Main Super Weight Discussion

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TheTonathan100
Topic
02:16:18 PM Apr 2nd 2016
edited by TheTonathan100
I do not believe that the Super Weight Scale really captures all of the nuances in power within fiction and between fictional characters, like the Marvel Power Rankings:

http://www.outskirtsbattledomewiki.com/index.php/13-general-obd-terms/193-marvel-power-rankings

Or the Japanese Versus Tiers:

http://www.narutoforums.com/xfa-blog-entry/25065/

http://www.screwattack.com/post/51231556

http://www.narutoforums.com/xfa-blog-entry/help-with-marvel-power-rankings.31050/

http://deathbattlefanon.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:Imperator100isnotavailable/Generic_Tier_List_System_for_Classification

Therefore, I am requesting an expansion of the overly simplistic Super Weight Scale.

Weight Class Description Example Traits and Abilities
Muggle Tier
Fragile Weight: -1 Characters in this weight class can't do things muggles take for granted, have next to no combat ability and may even die if left alone for too long. These characters may rely extensively on luck, outside help or constant vigilance (assuming they aren't a burden in the first place). Note that merely being The Load or dying often doesn't put you in this weight, nor does being annoyingly dependent. This weight is for characters that are physically (or mentally) undeveloped/handicapped and cannot do what the average adult human can do. Mouse World, Tag Along Kid, Ill Girl, Made of Plasticine, Nearly Normal Animal, Companion Cube
Muggle Weight: 0 These characters are not significantly stronger or weaker than normal humans, and tend to be Innocent Bystanders and (you guessed it) Muggles. Though not necessarily humans, they should be close to normal people in ability. Action Survivor, Unfazed Everyman, Non-Action Guy
Iron Weight: 1 These characters are Made of Iron Badass Normals who can push the upper limits of what a human is capable of. They may have gotten Training from Hell, or are experts at martial arts, Good Old Fisticuffs, Gun Kata, Le Parkour, Improbable Weapon Usage and the like, or is part of the Red Shirt Army. Basically, this is a character anyone could become, bar the setting. However, note that characters don't need to be humans to be put here. This weight is also for any natural wildlife that could take down an unarmed human single-handedly. Badass Normal, Action Hero, Real Life Super Powers, Bears Are Bad News
Between Muggle Tier and Super Tier
Abnormal Weight: 2 Characters in this weight class have an ability, trait, or talent that is supernatural or superhuman, but are otherwise comparable to normal humans. However, their abilities are generally very specific and limited and may be useless in some situations, rendering the characters just as helpless as normal un-powered humans. Usually, characters of this type lack the Required Secondary Powers to optimize or protect themselves from their own powers. Perhaps their only powers are to cancel other powers. Most of the time, their ability is something we can mimic or even surpass using common science or low-grade cybernetics. Muggles and Irons that are Beast Men or Cyborgs may also end up here. Transhuman, Beast Man, Anti-Magic / Power Nullifier, Single-Power Superheroes, Inept Mage, Super Soldier
Super Tier
Super Weight: 3 Characters in this weight class can no longer be considered normal. Their powers may be Stock Superpowers or Functional Magic that, even if they are limited, may be used in a variety of ways, and tend to have Required Secondary Powers. Most of your run-of-the-mill Super Heroes, Shounen characters, and Mages will likely start here, possibly being pushed higher as they continue their adventures. Magic and Powers, Stock Superpowers, Functional Magic
Hyper Weight: 4 These characters typically can cause, stop, or reverse large scale disasters, or break the laws of or flat out warp physics with their powers. A protagonist of this weight (or higher) risks becoming a God-Mode Sue, because their abilities tend to be story-breaking, making it difficult to give them a plausible challenge. That said, a protagonist at this weight can have engaging adventures, the author just has to be careful to scale the Sliding Scale of Villain Threat accordingly. Person of Mass Destruction, Weather Manipulation, Colony Drop, Diabolical Mastermind, Flying Brick, The Archmage
World Weight: 5 These characters have abilities that can affect entire worlds (such as Earth or other planets comparable to Earth in size) either positively or negatively, or may even be a manifestation of a planet, with all that implies. They could even be the Background Magic Field, if said field is sentient. Reality Warpers who are powerful enough to create, alter, or destroy such worlds, or ones who can manipulate physics, also go here. Many Emperors and Evil Overlords end up here, especially if they're trying to Take Over the World or are Omnicidal Maniacs, though you will find their opposite in The Messiah. The Emperor, Evil Overlord, World-Wrecking Wave, World-Healing Wave, Earth-Shattering Kaboom, Genesis Effect, Physical God, Background Magic Field, Celestial Body, Mother Nature, The Messiah, Messianic Archetype, Satanic Archetype
Between Super Tier and Cosmic Tier
Star Weight: 6 These characters have the capacity to control entire stars and solar systems up to entire star clusters, either positively or negatively. They may even be manifestations of such stellar objects, with all that implies. Reality Warpers with the power to create, alter, or destroy stellar objects, or ones who can manipulate space and/or time, also go here. Most Galactic Conquerers start here. Sufficiently Advanced Aliens start here as well once they become a Type II Civilization. Characters at this weight class and beyond are often capable of traveling at many times the speed of light. Star Killing, Solar CPR, Sufficiently Advanced Alien, Space Master, Time Master
Cosmic Tier
Cosmic Weight: 7 Characters that are this powerful aren't so much characters as forces of nature, wielding power to directly influence entire galaxies (such as the Milky Way or other galaxies comparable to the Milky Way in size) to entire universes. As a kind of Cosmic Entity, they may be a Reality Warper with galactic to universal scale Reset Button abilities, a Reality Warper with the ability to manipulate quantum mechanics, a Galactic Conqueror or Dimension Lord, an Anthropomorphic Personification on a galactic to universal scale, a manifestation of a galaxy to a universe, or a Sentient Cosmic Force. These characters often go about their business in the universe, unaffected by traditional conflicts, for better or worse. Cosmic Entity, Sentient Cosmic Force, Cosmic Keystone, Anthropomorphic Personification, The Powers That Be
Super Cosmic Weight: 8 Characters in this weight class can impact the totality of The Multiverse, and are often far more powerful than most other Cosmic Entities, with the rest of the Cosmic Entities being subject to the authority of these characters. Such characters are often either the Guardian of the Multiverse, the Multiversal Conqueror, or "simply" a Reality Warper powerful enough to manipulate The Multiverse, metaphysics such as probability, causality, fate, and/or destiny, or even Meta Fiction such as the plot. Anthropomorphic Personifications on a scale that encompasses The Multiverse or manifestations of The Multiverse also go here. The Abstract Eater and Spacetime Eater are in this weight class as well. Guardian of the Multiverse, Multiversal Conqueror, Abstract Eater, Spacetime Eater, Winds of Destiny, Change, Cosmic Retcon, Continuity Reboot, Retconjuration
Author Weight: 9 Characters in this weight class are absolutely omnipotent and likely omniscient and omnipresent. They are capable of exerting their will on all of the totality of The Verse/Series Franchise, manipulating all alternate dimensions, planes of existence, parallel universes, possible universes, timelines, alternate continuities, realities, and Multiverses within said totality. They can often manipulate even the plot itself without exception. Destiny/Fate is their play-thing. They cannot be killed or destroyed by any means. Any limits they have are self-imposed. While this weight is almost always reserved for God, the Author, and the Game Master, characters can be written for at this level. Just don't expect it to be a normal story. As a result, a character at this level is fairly rare. Author Avatar, Author Powers, The Omnipotent, God, Game Master, The Anti-God
SeptimusHeap
01:21:53 AM Apr 3rd 2016
That seems to be a bit too granular to me.
TheTonathan100
11:28:22 AM Apr 3rd 2016
@Septimus Heap

How so?
SeptimusHeap
08:27:18 AM Apr 4th 2016
There are far too many weakly distinguished types there.
TheTonathan100
09:03:54 AM Apr 5th 2016
edited by TheTonathan100
@Septimus Heap

I'm not very sure about the types being too "weakly distinguished".

