Main Trans Sexual Discussion

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11:44:32 PM Sep 15th 2016
What are some gender neutral pronouns I can use when refering to trans people?
10:31:21 PM Dec 16th 2016
Use They/Them. It's gender neutral, and so works for pretty much any situation.

PS. (For some reason, a lot of people assume that They/Them for a singular person isn't grammatically correct, but it totally is. People might point out that while you say "He goes to the store", you wouldn't say "They goes to the store". It's just the grammar working slightly differently, it's "They *go* to the store in this case.

I'm mainly just clarifying that in the PS because, again, people tend to assume the wrong thing sometimes. I hope it makes sense!)
11:37:12 PM Jul 9th 2016
edited by NordRonnoc
If I recall correctly, transsexual is not the correct term used for transgender people. Gender and sexuality are two different things, IIRC.

"An older term that originated in the medical and psychological communities. Still preferred by some people who have permanently changed - or seek to change - their bodies through medical interventions (including but not limited to hormones and/or surgeries). Unlike transgender, transsexual is not an umbrella term. Many transgender people do not identify as transsexual and prefer the word transgender. It is best to ask which term an individual prefers. If preferred, use as an adjective: transsexual woman or transsexual man."

11:13:45 AM Jul 10th 2016
edited by MagBas
really, despite the "cultural" meaning of gender being one of the possiblble meaning of sexuality following the wiktionary , the only definition of transsexual there involves change of the biological gender.
01:35:05 AM Feb 4th 2017
So, by now the entire article has been (correctly, IMO) rewritten to transgender, but the main lemma is still Transsexual with Transgender only linking to it. Why?
08:12:12 AM Nov 28th 2015
The same edit that removed the use of "trap" also seems to have eliminated every instance of the term "new-half" as well. Was this intentional? I don't see any discussion of it here, and I'm unsure if it is considered equally derogatory and worthy of removal. More importantly, it causes problems with the one example I added to this page, the Frozen Half from Castlevania, because that term's use in the monster gallery is the most direct evidence of the character designer's intent.
06:48:48 AM Dec 2nd 2014
So Transsexual is an out dated word. The new, more politically correct one would be transgender. Editing the entire page to reflect the growing option that transsexual is an offensive word is quite the task, expectantly since in older media the word comes up so frequently. I purpose changing the page to reflect the more modern, respectful language, with a note about how older works use transsexual because it was seen as correct back then.
06:51:44 AM Dec 2nd 2014
Actually, I just found the transgender page. I don't thing that both pages need to exist.
06:56:21 AM Dec 2nd 2014
Though, I would definitely either take "tanny" off, or state that it's a slur. Because it is a slur but most cisgender people don't seem to know that (or care).
09:36:30 AM Dec 2nd 2014
I am fairly dubious on this effort. I'd like to see you discuss it before changing things unilaterally - as far as I know, transgender and transsexual are both accepted terms.
12:34:19 PM Dec 2nd 2014
I'm not really sure what there is to discuss. I've been apart of the transgender activist movement for about five years now, and ever since I've joined the term has been considered to be "not ideal". As more time passed (and transgender became a more and more popular substitute) it's started to be viewed as both rude and offensive. Any credible source explaining LGBT+ issues only has transsexual as a foot note of, "This is what the older generations called these people, but the word is no considered out dated and offensive". Besides, the transgender page has a much more in-depth explanation anyway, including the side note that transsexual is no longer correct usage.
12:42:59 PM Dec 2nd 2014
Ah so. Well, I have never heard of transsexual to be offensive, and I see that Wikipedia has two different pages for it. With that in mind I'll have to say no to these edits.
12:55:42 PM Dec 2nd 2014
A one word (or, really, two word edit, as transgender is an adjective and transsexual is a noun) edit to be more inclusive and maintain political correctness?
07:44:59 AM Jul 27th 2015
I, too, find it jarring that the page is still titled "Transexual" - especially since the very first word, in bold font, of the article is the more-inclusive "transgender".

Transsexual is a term that is most often used to refer to a transgender person who has undergone some form of gender-affirming surgery. While it's by no means an "un-PC" term, it is a more specific one, when the article itself applied to the entire spectrum of transgender topics.

I appreciate that the Useful Notes page is listed under the "Transgender" banner, I just wish that this page could also be brought in line with that one. Especially given that my argumentation for "transgender" versus "transsexual" is echoed in that article, but not followed through on the main page, which seems a bit... odd.
12:20:53 AM Jul 28th 2015
Might be something to ask for here.
11:35:51 PM Jul 9th 2016
If I recall correctly, transsexual refers to a sexual preference towards transgender people.
11:39:49 PM Apr 26th 2017
I've added a proposal to the Trope Repair Shop.
01:22:41 PM Apr 27th 2017
Aaaaaand the proposal was point-blank rejected, and apparently this is not the first time...
06:59:11 AM Oct 12th 2014
Since this is obviously a very sensitive topic I didn't dare to edit it right away, but what I'm going to talk about is the term "trap." As far as I understand, "trap" is hardly proper LBGT -terminology, and most often I've seen it used in context of anime and manga, nothing else.

Basically it means a male character that looks and acts like a lady or in a rare inversion, a female character that looks like a guy, and the whole "trap" part originated from the notion that when people thought they were crushing on an attractive female character they were actually crushing on a guy, so, essentially being conned or "trapped" by the series author when they out the character some time later.

