which fandoms are popular across this site. If we stick to the highest of the thresholds, we will only come up with Lord of the Rings, Batman, Harry Potter, and stuff that is already part of the mainstream. If we spread it out to include more examples, works that are more niche would get exposure as well.
Belian
08:26:02 PM May 10th 2010
edited by Belian
As we are talking about the entire Trope population, may I suggest (again) that we move the conversation to the forums so more people will see what is going on?
ExplodingFrogs
08:37:20 PM May 10th 2010
edited by ExplodingFrogs
The list already has exclusivity. You are vastly underestimating the number of Works on this wiki.

Regarding the shows without capsule descriptions: they had capsule descriptions before being deleted. Wiki Magic would, presumably, ensure that they would have them again.

To put it bluntly, you jumped the gun and "solved" a problem that didn't actually exist. Certainly not as far as anyone other than yourself was concerned. This is not a basis on which to make such a big change to the page. Fast Eddie gets to make those kinds of decisions unilaterally because he's a mod—don't try to do his job for him. That way lies only Edit War.
SomeGuy
09:44:41 PM May 10th 2010
edited by SomeGuy
I did solve one problem that actually existed- the conflating of the 2050 wik work with the 3800 wik work. It still strikes me as very silly that for the sake of tabulation we were considering works with roughly the twice the exposure of those below them as being like entities.

The Trope Overdosed section at present is about one page scroll long. I think that's about as long as one of these sections can get before we run into tldr. Any longer and it just looks like an index with a hodge-podge of works from across the board. I'd argue that the 2000+ Trope Overdosed section has about as good a cross-section of popular/niche as we'd get from 1000+ anyway going by percentages. Avatar, Nanoha, and Order Of The Stick are not what I'd call "mainstream popular", nor would I say that of Buffy or Warhammer.

I do agree on one point- I don't have authority in the sense Fast Eddie does, but I consider it more than likely that he would have simply deleted the entries again anyway. Be that as it may, this really is getting to be a lengthy, forum-style discussion. I've written my piece- take it as you will, but I'm done here. Belian has the right idea- further discussion should take place in the forums. That's your best chance at reaching a consensus that won't be discarded by administrative fiat.
insofar
09:56:21 PM May 10th 2010
Any list is going to be tldr. That's just the nature of the beast. This page, as far as I can see, serves to catalog - and if we're not cataloging anything but the already known and mainstream works, what is the point of the page then?
Frank75
06:12:39 AM May 11th 2010
Some things, in no particular order:

1. @Some Guy: I have a watchlist, but I don't check it every day. Especially not for a page like Trope Overdosed, which I used to update... not every other week.

2. Trope Overdosed was supposed to be about pages which have a lot of tropes. Theoretically, with the new page categorization system we may even find a way to calculate how many wicks from tropes (as opposed to other pages) a work really gets. It was never supposed to measure what the mainstream likes, since tropers may have other preferations. And while I'm not a Buffy fan myself, we maybe shouldn't forget that this wiki started with Buffy, AFAIK.

3. Yep, the list was pretty long at the end. IMO justified though - TV Tropes nowadays has more than 50k pages. Of course Trope Overdosed is going to be longer than it was when the wiki just had 5k pages. As a personal guess, Trope Overdosed may double its length if the wiki becomes four times bigger (rule of square).

4. The change still came pretty fast. Shouldn't we have discussed this at least for three days before, like for a YKTTW?

5. If people want to expand the list in the future, they may want to check pages first which were cut now from the list. So I made Archive.Trope Overdosed (essentially the old list before the cut) to allow people this.

Belian
08:09:57 AM May 11th 2010
1.Understandable

2 and 3. I like your logic

4. You would have to talk to Some Guy and/or Fast Eddie. I brought up the issue of it being out of date in the forums, this solution was proposed, and within the day acted on. Though not without some thought on the matter.