Can you explain which weight classes are too weakly distinguished from each other, so I can edit the Super Weight scale in turn?

I can explain why a few of the weight classes are so "weakly" distinguished.

for example Meta Weight/Class 5 is more distinguished from Hyper Weight/Class 4 due to the fact that:

1. Affecting an entire continent or landmass is different from affecting a region (what I define to be Hyper Weight/Class 4)

2. Manipulating of Toon Physics is massively superior to "merely" defying the laws of physics.
SquallCloud
10:10:23 AM Apr 5th 2016
I also think that this massive a change would cause lots of unnecessary disagreements and edit-warring over which characters that would fit where.
TheTonathan100
01:06:50 PM Apr 5th 2016
@Squall Cloud

I don't agree. If I recall correctly, the entire Super Weight page is based on the (rather extremely subjective, if I might add) concept of "consistent portrayal".

You simply need to fit characters on the "old" Super Weight Scale to where they would fit on the "new" Super Weight Scale based on if the descriptions of the weight classes where they would fit are similar enough.
SquallCloud
08:42:43 PM Apr 5th 2016
With all due respect, this is not a battleboard site, and you are trying to make it into one. With so many categories it would inevitably cause massive conflicts and disagreements.

Who should decide which character that should fit where? Yourself alone? Is that what this is ultimately about? It seems much better to keep this place reasonably peaceful, and let things stay as they are.

Also, why specifically rate characters based on their abilities to break the 4th wall? Certainly there are many other ways to gauge relative power levels.
Ferot_Dreadnaught
08:55:08 PM Apr 5th 2016
We have forums to debate and justify alterations. Unless you have evidence this is becoming a ground for edit wars, I see no reason to alter anything.

The 4th wall thing, you may have a point about it not factoring into in-univese power levels.
SquallCloud
09:08:09 PM Apr 5th 2016
Well, battleboard rankings tend to be extremely controversial, based on the hundreds to thousands of hours that a massive amount of people around the world spend within their forums constantly disagreeing with each other with extreme vitriole, so I would rather avoid that fate to befall TV Tropes.

Also, as I alluded to, this particular ranking system seems dependent on assuming that all fictions are equally large, even though, for example, ones such as the Dark Tower have multiverses within grains of sand of other multiverses, and so onwards, continuing infinitely.
SquallCloud
09:20:04 PM Apr 5th 2016
Also, I would still prefer to avoid making Tv Tropes to a battleboard site, but there are other tiering systems than the one that Tonathan suggested as a reference:

http://ru.anime-characters-fight.wikia.com/wiki/Уровни_Сил

http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Tiering_System
TheTonathan100
09:53:17 PM Apr 5th 2016
edited by TheTonathan100
@Squall Cloud

1. "With all due respect, this is not a battleboard site, and you are trying to make it into one. With so many categories it would inevitably cause massive conflicts and disagreements."

Ferot_Dreadnaught explains this best:

"We have forums to debate and justify alterations. Unless you have evidence this is becoming a ground for edit wars, I see no reason to alter anything."

2. "Who should decide which character that should fit where? Yourself alone? Is that what this is ultimately about? It seems much better to keep this place reasonably peaceful, and let things stay as they are."

I didn't create this in an attempt to "control" TV Tropes. I did so because I believe that the original Super Weight page has too simplistic a Super Weight Scale.

3. "Also, why specifically rate characters based on their abilities to break the 4th wall? Certainly there are many other ways to gauge relative power levels."

When I meant "Reality Warping that can stimulate Toon Physics", I generally meant Reality Warping powerful enough to manipulate the strict laws of physics of their universe into far more lenient laws.

Also, see this: http://powerlisting.wikia.com/wiki/Cartoon_Physics

4. "Well, battleboard rankings tend to be extremely controversial, based on the hundreds to thousands of hours that a massive amount of people around the world spend within their forums constantly disagreeing with each other with extreme vitriole, so I would rather avoid that fate to befall TV Tropes. "

It's not really that hard. Just move characters on the old scale to where they would place on the new scale. I would like the Super Weight Scale to be based more on actual feats though, as feats are the most accurate representation of a character's weight class.

5. "Also, as I alluded to, this particular ranking system seems dependent on assuming that all fictions are equally large, even though, for example, ones such as the Dark Tower have multiverses within grains of sand of other multiverses, and so onwards, continuing infinitely."

Well then, that wouldn't actually be a simple multiverse, but what I call an Omniverse, a set of all alternate dimensions, planes of existence, parallel universes, possible universes, timelines, alternate continuities, realities, Multiverses, and sets beyond Multiverses within a Verse or Series Franchise. A "Megaverse" would simply be a set beyond a Multiverse.

At no point have I EVER deluded myself into assuming that all fictions have equally large cosmologies.

By the way, if we are going to take our tier systems from other sites, just do not use the VS. Battles Wiki or Anime Characters Fight Wiki tier systems. This is because we actually have no idea how the amount of dimensions that one encompasses relates to one's tier of power.
SquallCloud
12:16:06 AM Apr 6th 2016
Hmm. I am still vary about this. I have seen how people in different battleboard commmunities tend to bahave towards each other, and would still prefer to avoid this spreading here.

Also, the requirement of a metafictional component for characters in the higher parts of the tiering system seems largely irrelevant to gauging a scale.

Even comparatively low-powered 5-dimensional characters such as Mister Mxyzptlk can do this, as can the bottom tier Umineko characters, who in turn are mere fiction to higher tier characters within the same fiction, and so onwards.

Should we really rate Bugs Bunny as category 11 or 12, just because he can manipulate the plot. And given that the 4th wall is nonsense in the first place, as fiction cannot ever interact with actual reality, just pretend that it does, should we really throw that into the mixture?

As for an Omniverse, that means all of fiction and reality combined. There is no fictional character that can reach that high. Ditto for omni-creator. They can only affect their own fictions, due to copyright restrictions.

Also, the two systems that I linked to are actually more elaborate and far-reaching for higher levels than the one that you used. Dimensional scale does make perfect sense in terms of simple geometry.
SquallCloud
12:30:53 AM Apr 6th 2016
Also, feats tend to be irrelevant for gauging the levels where infinite multiverses are literally less than nothing in comparison. Elaborate in-continuity descriptions and definitions tend to be better to go by for such cases.
TheTonathan100
08:43:31 AM Apr 6th 2016
1. "Hmm. I am still vary about this. I have seen how people in different battleboard commmunities tend to bahave towards each other, and would still prefer to avoid this spreading here."

