Main Trans Sexual Discussion

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Jenzzyuk
Topic
03:06:25 AM Aug 15th 2017
in the section about Transexuals on tv it says that Beiste came out as Transgender in the 7th season of glee when it was glee season 6
vurren
Topic
02:52:31 PM Jun 28th 2017
should this trope name be changed to transgender? transsexual is an outdated term by today's standards, and since the actual description says "transgender", shouldnt the title match?
MagBas
07:00:25 PM Jun 28th 2017
edited by MagBas
Following the edit history, the description was changed by the troper Liliet in 26th Apr '15.
MicroGodrad
04:01:04 PM Jun 30th 2017
That's better, but the trope name itself should still be changed to transgender, and transsexual should redirect to it, rather than vice versa, which is what it is now.
GeheimnisGoth
02:35:21 AM Jul 6th 2017
From what I've seen below it looks like it was proposed and rejected, but I also think the trope name should be changed to Transgender, with transsexual being as you already pointed out, an outdated (and to many of us offensive) term. Hopefully with enough of a push for it, this can be changed to reflect the preferred term (and as an actual trans person I will back this effort whenever possible).

Also in case it needs to be said, Transsexual is indeed viewed negatively by a lot of us because it implies it's either a sexual orientation or somehow tied to a sexual orientation and thus to sexual organs, while the word Transgender has no inherent connection, with Gender and Sexual Orientation both being separate unrelated identities, thus letting people know we're still trans whether there's change physically or not.
Icarael
08:00:23 AM Jul 12th 2017
I'd push for it as well, not only because of those reasons but because the Useful Notes page is "Transgender" while the main is "Transsexual", whereas other tropes with Useful Notes pages have the same name (see: Cult, Trigger).
martyrcomplex
03:00:34 PM Jul 13th 2017
it's been repeatedly rejected from the trope repair shop—at least once because a cisgender moderator decided he didn't think "transsexual" was an unacceptable/offensive word to transgender people

still, i think it's worth posting it again

Larkmarn
05:52:01 AM Jul 14th 2017
^^ Actually, it's generally better for Useful Notes pages to have distinct names so that people don't conflate the two and treat the useful notes page as a trope (see how Mai.Trigger has been moved to Main.Trauma Button for that exact reason).

^ Generally, moves for large pages don't happen unless there's evidence of serious misuse, and this page has a huge number of inbounds and a lot of wicks so the criteria for moving it is really high. In the past I've been passively against moving it since it's essentially making a special case for this page but the request has been made so many times at this point that I just say do it... but that said, the people clamoring for it should help out in the work of moving the wicks (there's over a thousand). If someone thinks it's a problem enough to demand change but not help out, I'd be rather miffed.
GeheimnisGoth
11:29:05 PM Jul 18th 2017
edited by GeheimnisGoth
Incidentally, even the Useful Notes talks about Transsexual vs Transgender and straight-up states that "transsexual" is a more stigmatising, outdated term and most of us prefer the term "transgender".

I, and almost every single person that I know who are also trans, hate the word "transsexual" and find it demeaning, offensive, and outdated. I don't mind the concept of having the Main/ and Useful Notes/ pages having different names, but in this context, I think it's better to have them both called Transgender until or unless a better alternative to "transsexual" is discussed and decided on.

As to wicks, there are a pretty huge amount of wicks for this page. It's definitely something that can be done, it's not quite an unreasonable amount. But you are right that it's going to be a bit of a barrier to having the name changed.
MagBas
05:13:14 AM Jul 19th 2017
edited by MagBas
The word Trans serves as a better alternative?
Larkmarn
06:26:40 AM Jul 19th 2017
Definitely ought to at least be a redirect. I'm surprised it's not. Also going to throw out Transgendered since that's clearly an adjective form (thus in a character sheet describing a character, it'd fit in pretty well)?
GeheimnisGoth
09:30:27 PM Jul 19th 2017
edited by GeheimnisGoth
"Trans" is a good alternative but usually only when the context is already clear. As a page name or anything like that, I personally wouldn't recommend it, but that's just me. It probably needs to be looked into more or discussed more with more people.

"Transgendered" adjective form is also considered wrong, to some offensive. It gives a connotation of being a disorder, and that the word "transgender" is a verb (thus giving unfortunate implications relating to physical transition, which the trans community wants to move away from) when it is already an adjective, so it isn't really necessary.