5. I'll be adding that archive link to the main page now. Much easier then going down through the history to find the information.
ExplodingFrogs
12:41:22 PM May 11th 2010
edited by ExplodingFrogs
So, what I'm getting from this is that Some Guy is actually the only one who wanted the Overdosed category to require more than 1000 hits, and he's also the only one against changing it back to 1000+. Is that correct?
Belian
01:06:47 PM May 11th 2010
edited by Belian
Mostly yes, but these sorts of questions are exactly why I keep trying to move the conversation to the forum ;-)

And Some Guy agrees with me:

"...this really is getting to be a lengthy, forum-style discussion. I've written my piece- take it as you will, but I'm done here. Belian has the right idea- further discussion should take place in the forums. That's your best chance at reaching a consensus that won't be discarded by administrative fiat.
ExplodingFrogs
01:21:39 PM May 11th 2010
edited by ExplodingFrogs
...Perhaps this discussion has caused a certain amount of bias for me, but I'm inclined to take anything Some Guy says about admins with a grain of salt. More importantly, that thread seems to have died, whereas this discussion is still active.

Edit: Apparently, I spoke too soon.
Darkmane
01:39:39 AM Aug 3rd 2010
edited by Darkmane
@ Belian:

There is a simple way to accurately determine the number of references: Just Use Google.

Go to Google (advanced search), type the name of the show in the This exact wording or phrase column, then, in the Search within site or domain column put "http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/". (Don't just put "http://tvtropes.org/" 'cause if so the search will spit out forum threads, discussion pages, and every other useless bit of data that doesn't count.)

The result will show the exact number of tropes used by the show referenced here.

Here's an example for Buffy:

That's the link showing the first results

And here's the link showing the LAST results, I browsed that far to confirm that all the results were trope pages.

A similar search for "Batman" spits out a whopping eight fucking thousand results, whereas "Airbender" gives around 3,500. Most of the list here is correct, although I haven't checked all of them.

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batfan
topic
03:53:14 PM Apr 29th 2010
edited by batfan
I'm moving Batman up to the Trope Saturated section. The Main/Batman page has over 2000 wicks, Batman The Animated Series has over 1000 wicks, and all of the other comics, movies, and shows more than make up for the other 1000, including Batman Beyond's 600+, Batman Arkham Asylum's 200+, The Dark Knight Saga's 150+, the Adam West Series' 200, and The Joker's 197. And note: I'm rounding down, to account for redundant wicks (i.e. pages referencing each other, the character sheet, tropes with the name Batman in them, etc). And that still leaves hundreds of wicks for all the individual comics like The Killing Joke and The Dark Knight Returns. I'm noting the change here in case anyone wants to despute me, but I think it's time The Goddamn Batman took his rightful place among the most Trope Overdosed franchises.
SomeGuy
04:43:33 PM Apr 29th 2010
edited by SomeGuy
Actually, it occurs to me that with a series like Batman, we could probably get an accurate Trope Overdosed count by using a body text search (found in the Tools sidebar). Any article that references Batman will probably include his name at some point, and since body text search is a single search function, we wouldn't get any duplicates.

...Body text search yields 4628 articles, so Batman is good for Trope Saturated. For future reference, we're doing it alphabetically now, so that means it goes to the top. Also, there's nothing stopping you from adding more description after the Batman Pot Hole.

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SomeGuy
topic
04:47:29 PM Apr 29th 2010
edited by SomeGuy
Using the above methodology I've demoted Final Fantasy to Trope Overloaded, as a body text search of Final Fantasy yields only 2864 hits, compared to a "related to" search yielding 1649 hits, implying that a lot of Final Fantasy references on the wiki are duplicated across games.

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SalFishFin
topic
01:47:50 PM May 10th 2010
Pardon me if this is a double post. I searched the page for "ratio" and "percent" and found nothing.

I was recently thinking about "Trope Density," that is the number of pages the work shows up on vs. the number of episodes it has. Could we make that work here?
insofar
02:45:12 PM May 10th 2010
We have Example Explanation Density, but I'm not sure that's what you're looking for.
AnonymousMcCartneyfan
08:37:09 PM May 10th 2010
What we're talking about is the recognition that it's more impressive when Firefly (13 episodes, 1 movie, maybe a few comix) gets Trope Overdosed than when something like Star Trek (which has six series, four of which have over 100 episodes, as well as 11 movies) does.