I can respect that feeling, but we have forums to justify alterations or changes to a character's weight class. There will be no edit wars.

2. "Also, the requirement of a metafictional component for characters in the higher parts of the tiering system seems largely irrelevant to gauging a scale."

I never said that it was a requirement for characters in the Supreme Being Tier to have a metafictional component, just that it was likely that they would have such a component to their existence and powers or abilities.

3. "Even comparatively low-powered 5-dimensional characters such as Mister Mxyzptlk can do this, as can the bottom tier Umineko characters, who in turn are mere fiction to higher tier characters within the same fiction, and so onwards."

I have a feeling that you come from VS. Battles Wiki. If so, I have a rude awakening for you.

http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Tiering_System

"There are many different versions of the concept of higher-dimensional entities, each depending on the fictional rules that the author of that particular franchise has laid out. Hence, it is impossible to say that higher dimensional characters can always beat lower dimensional ones."

Why should one have to accept a tiering system that is completely irrelevant given the version of the concept of higher-dimensional entities that the author has?

4. "Should we really rate Bugs Bunny as category 11 or 12, just because he can manipulate the plot. And given that the 4th wall is nonsense in the first place, as fiction cannot ever interact with actual reality, just pretend that it does, should we really throw that into the mixture? "

Bugs Bunny is a Type 12, since he can be the writer and manipulate the narrative of Looney Tunes absolutely.

And of course the 4th Wall is a logically nonsensical metafictional concept, but most Tropes listed in This Very Wiki are nonsensical concepts when logic is applied to them. So we might as well throw 4th Wall related powers into the mixture.

5. "As for an Omniverse, that means all of fiction and reality combined. There is no fictional character that can reach that high. Ditto for omni-creator. They can only affect their own fictions, due to copyright restrictions."

Actually, that is only one definition of the term "Omniverse". That definition was created by Marvel Comics. Other fictions may define the "Omniverse" differently, such as DC Comics.

http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=31144

6. "Also, the two systems that I linked to are actually more elaborate and far-reaching for higher levels than the one that you used. Dimensional scale does make perfect sense in terms of simple geometry."

Refer to number 3.

7. "Also, feats tend to be irrelevant for gauging the levels where infinite multiverses are literally less than nothing in comparison. Elaborate in-continuity descriptions and definitions tend to be better to go by for such cases."

I do not agree. Without feats, we often have no idea where to place characters. And feats in the canon override in-continuity descriptions and definitions, as what is observed always overrides what is stated.
SquallCloud
08:30:00 PM Apr 6th 2016
1) I sincerely doubt that, and even if not there would be constant heated arguing in the forums, going by what happens in other sites. You might have the time and energy for that, but most other people do not, which would effectively give you control over all character rankings.

2) Well, the tiering system that you just wrote certainly seems to favour toon force characters, and anybody with mere multiversal feats, over characters that unfathomably exceed this scale.

As I mentioned, I much prefer not to rock the boat, and risk to turn TV Tropes into a battleboard community. Things have worked out quite well currently, with a peaceful atmosphere about the rankings. There is no need to upset that.

3) As I mentioned, higher-dimensional stature makes perfect logical sense from a mathematical geometrical perspective. The problem is simply when authors are ignorant about this fact. But that is easily remedied with not including supposedly (falsely claimed to be) higher-dimensional characters with severe contradictions to that stature, due to vulnerability to lower-dimensional powers, or lack of infinite power.

4) And that is the problem in a nutshell. Bugs Bunny simply displayed the ability to warp Daffy and his immediate surroundings with his pencil, yet we are going to rank him as a supposedly omnipotent entity. Any low tier Umineko character can do the same thing, and they are mere fiction to characters higher up the scale, who are fiction to characters higher up the scale, stretching infinitely up to Featherine Augustus Aurora.

5) Actually, it is Mark Gruenwald's original definition of the word Omniverse from his old fiction fanzine. He then imported it to Marvel when he became an editor there. If any battleboard community wants to use it for something else, they should have used another word. Also, the same goes for DC, but can you link directly to the company's use of the term?

6) Well, again, it is far less limiting than the alternative. Trying to fit fictions that do matter-of-fact use a much higher hierarchy into a very constrained space, does not sit right with me. It is not perfect, no system is, but it is considerably preferable to the alternative.

7) Most fictions do not have feats for every single thing, and for the highest powered franchises blowing up an infinite number of megaverses is literally less than nothing to their scale of power, so it is hard to illustrate in a manner that our tiny minds and imaginations can comprehend. So, although I obviously agree that feats are important, they are far from everything.
TheTonathan100
11:48:20 AM Apr 7th 2016
1. "I sincerely doubt that, and even if not there would be constant heated arguing in the forums, going by what happens in other sites. You might have the time and energy for that, but most other people do not, which would effectively give you control over all character rankings."

Not really. I actually wouldn't change the weight class of the characters unless there is a general consensus for the change of the weight classes.

2. "Well, the tiering system that you just wrote certainly seems to favour toon force characters, and anybody with mere multiversal feats, over characters that unfathomably exceed this scale."

Not exactly. Concerning Reality Warpers and Toon Physics, Toon Physics is just above merely defying physics in tiers of Reality Warping, and is "only" in Type 5 in my Super Weight Scale.

"As I mentioned, I much prefer not to rock the boat, and risk to turn TV Tropes into a battleboard community. Things have worked out quite well currently, with a peaceful atmosphere about the rankings. There is no need to upset that."

I'm not trying to cause any trouble. I simply believe that the Super Weight Scale is far too simplistic for actual character rankings. A simple change to the scale is not going to really "upset" much.

3. "As I mentioned, higher-dimensional stature makes perfect logical sense from a mathematical geometrical perspective."

Here's a thought experiment. Imagine that in one Verse, a universe alone was 11-dimensional, meaning that to destroy it makes you an 11-dimensional being. In another verse, a Multiverse is only 5-dimensional.

Should that logically mean that Universe Busting for one Verse is greater than Multiverse Busting for another Verse? No, because projective geometry and mathematical dimensions have no inherent relationship towards power.

"The problem is simply when authors are ignorant about this fact. But that is easily remedied with not including supposedly (falsely claimed to be) higher-dimensional characters with severe contradictions to that stature, due to vulnerability to lower-dimensional powers, or lack of infinite power."

Emperor Joker had his head punched through by Superman. Guess all 5th Dimensional Imps are no longer actually 5-dimensional.

4. "And that is the problem in a nutshell. Bugs Bunny simply displayed the ability to warp Daffy and his immediate surroundings with his pencil, yet we are going to rank him as a supposedly omnipotent entity."

Yes, because (in that specific cartoon) Bugs Bunny had the unlimited cosmic power of being the writer.

"Any low tier Umineko character can do the same thing, and they are mere fiction to characters higher up the scale, who are fiction to characters higher up the scale, stretching infinitely up to Featherine Augustus Aurora."

Read number 3. Also, a 2-dimensional drawing on 3-dimensional paper is not "fictional". It's still real, because it exists in reality as a drawing.