According to GLAAD, "The word transgender never needs the extraneous “ed” at the end of the word. In fact, such a construction is grammatically incorrect."

I can see where the mistake can easily be made, and according to Joanne Herman, Huff Po, "I have found that whenever “transgendered” is being used, it is usually by a person who is not transgender, or by an organization wanting to be inclusive of transgender people, but not yet having a transgender person involved."

It's not something you really know unless you're either trans yourself or very involved with the trans community enough to know these nuances, but for future understanding, it's generally considered to be the same as how, for example, people back in the 50s would say "coloured" but today we now say "people of colour". When it comes to "transgendered" vs "transgender person", we really don't mind the latter term; the former just has so many unfortunate implications.

Larkmarn
07:43:48 AM Jul 20th 2017
^ See that? Exactly the kind of information that Useful Notes pages are useful for.
zephyran
07:57:30 AM Jul 20th 2017
edited by zephyran
I agree that the page should be titled "Transgender", with "Transsexual", "Transgendered", and any other outdated or incorrect terms being redirected to it, for the reasons Geheimnis Goth gave. Not just saying this as a trans person, but also as someone who wants to see TV Tropes be as open and welcoming to all fans as possible.
GeheimnisGoth
11:29:13 PM Jul 21st 2017
I mean, it is indeed useful info for Useful Notes, but these are also legitimate grounded arguments that can be used to convince and/or educate others, including, hopefully, cisgender mods who wouldn't otherwise know any better.

I agree with zephyran, it's not just something I want to change because I'm trans, but also because I would like this site to be more inclusive and welcoming, and having the article that covers people like us being incorrectly and offensively named "Transsexual" is absolutely not that. It has wicks equalling little over 1000, which is a lot but not impossible. And it's most certainly worth it to keep this site up with the times.
martyrcomplex
03:03:13 AM Jul 29th 2017
i agree with goth and zephyran, yeah. i guess we'll need to find actual external references showing that the term transsexual is outdated, inaccurate, and in many cases offensive, because the word of actual transgender users does not appear to be enough proof
TheKaizerreich
09:13:48 AM Aug 5th 2017
Agreeing with a rename here (not just because I'm transgender myself). Transsexual is factually incorrect since your "sex" (i.e. biological chromosomes) is the same, your gender identity is not, and doesn't change whether you physically transition or not. It's just confusing right now.
GeheimnisGoth
11:20:07 PM Aug 19th 2017
There's actually a lot of discussion right now on the nature of sex and chromosomes themselves and how they shouldn't be defined as a rigid concept like "male body" or "female body" (this is brought up in the Terminology folder) but that's a topic for another discussion.

How would one go about submitting this to the Trope Repair Shop? The work can definitely be put in easily and it this page isn't too far gone on wicks to be entirely un-fixable. There's plenty of sound arguments with sources and more, and I don't know if the previous ones were made by actual trans people, but if an actual trans person like any of us who've posted here make our voices heard there, with the sources to back it up for even the most unshakeable of cisgender mods, we can hopefully make a convincing argument in favour of changing the page name. After all, TV Tropes has dealt with far worse (Exactly What it Says on the Tin comes to mind).
Larkmarn
06:11:16 AM Aug 21st 2017
^^ If we're going "factually correct," I think that a stronger argument is that, medically speaking, one is only considered transsexual if they've begun the gender-reassignment process.
TheKaizerreich
06:53:46 AM Aug 22nd 2017
As stated, I don't think "transsexual" is even applicable at all. Your biological sex is based on your chromosomes. Until we can actually change those with, uffff I dunno, Nano Machines for example, the word just doesn't have any validity at all.
GeheimnisGoth
11:43:08 AM Sep 20th 2017
Chromosomes aren't the end-all be-all anymore, though. Yes, the word "transsexual" doesn't have any validity, but there's really no such thing as a true "biological sex". The idea erases people born with XY chromosomes who grow up still with ovaries and all the "female" parts one wouldn't associate with them, and the same for those born with XX who produce more testostone naturally. Then there exist people with XXY or XYY or some other combination. And talking about the idea of a set-in-stone "biological sex" erases the entire existence of people who are intersex in general, and science has discovered that there's actually much more to determining someone's sex than just the base XX or XY stuff we're taught about in 6th grade.