That is, the ratio of amount of work to tropes listed for the work.

We used to routinely note how many items might be creating the links, but our sole formal acknowledgment was having a separate category for films that had fewer than two sequels — which by definition should be harder to overdose than most other media.

Doing this properly would range from difficult to impossible. Perhaps we could measure TV by the episode, or by the hour; if we do it by the hour, we might be able to make a comparison between TV, film, and videogames, which are all part of the recording arts. Printed media — literature and comics — would go by the page. But there is no good way to compare films and TV with books and comics. Okay, maybe you could use the audiobook to convert books to hours, assuming you can find an unabridged one. But nobody's gonna make an audio graphic novel!
insofar
08:56:39 PM May 10th 2010
Yeah, that used to be part of this page already. Fast Eddie cut it, so if anything, it would need to be a separate article.

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SchizoTechnician
topic
01:27:32 PM Aug 15th 2010
I think its time to up the qualification numbers for each, or add a new, larger category on top- considering that apparently there's room for a gap of over 8,000 wicks embedded in the current largest category, I think there's some room to break things up.
OldManHoOh
10:57:10 AM Aug 16th 2010
Should we move the minimum qualification for Overdosed up?
SchizoTechnician
11:00:08 AM Aug 16th 2010
If we do, we'd need to move the minimum qualification for everything up, or there would be too large a gap.
OldManHoOh
11:09:07 AM Aug 16th 2010
Kind of what I meant.
SchizoTechnician
11:13:55 AM Aug 16th 2010
right... The question is, do we want to continue having the minimum bar at 1000? If we do, we should just add a larger category on top, about 8000, I'd say. If not, we have to work out how to change the categories, geometric or arithmetic and the quantities by which to multiply each category- maybe even logarithmic, with the lower categories getting a smaller increase in minimums...

I think adding an 8000 category is the least labor-intensive measure, and requires the least debate and deliberation.
OldManHoOh
11:28:29 AM Aug 16th 2010
The %comments% in the page says that there should be no more than three sections. Should we remove the 1000+ section?
SchizoTechnician
11:34:05 AM Aug 16th 2010
huh... didn't notice that. Makes things easier

In that case, yeah, I'd just go multiplicative X2 and go with 2000, 4000, and 8000.
Game_Fan
07:00:27 PM Aug 17th 2010
Where does the idea that there are things that hit the 8000 level coming from? I just went through all of the stuff in the 4000+ part and only a few things have even hit 6000 and least one (Stargate) doesn't even reach 1000 hits.
OldManHoOh
07:14:49 PM Aug 17th 2010
Umm, the Stargate series has 4,293 in all. SG-1 alone has 2,369.
Game_Fan
07:25:03 PM Aug 17th 2010
Ah, I just checked the links for each title.
Game_Fan
07:32:45 PM Aug 17th 2010
edited by Game_Fan
Still, just how many series actually have 8000 hits?
SchizoTechnician
07:34:53 PM Aug 17th 2010
edited by SchizoTechnician
Perhaps 8000 is too high. The problem is, if you look at the page history of Old Man Ho Oh's edits, at least two series do go beyond it. And any category containing examples more than twice the quantity of things in the same category is a little too broad for accuracy, the genesis of the idea of a fourth category in the first place.

And the top category only had five or less until recently, remember. Its sudden stuffiness is what prompted the idea of changing requirements.
Goldfritha
06:03:35 PM Dec 6th 2010
Create a new category and you create incentive to Entry Pimp more stuff into it.
OldManHoOh
06:11:40 PM Dec 6th 2010
As pointed out before, there's a warning in place not to outright add a new category. No idea what the rules are for inflating the pre-existing one.

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UBourgeois
topic
02:27:56 PM Sep 12th 2010
I was thinking of adding Homestuck to Overloaded, but then I thought maybe I should just add MS Paint Adventures as an entry, despite the fact that Homestuck is Overloaded in its own right and none of the others are. Thoughts?
OldManHoOh
02:54:24 PM Sep 12th 2010
I think MS Paint Adventures is the right entry to add if Homestuck is a subset of it.