5. "Actually, it is Mark Gruenwald's original definition of the word Omniverse from his old fiction fanzine. He then imported it to Marvel when he became an editor there."

Yes. And?

"If any battleboard community wants to use it for something else, they should have used another word."

A philosopher known as William James coined the term "multiverse", but in a different context than "a set of multiple universes". I guess we need to use only his definition of "multiverse".

Also, the same goes for DC, but can you link directly to the company's use of the term?"

http://i.imgur.com/0HsZnsl.png

http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=31144

6. "Well, again, it is far less limiting than the alternative. Trying to fit fictions that do matter-of-fact use a much higher hierarchy into a very constrained space, does not sit right with me. It is not perfect, no system is, but it is considerably preferable to the alternative."

Well, if The Verse in question stated that there were higher dimensional spacetime continuums, AND that these higher dimensions were above The Multiverse, THEN we can say that The Verse is a Megaverse/Omniverse.

7. "Most fictions do not have feats for every single thing, and for the highest powered franchises blowing up an infinite number of megaverses is literally less than nothing to their scale of power, so it is hard to illustrate in a manner that our tiny minds and imaginations can comprehend. So, although I obviously agree that feats are important, they are far from everything."

For god tier series franchises or Verses such as Marvel Comics or DC Comics, what you say is true. I do agree that uncontradicted and non-hyperbolic statements are also important, although not as important as feats.
SquallCloud
10:22:26 AM Apr 9th 2016
I would appreciate if you would please refrain from inserting chopped up quotes into your responses. It spams the page with walls of text, and is wholly unnecessary, as it is easy to read what I have said in my original posts. The numbered segments are a good idea though.

1. Look, the point is that this is not a wiki for ordering characters into weight classes, it is a wiki for categorising plot conveniences. And if we start to categorise characters too strictly, whether to your preferences or those of others, it would inevitably bring with it considerable amounts of drama, endless disagreements, and a vast amount of time and effort from all involved.

You and I both likely have enough experience with these types of matter to know that it most likely will bring with it lots of trouble due to constant time-consuming disagreements.

There are already at least three major perfectly good wikis dedicated to power rankings, and I am personally doubtful that it is a good idea to even have pages for this here in the first place, but it is not my place to criticise, and entirely up to the local moderators to decide.

2. Well, they certainly favour a metafictional component as a requirement, which seems way too one-sided. Any character with plot manipulation, or make-believe claims of somehow ascending to being a writer automatically gets a free pass to tier 12, regardless if it was done as a mere gag, and they strictly performed local reality-warping feats, without any indications of being able to manipulate extremely higher degrees of reality.

3. Going by math, projective geometry very much does have a direct relationship towards power. No matter how great an infinite number of 2-dimensional objects without height that you stack on top of each other they will still never be 3-dimensional.

Similarly, no matter how many infinite numbers of 5-dimensional multiverses you stack on top of each other you will never even make them 6-dimensional. Again, the problem is not with the logic of the system itself, it is merely with that not all writers understand or care about this fact.

However, there are plenty of fictions that do not remotely adhere to your system with “Mega verses” either, which is merely a throwaway reference in the Marvel handbooks, and yet many old school battle board members habitually attempt to fit every fiction in existence to be constrained by terms and conditions that are far too small and limited in imagination to remotely fit.

There are various things wrong with the Emperor Joker assumption. A lower-dimensional being can logically never affect more than an infinitely thin slice of a higher-dimensional entity, and in addition Grant Morrison clearly established that the 5-dimensional imps were two degrees of infinity above regular 3-D reality. “Plot Induced Stupidity” story convenience from another writer does not invalidate these facts, and speaking of which it does not make any sense for 5-dimensional power to be contained within a 3-Dimensional vessel, any more that you can fit within a 1-dimensional line. In any case, it is much easier to assume that the Joker had not acclimatised to his newfound infinite stature, and that what Superman punched through was simply a representation of his true being. It has also been a long time since I read Emperor Joker, but from what I remember, Superman could not do anything to defeat him by physical force.

In addition, Marvel and DC characters regularly go from Wall level to Universe level from story to story at the drop of a hat. The writers do not tend to care about consistency in the slightest.

4. Bugs Bunny being the writer was a make-believe gag, and he strictly displayed the ability to recreate Daffy’s form, along with painting regular surroundings, not higher-dimensional manipulation. There are fictions that run on the principle of fictions within fictions within fictions, stretching infinitely, including Umineko. The only way to properly gauge the scale of the power of such characters is to evaluate the scope of the fiction/dream/information that they are able to manipulate. Just throwing every single “author” character under the same label, and automatically rank them higher than all the most powerful metaphysical cosmic entities, no matter how unimpressive the scope of their feats would be a massive, and unfair, oversimplification.

5. The point is that the correct terminology for a cow is not “penguin”, and fan bastardisations of a term are not in any way official.

Multiverse on the other hand very much has developed into an official term within the scientific community, even if theories regarding its nature, and how many dimensions it has tend to differ.

Anyway, regardless whether DC uses the word, it is still impossible for their characters to affect anything outside of their own franchise. They could pretend that they destroyed the “omniverse” within a story, and the rest of fiction and reality would still be fine.

6. The traditional battle board definition of a “mega verse” is just a collection of multiverses, whereas your definition of “omniverse” is just a collection of “mega verses”. These are extremely limiting fan terminology that many authors are easily able to let their characters and structures vastly transcend. There are problems with any system, including the partially dimension-based one, but there are considerably bigger ones with attempting to use Marvel Comics as the end-all be-all size-fit-all for all fiction, regardless of scope and, especially as Marvel itself recurrently does not subscribe to the system.

7. There are indeed certain characters in Marvel and DC capable of performing such feats, and there are many others from fictions that we have never heard of that are capable of doing the same thing, or more. I like Marvel and DC fine. I grew up on them, but popularity, familiarity, and even quality of writing, are no automatic requirements for a superior scale of power. I am uneasy with attempting to use them as some kind of elevated standard, rather than devise independent systems that are better adapted for different types of settings and higher scales of power.
TheTonathan100
12:17:06 PM Apr 11th 2016
edited by TheTonathan100
@Squall Cloud

1. Personally, I believe that the Super Weight Scale is great for quelling VS. debates that devolve into Flame Bait and Flame Wars, such as Goku VS. Superman and Galactus VS. Unicron.

On an unrelated note, what do you mean by 3 major wikis? The only major wikis that I know for VS. debates are the Outskirts Battledome Wiki and the VS. Battles Wiki.

2. Characters that "only" manipulate the plot and aren't completely omnipotent can range anywhere on the scale from Type 8 to Type 11.

3. Here is a quote from my friend on dimensional tiering and projective geometry:

"It depends on the type of dimensions - higher levels of existence can range from entire infinite universes being less than an atom in a higher dimensions (and said system continuing on forever) to just people with strange angles. Then there's stuff like higher realms being more real than lower realms. Basically, dimensions should be tackled per individual series, not bulked together in an all-encompassing power levels system, as dimensions vary greatly from work to work, and we don't even know if higher dimensions exist."

My definition of Megaverse and Omniverse is such because, other than dimensional tiering, most series franchises do not go beyond The Multiverse in scale. Those that do are often considered "God Tier".