Which is why I would avoid thinking about things as "biological" and more as a socio-psychological thing instead, because often, children born a certain way will be changed at birth to match what society perceives to be properly male or female (there literally exists a ruler to determine whether genitals should be chopped or not if they're not considered the right size), without the child's consent, and often this gets ignored and erased. There's plenty of people living their lives right now who have NO idea that they're intersex or have the "wrong" chromosomes than they think they do, all because of decisions made at birth.

This argument is a bit of a tangent, and I apologise for it, but I do want to educate where I can on all the most current scientific findings relating to trans people and extending to people who are intersex. "Transsexual" isn't just wrong because you can't change chromosomes, it's wrong because sex chromosomes don't even have a full say in determining what a person's body will be like, and is thus entirely removed from the equation on how to classify a trans person. It's the reason we say things now like "*Assigned* Male/Female at Birth" rather than "born male/female", because sex chromosomes don't have as much say as what the doctor/your parents assigned you to be at birth based on your genitalia, which aren't always 100% binary.
radnick104
Topic
11:44:32 PM Sep 15th 2016
What are some gender neutral pronouns I can use when refering to trans people?
Sirmat
10:31:21 PM Dec 16th 2016
Use They/Them. It's gender neutral, and so works for pretty much any situation.

PS. (For some reason, a lot of people assume that They/Them for a singular person isn't grammatically correct, but it totally is. People might point out that while you say "He goes to the store", you wouldn't say "They goes to the store". It's just the grammar working slightly differently, it's "They *go* to the store in this case.

I'm mainly just clarifying that in the PS because, again, people tend to assume the wrong thing sometimes. I hope it makes sense!)
NordRonnoc
Topic
11:37:12 PM Jul 9th 2016
edited by NordRonnoc
If I recall correctly, transsexual is not the correct term used for transgender people. Gender and sexuality are two different things, IIRC.

"An older term that originated in the medical and psychological communities. Still preferred by some people who have permanently changed - or seek to change - their bodies through medical interventions (including but not limited to hormones and/or surgeries). Unlike transgender, transsexual is not an umbrella term. Many transgender people do not identify as transsexual and prefer the word transgender. It is best to ask which term an individual prefers. If preferred, use as an adjective: transsexual woman or transsexual man."

http://www.glaad.org/reference/transgender

MagBas
11:13:45 AM Jul 10th 2016
edited by MagBas
really, despite the "cultural" meaning of gender being one of the possiblble meaning of sexuality following the wiktionary , the only definition of transsexual there involves change of the biological gender.
Cifer
01:35:05 AM Feb 4th 2017
So, by now the entire article has been (correctly, IMO) rewritten to transgender, but the main lemma is still Transsexual with Transgender only linking to it. Why?
FalconPain
Topic
08:12:12 AM Nov 28th 2015
The same edit that removed the use of "trap" also seems to have eliminated every instance of the term "new-half" as well. Was this intentional? I don't see any discussion of it here, and I'm unsure if it is considered equally derogatory and worthy of removal. More importantly, it causes problems with the one example I added to this page, the Frozen Half from Castlevania, because that term's use in the monster gallery is the most direct evidence of the character designer's intent.
DustySoul
Topic
06:48:48 AM Dec 2nd 2014
So Transsexual is an out dated word. The new, more politically correct one would be transgender. Editing the entire page to reflect the growing option that transsexual is an offensive word is quite the task, expectantly since in older media the word comes up so frequently. I purpose changing the page to reflect the more modern, respectful language, with a note about how older works use transsexual because it was seen as correct back then.
DustySoul
06:51:44 AM Dec 2nd 2014
Actually, I just found the transgender page. I don't thing that both pages need to exist.
DustySoul
06:56:21 AM Dec 2nd 2014
Though, I would definitely either take "tanny" off, or state that it's a slur. Because it is a slur but most cisgender people don't seem to know that (or care).
SeptimusHeap
09:36:30 AM Dec 2nd 2014
I am fairly dubious on this effort. I'd like to see you discuss it before changing things unilaterally - as far as I know, transgender and transsexual are both accepted terms.
DustySoul
12:34:19 PM Dec 2nd 2014
I'm not really sure what there is to discuss. I've been apart of the transgender activist movement for about five years now, and ever since I've joined the term has been considered to be "not ideal". As more time passed (and transgender became a more and more popular substitute) it's started to be viewed as both rude and offensive. Any credible source explaining LGBT+ issues only has transsexual as a foot note of, "This is what the older generations called these people, but the word is no considered out dated and offensive". Besides, the transgender page has a much more in-depth explanation anyway, including the side note that transsexual is no longer correct usage.
SeptimusHeap
12:42:59 PM Dec 2nd 2014
Ah so. Well, I have never heard of transsexual to be offensive, and I see that Wikipedia has two different pages for it. With that in mind I'll have to say no to these edits.
DustySoul
12:55:42 PM Dec 2nd 2014
A one word (or, really, two word edit, as transgender is an adjective and transsexual is a noun) edit to be more inclusive and maintain political correctness?
VioletBlaze
07:44:59 AM Jul 27th 2015
I, too, find it jarring that the page is still titled "Transexual" - especially since the very first word, in bold font, of the article is the more-inclusive "transgender".