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OldManHoOh
topic
10:47:40 AM Sep 13th 2010
Would other Middle-earth stories like The Hobbit and The Silmarillion count as part of The Lord of the Rings?
SchizoTechnician
11:06:16 AM Sep 13th 2010
Yeah, I think we should group Tolkein's Legendarium together as one entry; we've done the same with other metaseries containing multiple distinct units (Mega Man, Power Rangers, Transformers etc.)
OldManHoOh
11:10:24 AM Sep 13th 2010
Does the series have an encompassing super-series like Power Rangers though? Or do we need to make a page?
SchizoTechnician
11:12:02 AM Sep 13th 2010
The Silmarillion pretty much is the encompassing superseries. The Hobbit and The Lord Of The Rings are simply very, very, very, very expanded versions of the last chapter.
Micah
06:44:10 PM Sep 14th 2010
It is in the sense that the book The Silmarillion contains the plot of everything, but "The Silmarillion" is not a good title to give to all of Tolkien's legendarium.

In the absence of a better idea, I've stuck it under "Tolkien's legendarium".

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UBourgeois
topic
09:15:07 AM Nov 29th 2010
Would the collective works of Shakespeare be an acceptable entry? I'm certain that his works constitute at least an Overload, maybe a Saturated, all together, but I'm wondering if common authorship is an acceptable excuse for grouping.
UBourgeois
09:32:22 AM Nov 29th 2010
For reference, the page for William Shakespeare has 1228 references, while his plays collectively have 3052, which would make him either Overloaded or Saturated, depending on how you count it.
OldManHoOh
09:43:04 AM Nov 29th 2010
Considering they're only linked through an author, I'd say no.
UBourgeois
09:56:31 AM Nov 29th 2010
It's just that Shakespeare is such a literary giant and his works are identified almost more often as a Shakespeare play than works in their own right. Plus, something seems right about having Shakespeare in the Saturated section.
Goldfritha
05:42:04 PM Dec 2nd 2010
Why should being linked through an author not make them saturated? It would be unusual to be sure, but that's because he has a unusual number of links.

(Having checked the old page, I will note, however, that Terry Pratchett and some others also qualify by that criterion.)
Goldfritha
05:30:45 PM Dec 3rd 2010
edited by Goldfritha
In fact, if you add the Lovecraft links to Cthulhu Mythos, you get Trope Overdosed. Hmm. Are all Lovecraft's work under the mythos?
UBourgeois
05:06:16 PM Dec 18th 2010
Not all Lovecraft is Cthulhu. Most is not, in fact.
CounterBlitzkrieg
11:06:39 AM Mar 6th 2011
Just because a group of works have a common author doesn't make them in the same series. It has to be connected in some canon ways. Each of the plays should be listed individually, if there are any of his works that is Trope Overdosed that is.

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Goldfritha
topic
05:38:12 PM Dec 2nd 2010
The link at the bottom of the page? To the Python script?

Doesn't work when I click on it.
Frank75
05:24:25 AM Dec 20th 2010
Seems the forum discussion expired. Posted it again and fixed the link.

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189.180.188.217
topic
01:08:20 PM Feb 12th 2011
Should Naruto be Saturated with 4001 tropes according to related searches, or the just for fun entries do not count?
OldManHoOh
01:17:43 PM Feb 12th 2011
Simply states the number in "related to", so, no, it's fine.

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Sen
topic
04:35:37 PM Feb 19th 2011
I'm pretty sure Earth Bound should be on this list because it has at least 1000 'related's (and not because my growing obsession with this game is making me an Entry Pimp what gave you that idea), but I don't want to put it in the wrong place... which category should it go in?
OldManHoOh
05:01:06 PM Feb 19th 2011
The series doesn't really have a "superseries" page, unlike, say The Legend Of Zelda or Super Mario Bros, which kind of complicates things. But yes, if it has 1000+ relateds it goes.
Grobi
02:09:00 PM Apr 24th 2011
Someone really needs to create a Franchise-page; I'd do it myself - but I never even played these games (I'm German, so: No Export For Me).