I would like some evidence showing that DC Comics and Marvel Comics are that inconsistent.

4. In this case, I'm going to agree. Bugs Bunny only manipulated a universe, which would "only" put him at Type 8 on my scale. I can agree with you that simply throwing ever "author" character under the same type, and automatically rank them higher than all the most powerful metaphysical cosmic entities, no matter how unimpressive the scope of their feats, would be a massive, and unfair, oversimplification.

But on the concept of dimensional tiering and projective geometry, refer to number 3.

5. Okay...

6. Actually, Marvel does use the terms "Megaverse" and "Omniverse" on occasion.

http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?bt=225457

Sometimes the term "Omniverse" is confused with "Multiverse" and this facet should be noted anytime something is said to be "outside of the Omniverse".

7. Dimensional tiering doesn't really work either. Dimensional tiering only works if such a thing is explicitly specific to be the case within the setting.
TheTonathan100
12:39:49 PM Apr 11th 2016
Also, this:

"It's still inconsistent. Quantum mechanics is great, but half the dimensions you talk about in terms of String Theory are rolled up at Planck scale lengths. Being 'nine dimensonal' doesn't have a lot of meaning when those extra dimensions are basically nonexistent. That's why that entire discussion about the LT and Chousin is worthless. We cannot definitively say what dimensions mean for power, how they scale with power, or whether they are consistent. I also don't really understand why being four dimensional is impressive because we live in a four dimensional world. It's not particularly impressive. And then going up a single dimension to 5D makes you Mxy? And going up four makes you like Darkseid? The 'dimension' thing is utterly arbitrary and has no quantitative worth when discussing power."
TheTonathan100
10:43:15 AM Apr 28th 2016
@Squall Cloud

Bumping.
Xcano
10:14:05 PM Jul 6th 2016
edited by Xcano
1. Hi Tonathon.

2. The real issue here is the last 2 tiers. Tonathon you yourself should know multiverse debates go nowhere. Yeah sure whatever some infinities are bigger than others but really nobody can agree on anything. I agree with this thing overall though. After all, what does "minor superhuman" and "large scale disaster" mean? Where do we draw the line?

I think the last tier is fine as Author/Omnipotent and the second to last tier should just be "multiverse". Just flat that. No disagreements on who has the bigger multiverse just "can affect more than one universe". Simple.

I would personally have no problem redoing the scale to be a little less verbose and still fit the mood tbh. And I do understand this isn't a VS. Site and I understand all of your concerns @Squall Cloud.
Aetol
Topic
04:08:17 PM Mar 1st 2016
Does Made of Plasticine (level -1) really fit on this scale ? It is not a trope pertaining to individual characters (which is what the scale is about) ; rather, it describes an attitude held by the work/setting regarding injuries.
agigabyte
Topic
11:25:03 PM Jan 9th 2016
Where would The Omnipresent go?
Ferot_Dreadnaught
11:35:18 PM Jan 9th 2016
At least type 2 (superhuman). May be higher depending on the scope of their omnipresence (city, planet, universe) and what they can do with it (they might be able to manifest no more ability at once then a normal person).

082122712641
Topic
04:58:28 PM Dec 15th 2015
King Zeal, God is indeed a Type 7. What I'm talking about is that Type 6s can function as God (not necessarily equal to it in power). For the sake of example, Satan, a Type 6 in Religion and Mythology can (and according to the Bible, will, during the end times) pose as an omnipotent god, even though he isn't.
082122712641
05:06:04 PM Dec 15th 2015
Wait. Allow me to correct myself. I'm wrong. I apologize for disturbing.
jag140
Topic
02:21:53 PM Sep 15th 2015
Does anyone think we should have a Made of Explodium weight that's below Fragile weight for characters that are doomed to die and/or will die at the slightest touch, often for black comedy (Think Kenny from South Park)?
Ferot_Dreadnaught
05:01:39 PM Dec 15th 2015
Fragile weight covers that, hell Kenny might rank higher since resurrection is a (debatable) superpower.
434411423124222344
Topic
08:02:00 AM Aug 1st 2015
I made my account recently (though I've been reading TV Tropes for long before then) so I have a question.

Should I discuss any and all proposed changes to this page on the Discussion subpage first, or should I just Be Bold and add them immediately? I really want to know.

SeptimusHeap
01:25:46 AM Aug 2nd 2015
Be Bold for this page.
434411423124222344
05:17:37 AM Aug 2nd 2015
edited by 434411423124222344
Thanks very much. :)
AuraGuardian
Topic
11:54:27 AM Feb 22nd 2015
I didn't get a reply in the Webcomics subpage, so going to ask it here:

I'm not quite clear on the same-person-entered-twice rules (though Nanase is there twice already), which is the main reason I'm asking.

I would like to modify the entry for El Goonish Shive with the following:
  • Spoilers after Tedd's entry, Sarah's entry, and Justin's entry saying "before being marked"
  • Add Tedd, Justin, and Sarah to Abnormal Weight with spoilers "after being marked" (except Justin, who would get "after being marked and later awakened")
  • Add Nanase to Super Weight with spoiler "in Guardian Form"

Do these seem accurate, and should Justin instead go into Tier 3, with an "after being Awakened"?
sidhewithblueeyes
Topic
01:15:43 PM Feb 20th 2015
I have to ask- In dresden Files entry, all Dragons are put as 5, along with Mab, Titania, darkhallow and Demonreach within it's boundaries. However, by Word Of God, ferrovax-the oldest and most powerful of Dragons is equal to Mab-and even then, fight between those 2 would be less one side destroys other and more both continue to exist. Here's Word of God

Hmmm. In terms of pure, raw power, several who have appeared or been mentioned in the books could pull it off, though neither side would really "win" as much as "continue to exist." Plus, the sudden absence of Mab would do freaking HIDEOUS things to the earth. But here's who has the necessary horsepower do it:

o Titania—though it would be a coin toss. Almost literally. o The Mothers (who wouldn't) o The White Council. As in, ALL the White Council. Every wizard on the planet. And they'd need her Name. o Drakul. o Ferrovax. o The Red Court—again, ALL the Red Court, though their odds wouldn't be good. o The entire White Court—very, very long odds on that, but if they actually pulled it off, whoever took Mab would effectively control her power. o Cowl (if the Darkhallow had succeeded). o A union of the old Elders of the Black Court. They were freaking scary until the Whites arranged to have them hounded down by mortals.

All of that, of course, assumes that Mab is standing there alone, outside of Faerie, and not commanding an entire nation, literally millions and millions and millions of nightmarish creatures of every description. Which she does.

There's a REASON that when Mab said, "Sign these Accords and abide by them," people listened. Smiley

So, I corrected it, and put Ferrovax 5 and Dragons 4. Is it ok?