Transsexual is a term that is most often used to refer to a transgender person who has undergone some form of gender-affirming surgery. While it's by no means an "un-PC" term, it is a more specific one, when the article itself applied to the entire spectrum of transgender topics.

I appreciate that the Useful Notes page is listed under the "Transgender" banner, I just wish that this page could also be brought in line with that one. Especially given that my argumentation for "transgender" versus "transsexual" is echoed in that article, but not followed through on the main page, which seems a bit... odd.
SeptimusHeap
12:20:53 AM Jul 28th 2015
Might be something to ask for here.
NordRonnoc
11:35:51 PM Jul 9th 2016
If I recall correctly, transsexual refers to a sexual preference towards transgender people.
StrixObscuro
11:39:49 PM Apr 26th 2017
I've added a proposal to the Trope Repair Shop.
StrixObscuro
01:22:41 PM Apr 27th 2017
Aaaaaand the proposal was point-blank rejected, and apparently this is not the first time...
SpaceHamster
Topic
06:59:11 AM Oct 12th 2014
Since this is obviously a very sensitive topic I didn't dare to edit it right away, but what I'm going to talk about is the term "trap." As far as I understand, "trap" is hardly proper LBGT -terminology, and most often I've seen it used in context of anime and manga, nothing else.

Basically it means a male character that looks and acts like a lady or in a rare inversion, a female character that looks like a guy, and the whole "trap" part originated from the notion that when people thought they were crushing on an attractive female character they were actually crushing on a guy, so, essentially being conned or "trapped" by the series author when they out the character some time later.

So, basically, what I'm trying to say that the definition should mention this being a very specific term predominantly used by anime/manga enthusiasts, and not really a proper way to refer to someone in real life.
DustySoul
06:41:44 AM Dec 2nd 2014
That word is considered a slur by most trans women (though not quite as bad as the T-slur. Like the relationship between the n-word and the word "negro") and I think this dehumanizing nature should be highlighted, or the word removed entirely.
Extraintrovert
12:26:39 AM May 30th 2015
I've only ever seen trap used either in fetish porn or as a derogatory way to refer to people who don't abide by gender roles. Given that the very description says it's used by drag queens (who aren't trans) and it links to knowyourmeme of all things, I think it can safely be deleted.
ScienceK
Topic
12:53:42 AM Jul 6th 2014
Would the Culture fit on this list, seeing as in the fictional 'verse it is seen as the norm for a person to change sex at least once in their life? The transition takes some months, so it's not exactly easy sex change, and there are still connotations carried by the genders, but connotation changes with the person.
SeptimusHeap
01:25:39 AM Jul 6th 2014
Seems like it would fit.
KuroKokoro
Topic
09:45:24 PM Oct 12th 2012
Does "Princess Cookie" from Adventure Time really fit? All its themes seemed coincidental to me.
NeeChee
Topic
07:01:12 PM Sep 16th 2012
In the trans* tropes I never found a trope for non-binary gender identities. There should be one. Most characters that are genderfluid or agender get tagged with the Transsexual trope and then have their gender identity added as a side note.
DustySoul
06:45:14 AM Dec 2nd 2014
I agree. One of the things that's really shaped my personal writing is the relationship between published literature with non-binary characters and then the way those characters are described on here. It's a very touchy subject, and one of the things that worries me about it, is that their is no trope for "male character" or "female character" or "black guy" while there are tropes like "Action Guy" and tropes that evoke both a gender and the role / personality of the character. So I think there should be a collection of non-binary tropes. But considering that their isn't even one... It's a bit of a train wreck. Though it's also the issue that finally pushed me to join this website, as it's one that I want to see done right and respectfully.
mayazimmerman
Topic
12:49:19 PM Nov 29th 2011
A couple of things... Shouldn't Kafka on the Shore, as a novel, be in Literature, rather than Anime & Manga? Also, no Wendy Carlos in music?
suedenim
02:50:23 AM Nov 30th 2011
Is it a "Visual Novel?" I think we have different and/or unsettled ways of filing those (there's a Visual Novels section on this page, but I'm not sure there should be.)