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JBK405
topic
09:26:31 PM Feb 26th 2011
edited by JBK405
I added Batman The Animated Series to the list as an independent entry, separate from the all-encompassing Batman which is actually the very first entry right now (Yay alphabet!) because it earned the position all on its own, with ~1,500 links by itself to its own page. However, I'm wondering if the "The DCAU" should also be added.

The page for the DCAU does not qualify, it only has ~500 links to itself, but if you count all the pages for shows that are in the DCAU you've got over 4,000 not even counting the original Batman series; with B:TAS it goes to over 5,500, and I haven't even gotten into the movies yet, not to mention the "Do they count or not" shows.

Should the DCAU be added as a whole, or not? I can think of arguments either way (It's one single shared universe, like Star Wars, but it's also divided up into separate and independent work pages).

EDIT: Oh, and according to Google DCAU appears on at least 2,800 pages, so I guess it does qualify all on its own.
Benne
11:30:48 PM Mar 16th 2011
This is a debate worth having. I think the DCAU is overdosed enough to be on the list, but is having so much of the universe involved with Batman and Superman, with their own over-arching entries, enough to keep it off? Or are the various Justice League entries enough to make it qualify?

I'd love to hear other opinions.

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Grobi
topic
04:19:35 AM Apr 25th 2011
Added Assassins Creed and Baldurs Gate; someone who played the games should add a description.

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Clevomon
topic
09:47:45 AM Apr 28th 2011
Added Higurashi and Umineko to Trope Overdosed. Each has more than 1000 on its own. However, they might want to be combined into the When They Cry franchise. I'm not sure. Most of the time, the series are referred to independently, so I didn't do it. If we do put them together as When They Cry, they might need to be bumped up a rank. There's a good amount of overlap between the tropes, though, so I'm not certain.
Grobi
10:17:55 AM Apr 29th 2011
Deleted; like Paper Mario, Persona, Final Fantasy etc., they're part of a bigger franchise already on this list. Won't mind putting them to Saturated, though (only if they fit, of course).

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evilsebs
topic
07:06:27 AM May 14th 2011
edited by evilsebs
My mistake, sorry

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Grobi
topic
06:51:43 AM May 18th 2011
I don't quite get the last changes. Neon Genesis Evangelion has (combined with Rebuild Of Evangelion) more than 4000 entries, same goes for Mass Effect and its subpages (especially Mass Effect 2). There aren't any edit-reasons either. I'd like to revert these changes, however if someone is able to explain these edits (perhaps we did raise the wicks-minimum for saturated works and I just didn't get the memo...), that would be great.
Benne
12:11:06 AM May 25th 2011
Eva got moved back to Saturated, as it should. I'll do the same with Mass Effect.

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lightning37
topic
07:59:26 PM May 29th 2011
edited by lightning37
How many pages has iCarly been listed on? And how much more does it need before it can be added to the list? I figured it would have been mentioned on more than enough pages by now...

edit: nevermind, just saw that it was added two days ago.

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Grobi
topic
11:31:41 AM Jun 11th 2011
Is Blaz Blue overdosed? I'm not familiar with the series, so I'm hesitant to add it, but it does have more than 1000 wicks, I think.
Benne
11:32:13 PM Jun 14th 2011
I'm not familiar with the series, but with over 1,000 wicks it definitely qualifies. Seeing that it's a Spiritual Successor to Guilty Gear (itself with over 700 wicks), I'll add it on the list under the Guilty Gear umbrella, which is standard procedure around here.
Grobi
04:57:46 AM Jun 15th 2011
edited by Grobi
That's... not the best idea, I think. Just because they're Spiritual Successors, we should not lump two different franchises together.

I mean, Pokemon is a Spiritual Successor to the Mother-Series, but they still deserve their own entries.

EDIT: And if the rumors about a proper Guilty Gear-sequel are true, the series WILL become overdosed soon enough.