On another note, Should Mab and Titania be 5? Lea, Mab's second in power and handmaiden names her equal to Archangel-so 6. Mothers then should be either 6 but higher level, or 7. I guess it goes by RP book, but since that's written in universe by Harry,Bill and Bob, it could be unreliable narrator. Harry doesn't always have exact idea what goes on with higher powers.
ading
Topic
07:44:49 AM Jan 18th 2014
How is saying "this level is usually reserved for God and the Author" offensive? It's not swearing, it's referring to an actual God.
IndirectActiveTransport
11:22:49 PM May 1st 2015
It's not.
mewarmo990
Topic
07:37:14 AM Oct 9th 2013
edited by 76.172.88.137
I reorganized the introductory section while keeping it mostly the same. It still had some vestiges of "power levels" in it, so I have clarified those areas to emphasize the scope of character abilities, rather than pure strength.
rottenvenetic
03:49:58 AM Nov 23rd 2013
edited by 79.114.55.134
Regarding this exact change, there are definitely more than vestiges of power levels in the examples, most commonly between types 3 and 4 (to a lesser extent 5).

By which I mean that, in works with numerous tier 3s, the most skilled/experienced/formidable are placed in tier 4 to put them above the "normal" supers.

For example, in Harry Potter, Voldemort, Dumbledore, Grindelwald, house elves and any rightful owner of the Elder Wand are tier 4'd without ever showing that kind of personal effect on their surroundings.

With something like a year of absolute power, Voldy is able to wreak incomplete devastation on Magical Britain (apparently a small disparate and vulnerable community of several thousands) and some not-really-significant damage on mundane Britain (a small-ish country with a large, compact population), using an army of wizards and magical creatures (notably all of the Dementors are entirely on his side). A tier 4 villain is capable of worse havoc by itself with no aid from any Mooks; Riddle, whose most compelling displays of power are killing a large number of people at once when they're confined in one (large?) room and already in awe of and terrified of him, generally making most people soil themselves in dread at the thought of him due to his monstrous crimes combined with martial success and not-dying until the very end of the series despite losing at least one body (his original) outright.

If Super Weight were to include one's armies and minions than the likes of Adolf Hitler and Joseph Stalin would rate as tier 4 at least, if not borderline 5 (Stalin moreso, since the Soviet Union already had working nukes in his lifetime).

Death itself is rated tier 6 as a "character" based on its appearance as such in a Story Within a Story; this is a little suspect as well.

Another example: Claymore's resident heavy hitter the Destroyer (a unique awakened being motivated solely to destroy everything around itself, born from the merger of two sisters, one awakened already and one an unawakened hybrid, who kinda-died while both on the wrong side of the Despair Event Horizon) is able to destroy (at most) a few square miles of forest, infect a few characters and spawn a bunch of D-list awakened beings. The Destroyer is rated at 5, while the tiers' descriptions would peg it at a borderline case between 3 and 4, with everyone from Clarice (weak enough to be comparable to an unaugmented human) through all Youma, warriors, Awakened and Abyssals up to Priscilla (undefeated even by the Destroyer) being clear 3's. Priscilla can presumably mop the floor with 10,000 Clarices in one sitting (possibly while literally sitting) but she is still just a Super, limited to affecting only her close vicinity. Certainly she is not in any way in the league of, say, Darkseid or Sarah Kerrigan.
Morgenthaler
Topic
01:59:20 PM Mar 30th 2013
Should this page be moved to the Just for Fun namespace?
IndirectActiveTransport
09:05:11 PM Apr 3rd 2014
Before I would have said yes, now I'm not too sure since the page has mutated into something far away from its original self.
DonaldthePotholer
Topic
08:49:11 PM Jun 1st 2012
edited by DonaldthePotholer
All right, I want to get something straight here. Again. (reference: Archived Discussion)

From the last paragraph of the description before the table, Emphasis mine:

Also note that this isn't Gushing About Characters You Like; when adding examples, make realistic assessments of their power level according to the scale and in terms of the setting.

Note the words I bolded: "in terms of the setting". To me, this means that In a World where Everyone Is a Super, that most Supers would rate 0 or 1. (Can I get an a-men from Syndrome here?) But it seems like the entries of the scale are classed by our definition of "normal" and not the setting's.

Can you fly? Even though it's normal for your species and said species is listed on your world's census forms? That makes you a Class 2 at minimum! (yay.)

"I cast Magic Missile." Congratulations, level 1 Mage, you're Class 3!

Now, Archived Discussion seems to have come out in favor of a Real Life-based scale and the examples favor this interpretation. However, it makes all that talk of "based on setting" meaningless.

I don't know; perhaps all I need to do is change the contradicting statement to indicate that the scale is based on our world and not the fictional setting, with an added note that the threats of those settings are usually scaled to match the setting's average power level.
Cider
01:54:11 PM Nov 30th 2012
Well, in the original proposed and launched you know the thing where entry it was universal across the board, regardless of setting.

Rank Inflation there were also only five categories]] and I really don't like what the page has since become because it only changed in response to those who wanted to treat it like the then locked page Who Would Win, so making it strictly setting by setting would put a damper on that.

There are my two arguments for either action.
Morgenthaler
01:58:53 PM Mar 30th 2013
Agreed. The line seems inherently contradictory, and we should probably amend it to cut out that part.
mewarmo990
02:50:27 AM Oct 9th 2013
edited by 76.172.88.137
As it's been nearly a year with no objections, I will go ahead and amend the line to omit "based on the setting". This is more consistent with the current criteria of the weight categories.
Masterweaver
Topic
09:58:09 AM Mar 16th 2012
I've started a Super Weight listing for H Omestuck. it's probably missing a lot, any help would be appreciated!
EarlOfSandvich
Topic
06:32:11 AM Feb 22nd 2012
edited by EarlOfSandvich
Moved a few genres into their own subpages (Anime and Manga, Comics, Video Games [this in particular making up a huge bulk of the entries here]). Just wondering about what anyone else thinks here...
HamburgerTime
Topic
06:45:37 PM Feb 21st 2012
Does a Type 7 have to be completely, utterly, entirely, absolutely 100% confirmed to be no-limits-whatsoever omnipotent, or is there some wiggle room? Particularly I'm wondering about the Marvel Universe's Living Tribunal character, who displays a level of power beyond basically anything else in that setting. It's shown that the wielder of the Infinity Gauntlet, to which the Anthropomorphic Personifications of the universe are like ants, is itself like an ant to the Tribunal, as he could turn the gauntlet off and restore all it destroyed by snapping his fingers. There was also a one-shot comic in the '90s that implied that he was far greater than the entire DC and Marvel Multiverses put together. Though it's been rare, he has demonstrated limits, as there's an unseen being even higher than him and he couldn't escape being absorbed into the Heart of the Infinite in Marvel: The End (though he could resist it for a time), but apart from that he has consistently shown that he can bend the plot basically any way he likes. That sounds pretty "Author Weight" to me.
pyr0h1tman8
10:20:05 AM Feb 22nd 2012
Well, the way I've understood it is that they have to be absolutely, no wiggle room, 100% omnipotent. Anything lower than that and they are "just" a Type 6.
Jjp7123
04:57:40 PM Dec 14th 2013
edited by 69.116.37.217
Actually, no. There are four exceptions I found for you to be classified as a Type 7 without being fully Omnipotent(there might be more): Nigh Omnipotence: http://powerlisting.wikia.com/wiki/Nigh_Omnipotence Ultipotence: http://powerlisting.wikia.com/wiki/Ultipotence Piathifery(if powerful enough): http://powerlisting.wikia.com/wiki/Pathifery Cyberpotence: http://powerlisting.wikia.com/wiki/Cyberpotence Sorry I'm a little late :P LOL!

ading
12:35:54 PM Mar 9th 2014
@Jjp: Have you actually had any discussion on this matter? If not I don't think your word can be taken officially. The description says that Type 7 must be absolutely omnipotent.
434411423124222344
11:49:38 AM Sep 23rd 2015
This is a necro, but by that logic Eru Ilúvatar, minus., the Emperor-beyond-the-Sea and so on should not be classified as omnipotent as they are not truly infinite omniversal beings who can survive being hit with trillions of universes at once. Lord English can (each Genesis Frog contains a infinite number of alternate universes and he can destroy them, so it stands to reason he can tank one), and yet he is classified as type 6 (alongside Galactus who is what? Universe Level+ when extremely well fed?) because he is not completely omnipotent.