So, basically, what I'm trying to say that the definition should mention this being a very specific term predominantly used by anime/manga enthusiasts, and not really a proper way to refer to someone in real life.
06:41:44 AM Dec 2nd 2014
That word is considered a slur by most trans women (though not quite as bad as the T-slur. Like the relationship between the n-word and the word "negro") and I think this dehumanizing nature should be highlighted, or the word removed entirely.
12:26:39 AM May 30th 2015
I've only ever seen trap used either in fetish porn or as a derogatory way to refer to people who don't abide by gender roles. Given that the very description says it's used by drag queens (who aren't trans) and it links to knowyourmeme of all things, I think it can safely be deleted.
12:53:42 AM Jul 6th 2014
Would the Culture fit on this list, seeing as in the fictional 'verse it is seen as the norm for a person to change sex at least once in their life? The transition takes some months, so it's not exactly easy sex change, and there are still connotations carried by the genders, but connotation changes with the person.
01:25:39 AM Jul 6th 2014
Seems like it would fit.
09:45:24 PM Oct 12th 2012
Does "Princess Cookie" from Adventure Time really fit? All its themes seemed coincidental to me.
07:01:12 PM Sep 16th 2012
In the trans* tropes I never found a trope for non-binary gender identities. There should be one. Most characters that are genderfluid or agender get tagged with the Transsexual trope and then have their gender identity added as a side note.
06:45:14 AM Dec 2nd 2014
I agree. One of the things that's really shaped my personal writing is the relationship between published literature with non-binary characters and then the way those characters are described on here. It's a very touchy subject, and one of the things that worries me about it, is that their is no trope for "male character" or "female character" or "black guy" while there are tropes like "Action Guy" and tropes that evoke both a gender and the role / personality of the character. So I think there should be a collection of non-binary tropes. But considering that their isn't even one... It's a bit of a train wreck. Though it's also the issue that finally pushed me to join this website, as it's one that I want to see done right and respectfully.
12:49:19 PM Nov 29th 2011
A couple of things... Shouldn't Kafka on the Shore, as a novel, be in Literature, rather than Anime & Manga? Also, no Wendy Carlos in music?
02:50:23 AM Nov 30th 2011
Is it a "Visual Novel?" I think we have different and/or unsettled ways of filing those (there's a Visual Novels section on this page, but I'm not sure there should be.)

As for Wendy Carlos, feel free to add her as an example!
06:20:30 AM Apr 29th 2011
Tales Of Mu was recently added as an example. I'm unfamiliar with the work, but it sounds more like a magic-based Gender Bender example than truly Transsexual. Can anyone confirm or deny?
12:44:59 PM Feb 15th 2011
I removed this re: Transamerica
  • This transsexual (MTF) troper disagrees. This movie seemed more like a cissexual's idea of our experience than an authentic transsexual experience.

I removed it for This Troper problems, but I'd like to see Twilight Princess rewrite the example. Properly, it should be on one line, along the lines of:

  • Transamerica is seen as a realistic portrayal by many, but others differ, pointing to X, Y, and Z as reasons.

I'm curious as to what the reasons are. One that jumps out at me is that the majority of transsexuals don't end up looking like genetic females of the sort that get paid millions of dollars to star in Hollywood features, but there may be others.

Also, it might properly be an example for Easy Sex Change, if I'm reading your implications correctly.
01:45:36 PM Feb 17th 2011
I wouldn't consider Transamerica to be an good example for Easy Sex Change, I just found the content to be very stereotypical. For example, the way Bree walks and talks and wears makeup feels to be designed to highlight her inherit masculinity, and made the character seem much more like a characterture than an actual transsexual woman.

Also, the whole plot with her therapist is a good example for Did Not Do The Research, as the WPATH SOC (also called the 'Standards of Care', the guidelines used by many health care professionals to determine who can/cannot have genital surgery) do not mention anything about family relations. If Bree had been living full-time as long as the movie seemed to imply, it would have been much easier for her to find other therapists and acquire the letter she needed than to embark on the adventure that was required for the plot.
03:27:10 PM Sep 13th 2010
Regarding the Video Games/ Persona 4 entry, someone commented:
  • That's more like a transvestite, surely?

Perhaps someone who knows the game can clarify. It sounds to me like the "real" character is a crossdresser (or maybe just "mannish" in attitude and style?) But only her "shadow" character is actually a pre-op transsexual? (Though it sounds like she still qualifies for the trope, since if I understand the descriptions of the game on Shadow Archetype, those would represent some sort of inner desire?)
06:30:43 PM Oct 6th 2010
Naoto dressed like a man and tried to disguise her voice (poorly). For the most part? Her shadow talked about how she felt disrespected or wasn't taken seriously. Being a detective is a man's business, no one's going to listen to a high schooler, much less a girl, or at least that's how she saw it.
03:58:26 AM Oct 7th 2010
So it sounds like she wouldn't really fit this trope, then?
07:54:26 AM Oct 8th 2010
From what I can tell, no.
01:53:23 PM Feb 17th 2011
There's a lot of disagreement among fans about whether Naoto actually is trans, but as far as I know there's not a definite answer given in game, but it seems to point more towards that she's not. The general consensus is that she's some form of gendequeer, but its' hard to pin down.
06:39:30 AM Aug 22nd 2010
edited by loracarol
Regarding the Adam character on the De Grassi show: could someone clarify in the example whether Adam is FtM or MtF?
08:01:11 AM Aug 22nd 2010
Reading the Degrassi article, I found out Adam is FtM (exact words in the article are "Adam was born Gracie").
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