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Grobi
topic
10:00:11 AM Jul 4th 2011
What about Xenogears/Xenosaga/Xenoblade? Combined, they have clearly more than 1000 wicks - though they probably need a franchise-page first...
NorthernDruid
06:26:05 PM Sep 17th 2011
I'm pretty sure Xenoblade is only borrowing the name, so not sure if it counts. Find out about that first.

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Grobi
topic
07:07:38 AM Jul 6th 2011
Many changes, this may take a while:

Whew. I really hope my changes weren't too drastic, especially regarding Sluggy Freelance and Mortal Kombat (just barely more than 2000). Please PM me if I was too quick.

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EarlOfSandvich
topic
02:31:28 AM Jul 7th 2011
edited by EarlOfSandvich
I'm kind of thinking: Half Life and Portal are both within the same universe, yet play like different games (first person perspective aside). Out of curiousity, would they be classified as one (sending the Half Life universe to the Overloaded catefory)?
Alynnidalar
10:16:01 PM Jul 22nd 2011
Also, by looking at the "related to" page, Half-Life gets 674 links while Half Life has 1542. Adding them together, as both are equally valid names for the series, Half-Life has over 2000, so shouldn't it be bumped up a category anyway?
OldManHoOh
03:29:10 AM Jul 23rd 2011
edited by OldManHoOh
No. No. I made that mistake before. Half-Life's final number includes that of the redirects.
EarlOfSandvich
03:17:22 AM Jul 24th 2011
edited by EarlOfSandvich
Although I have to say that was rather odd, since the "Half Life" menu doesn't seem to specifically list "Half-Life" as a redirect...

And come to think... with acknowledgments and in-game references aside, there really isn't much of a connection between Half Life and Portal, so... I'll just leave them as they are...

And speaking of universes, I guess we gotta have a "Motherverse" page for Earth Bound/Mother 3/Earthbound Zero

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Grobi
topic
06:23:13 AM Aug 6th 2011
Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross are on more than 2000 pages; move to Trope Overloaded or not?
EarlOfSandvich
09:15:48 AM Aug 8th 2011
edited by EarlOfSandvich
That might work, and Radical Dreamers would technically be part of that as well. However, many fans of Chrono Trigger tend to treat Chrono Cross as a Dis Continuity. They may be in the same universe, but the case of it being overloaded would be up to debate (as much as I love Chrono Cross).

PS - Well... going to do it anyhow...
Grobi
01:11:44 PM Aug 8th 2011
I didn't know that Fanon Discontinuity is a valid reason to remove a title from this List. Chrono Cross is a sequel. Deal with it.
EarlOfSandvich
04:11:25 PM Aug 8th 2011
Already did. :P

Quite a bit of Battlestar Galactica was that way and Deus Ex is on my waiting list yet the second game felt that way.
NorthernDruid
06:28:51 PM Sep 17th 2011
Whether the fans like it or not, Chrono Cross is a sequel to Trigger.

Radical Dreamers would also count as an alternate continuity i think.

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EarlOfSandvich
topic
09:51:11 PM Sep 22nd 2011
edited by EarlOfSandvich
With the Monty Python revision* , this got me thinking a little... what about pages like The Beatles and That Guy With The Glasses?

For the former, they are an influential band, but aside from the main page itself (which is in itself an artist page of sorts), there isn't any of their output that can reach this category.

For the latter, it is a collective website of several reviewers filling in various niches. I know they have intercontinuity crossovers, and not just in the anniversary specials, but would that be enough to keep the entire site on the Saturated category?
EarlOfSandvich
10:40:55 AM Oct 21st 2011
edited by EarlOfSandvich
A couple other things I find rather ambiguous: including websites (like You Tube) and including retellings/takes of a certain work to said work. To me, that would be like lumping Hook with Peter Pan, or AI Artificial Intelligence with Pinocchio: a stretch.

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EarlOfSandvich
topic
10:11:53 AM Jan 15th 2012
edited by EarlOfSandvich
Updated the page again (this time on everything already existing on the page).

Prmoted to Saturated:

Moved to Overloaded:

Promoted to Overdosed:
  • God Of War (just after getting its thousandth wick)

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