The big problem with this system is its simplicity. Compared to the VS Battles Wiki system, it has far less tiers and cannot properly determine the rank of multiversal beings.
pyr0h1tman8
Topic
05:32:16 PM Feb 21st 2012
Okay, this is asking a question to those more familiar with Digimon:

Is there any evidence as to whether the thing that sealed Zeedmilleniummon was omnipotent?
HamburgerTime
06:58:22 PM Feb 21st 2012
edited by HamburgerTime
We know nothing about what the being above ZMM is, except that it sealed ZMM. There is, however, a mysterious "God" entity mentioned in various Digimon's official profiles, apparently distinct from both Yggdrasil and ENIAC (the host computers that run the Digital World). Daemon's profile in particular implies that this being is the human who originally programmed the Digital World, and who now resides within it. That's probably the best guess to what sealed ZMM. Outskirts Battledome, for what it's worth, ranks "God" and ZeedMillenniumon as being of the same power.
pyr0h1tman8
10:16:53 AM Feb 22nd 2012
Ah. Then would it be a Type 6?
EarlOfSandvich
Topic
05:04:00 AM Feb 10th 2012
edited by EarlOfSandvich
The works in this thread have been moved to respective discussions. Please scrap.
EarlOfSandvich
05:08:10 AM Feb 10th 2012
edited by EarlOfSandvich
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EarlOfSandvich
05:08:30 AM Feb 10th 2012
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EarlOfSandvich
05:09:23 AM Feb 10th 2012
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EarlOfSandvich
05:09:52 AM Feb 10th 2012
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EarlOfSandvich
05:10:58 AM Feb 10th 2012
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KingZeal
10:07:29 AM Feb 14th 2012
I'm going to break comic books into categories based on what "family" they originate from. (X-Men, Bat-Family, Wildstorm, etc.) It's becoming too difficult to keep them organized otherwise.
EarlOfSandvich
Topic
05:03:06 AM Feb 10th 2012
edited by EarlOfSandvich
The works in this thread have been moved to respective discussions. Please scrap.
EarlOfSandvich
Topic
05:02:17 AM Feb 10th 2012
edited by EarlOfSandvich
The works in this thread have been moved to respective discussions. Please scrap.
EarlOfSandvich
Topic
05:00:51 AM Feb 10th 2012
edited by EarlOfSandvich
The works in this thread have been moved to respective discussions. Please scrap.
EarlOfSandvich
Topic
04:51:04 AM Feb 10th 2012
edited by EarlOfSandvich
Please scrap this thread too
EarlOfSandvich
04:52:40 AM Feb 10th 2012
edited by EarlOfSandvich
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EarlOfSandvich
04:54:30 AM Feb 10th 2012
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EarlOfSandvich
04:58:51 AM Feb 10th 2012
edited by EarlOfSandvich
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EarlOfSandvich
04:59:23 AM Feb 10th 2012
edited by EarlOfSandvich
content moved to subpage discussion. Please discard this post
EarlOfSandvich
Topic
04:49:23 AM Feb 10th 2012
Well, a new system has been decisively decided upon through the Trope Repair Shop. I will be listing off the works in need of repair to reflect the new system.
VVK
Topic
07:54:46 AM Dec 2nd 2011
About Sluggy Freelance:

It may be hard to explain how Bun-bun doesn't have any superpowers, seeing as he can pick up and toss beings several times his own size. But there is also no indication that he's really supposed to have any, ie. that it's not just a case of Rule of Funny / Rule of Cool.

On the other hand, "holiday emperor Bun-bun" - He was slowly warping (holiday related) reality with his mind and preparing to take over the world. http://www.sluggy.com/comics/archives/daily/20040104 Level 4 seems to be the best bet.
VVK
02:58:17 AM Dec 10th 2011
Why would Oasis and Kusari be 3? A list of their powers would be almost the same as a vampire's.
RandomGMan
Topic
05:58:33 PM Oct 28th 2011
edited by RandomGMan
I have a few queries.

1: For Doctor Who, shouldn't the Cybermen be Type 2? They are superhumanly strong, but not in a class with Time War Daleks.

2: Shouldn't the Star Whale be a Type 3? It has a lot of raw power, but is not a true Reality Warper (at least not by Doctor Who standards).

3: While the Silence is easily one of the most formidable forces in the Whoniverse, the alien manipulators can be overcome in small numbers.

4: Why is Data a Type 3? (See Cybermen query above).

5: In raw musclepower, Applejack is the strongest of the Mane Six. This would put her on the same level as most of her friends.
TheMalignancy
11:42:21 AM Nov 22nd 2011
edited by TheMalignancy
1: All civilizations with access to time travel are tier 4, by default. The Cybermen, having superhuman strength/intelligence/logical thought are a low tier 3 at highest and a mid tier 2 at lowest. Not too sure which, and fairly certain it depends on how competent the writers have decided to make them. For context the Time Lords are tier 5, generally serving as more background detail and narrative devices rather than actual characters.

2: Yep.

3: Silence are type 2 highest, and one of the many things this scale is ill-designed to judge due to their memory thing.

4: No idea.

5: All ponies are tier two by default, due to being ponies and only having one power each. Not sure why they're on the fighting ability index, what with being all hugs and rainbows, but hey.
RandomGMan
07:15:04 PM Dec 3rd 2011
edited by RandomGMan
1: I think there should be a distinction between individual power and collective power. Individually, Cybermen would be at least Type 2. Collectively - as with many space opera civilizations - they must be at least a high Type 3. Time travel access is a matter of degree, because even 20th century humans have limited time travel in the Whoniverse. Collectively, the superpowers of the Whoniverse (Time Lords, Last Daleks, Silence, Osirians etc) would be very very high Type 4, with the Time Lords having the potential to ascend to Type 5 if the Final Sanction is anything to go by.

5: For some reason, Applejack is Type 1 while all her (canonically) physically weaker friends are Type 2. However, her strength is clearly more akin to Spiderman than Batman. And Twilight is a Type 3 if I ever saw one.