As for Wendy Carlos, feel free to add her as an example!
suedenim
Topic
06:20:30 AM Apr 29th 2011
Tales Of Mu was recently added as an example. I'm unfamiliar with the work, but it sounds more like a magic-based Gender Bender example than truly Transsexual. Can anyone confirm or deny?
suedenim
Topic
12:44:59 PM Feb 15th 2011
I removed this re: Transamerica
  • This transsexual (MTF) troper disagrees. This movie seemed more like a cissexual's idea of our experience than an authentic transsexual experience.

I removed it for This Troper problems, but I'd like to see Twilight Princess rewrite the example. Properly, it should be on one line, along the lines of:

  • Transamerica is seen as a realistic portrayal by many, but others differ, pointing to X, Y, and Z as reasons.

I'm curious as to what the reasons are. One that jumps out at me is that the majority of transsexuals don't end up looking like genetic females of the sort that get paid millions of dollars to star in Hollywood features, but there may be others.

Also, it might properly be an example for Easy Sex Change, if I'm reading your implications correctly.
TwilightPrincess
01:45:36 PM Feb 17th 2011
I wouldn't consider Transamerica to be an good example for Easy Sex Change, I just found the content to be very stereotypical. For example, the way Bree walks and talks and wears makeup feels to be designed to highlight her inherit masculinity, and made the character seem much more like a characterture than an actual transsexual woman.

Also, the whole plot with her therapist is a good example for Did Not Do The Research, as the WPATH SOC (also called the 'Standards of Care', the guidelines used by many health care professionals to determine who can/cannot have genital surgery) do not mention anything about family relations. If Bree had been living full-time as long as the movie seemed to imply, it would have been much easier for her to find other therapists and acquire the letter she needed than to embark on the adventure that was required for the plot.
suedenim
Topic
03:27:10 PM Sep 13th 2010
Regarding the Video Games/ Persona 4 entry, someone commented:
  • That's more like a transvestite, surely?

Perhaps someone who knows the game can clarify. It sounds to me like the "real" character is a crossdresser (or maybe just "mannish" in attitude and style?) But only her "shadow" character is actually a pre-op transsexual? (Though it sounds like she still qualifies for the trope, since if I understand the descriptions of the game on Shadow Archetype, those would represent some sort of inner desire?)
99.21.80.215
06:30:43 PM Oct 6th 2010
Naoto dressed like a man and tried to disguise her voice (poorly). For the most part? Her shadow talked about how she felt disrespected or wasn't taken seriously. Being a detective is a man's business, no one's going to listen to a high schooler, much less a girl, or at least that's how she saw it.
suedenim
03:58:26 AM Oct 7th 2010
So it sounds like she wouldn't really fit this trope, then?
99.21.80.215
07:54:26 AM Oct 8th 2010
From what I can tell, no.
Katsuhagi
01:53:23 PM Feb 17th 2011
There's a lot of disagreement among fans about whether Naoto actually is trans, but as far as I know there's not a definite answer given in game, but it seems to point more towards that she's not. The general consensus is that she's some form of gendequeer, but its' hard to pin down.
suedenim
Topic
06:39:30 AM Aug 22nd 2010
edited by loracarol
Regarding the Adam character on the De Grassi show: could someone clarify in the example whether Adam is FtM or MtF?
whitetigah
08:01:11 AM Aug 22nd 2010
Reading the Degrassi article, I found out Adam is FtM (exact words in the article are "Adam was born Gracie").
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http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/remarks.php?trope=Main.TransSexual