And the ponies aren't all hugs and rainbows. They're the fightingest, badassest, awesomest ponies you ever saw.
Hydronix
Topic
03:26:20 PM Sep 24th 2011
Wait, if Shadow The Hedgehog is clearly more powerful than Sonic, and can do a lot of stuff based upon Super Weight 3, how is he considered a 2? Sonic can barely beat him, and he's almost as powerful as a Super Form as is. Why is he 2?
KingZeal
03:40:47 PM Sep 24th 2011
Being somewhat familiar with the character, I'd say that Shadow w/o a Chaos Emerald is a Class 2. Shadow w/ a Chaos Emerald is a Class 3. Super Shadow is a more powerful Class 3.
Hydronix
04:13:31 PM Sep 24th 2011
Ah, okay. Thanks.
SiFi
Topic
02:42:26 AM Aug 19th 2011
So would Maxwell be a Type 6?
HamburgerTime
Topic
11:52:09 PM Aug 5th 2011
I'd like to question the inclusion of Krona as a Type 5. Wasn't he explicitly less powerful than Nekron? I haven't read Trinity or JLA-Avengers; did his power increase in either of those?
Ramidel
Topic
01:24:46 PM Aug 5th 2011
Kisei, does any Overlord top Laharl's two big displays of power? (Destroying the entire EDF fleet, solo, while holding back, and being the only Overlord to canonically defeat Baal.)

Because I think that winning a Curb-Stomp Battle by firepower is a call to put a character either in or above the other character's tier (or to drag Baal down a level and I'm not prepared to do that).
Ramidel
Topic
07:24:47 AM Jul 20th 2011
I'm thinking that Dragon Age is a Long List, but one composed mainly of people who can be separated by their Character Class or other type of being. Should I chop the list down?
TheMalignancy
Topic
07:50:49 AM May 20th 2011
Okay, I hate to be the one who point this put but this scale is just plain terrible. The problem with the tier structure is that everyone keeps judging people comparative to other people in their works (for example we end up with Fred being ranked as a class higher than Bob due to him being shown as more powerful in the show, whereas in actuality they're both the same rank when doing it by the actual criteria). It's also completely none-indicative of its actual purpose, which is to sort out who would win in a theoretical fight.

Take the ever-present Haruhi, for example. She's listed as a class 5, but she's completely unaware of her powers and could therefore quite easily be taken down by pretty much anyone physically stronger than a fifteen year old girl or even just anyone who could find a weapon.

As much fun as this page is, it's completely useless for what it's actually meant to be for. Is there any way we can sort this out?
Montegoraon
07:36:00 AM Jul 1st 2011
Adding to the above, the relative strengths of characters isn't even always as clear cut as these weight classes make it seem. Here's an example from the Shin Megami Tensei series: Nyx, the personification of death from Persona 3, is a class 5, unable to be defeated by the persona user player character because doing so would require altering the very nature of the universe (and given the series' metaphysics, would probably cause time itself to stop), which is quite simply beyond the purview of the abilities a persona user may have. Here's the problem. There are also characters in the series who are capable of existing betwixt and between time and space, and are capable of altering the nature of a universe, and even multiple universes simultaneously, as the Demi-Fiend does in his True Demon state. The Demi-Fiend does not qualify as a class 5 because he isn't any kind of force of nature, but he is explicitly capable of doing away with them, thus breaking the scale.
StarMeilene01
09:39:00 AM Aug 6th 2011
A true class 5 is something that alters reality just by being there. It is the force or personification of a concept and its existence corroborates the idea and vice versa. Nyx, being the personification of death itself cannot be destroyed without destroying death itself. She does and always will exist until the concept of dying is no longer part of reality. Consider Haruhi's situation, she warps reality, but unconsciously. If a normal person tried to take her down her subconscious would not accept it and quickly rewrite a portion of reality to accommodate a winning scenario. Any type 5 that exists is part of the Truth of that particular universe and cannot be ended but by a larger piece of truth changing.
TheMalignancy
07:57:31 AM Aug 23rd 2011
Book 11 proves that that's not true, and you could just stab her to death before she had time to react. Your scale doesnt work.
zoner16
01:28:25 PM Oct 19th 2011
If she is killed, then what happens to the world? Without the person who is essentially making things run the particular way they do, there are only two logical ends. One is that the world instantly reverts to how it was before she began messing with reality. The second is that it just ends (or falls apart) for want of the cornerstone it was built on. Unless she still existed as a consciousness or someone else instantly reabsorbed her powers it would not end well.
TheMalignancy
11:34:56 AM Nov 22nd 2011
edited by TheMalignancy
And? The point isn't the fate of the people who try to kill her (and they'd survive anyway, being a type 4 reality warper and her master), the point is that a type 4 was able to effortlessly very nearly kill a type 5 (and was stopped by a type 1). Seeing as the function of this list is to serve as a "who would win in a fight" list and the lower tiers are populated with people who could kick higher tier's asses already, we need to either re-shuffle or think of tier definitions that fail less.
Cider
04:55:50 PM Dec 5th 2011
The function of the list is what you can do, not who wins in a fight and is partially around just to keep gushing off of Person of Mass Destruction, Power Levels, Ratings Are Off The Scale and such.

If someone lacks the ability to be on type five four or whatever fix it. The scale has been put through the trope repair shop(could still be in their while you're reading this).
hoodiecrow
Topic
01:01:35 AM Nov 26th 2010
edited by hoodiecrow
Motion Withdrawn.
78.15.205.74
Topic
03:00:24 AM Nov 17th 2010
Guts could technically count as a type 3: He has a magic armor and his sword is somewhat "magical" being able to wound a member of the hand. His cnnon arm also technically qualifies him as a cyborg ( a rather low tech one though) and the mark gives him the ability to detect apostles.
174.101.173.157
Topic
02:52:49 PM Oct 10th 2010
I'm kinda bothered by how a character's placement is followed immediately by a justification. It makes the whole thing look messier then it needs to be.  *
OldManHoOh
02:55:07 PM Oct 10th 2010
 *
88.110.135.86
Topic
04:38:20 PM Sep 30th 2010
On the topic of the D&D weight classes, shouldnt the PC classes be segregated more by level rather than by class? Also on the same topic, would anyone be in favour of shifting the Lady of Pain into type 5 (she ticks all the boxes, and is type 5 in the Planescape: Torment section)?
HeartBurnKid
Topic
06:15:56 PM Sep 29th 2010
On the WWE classes, I wasn't just putting the women as type 0 against men because they get beat by them; I put them there because they're always portrayed as completely and utterly helpless against men (male wrestlers, anyway). It's clearly meant to show the men as being a cut above the women.
Cider
04:51:30 PM Dec 5th 2011
Yeah, that should likely be fixed, unless the person is treating each match like it's own story.
rffrff
Topic
12:57:16 AM Aug 8th 2010
edited by rffrff
isn't there a missing class for the mook and it's ilk? People who can almost always brutalize normal people but will always fail against the iron man.
OldManHoOh
06:59:53 AM Aug 8th 2010
My guess is that would be Class 0, with the citizens as -1.
Cider
04:52:36 PM Dec 5th 2011
Criminals fight a lot you'd assume. Depending on how well they'd be a 0 or 1 unless they had powers.
94.9.133.108
Topic
12:40:05 PM Jul 21st 2010
Can anyone fix the comic book sections (DC, Marvel etc.) into various series? No such thing as notability and all that. Plus, DC and Marvel are publishers. Yes, there's a shared universe, but there's a reason why crossovers are called that. And does Vertigo even HAVE the same shared universe excuse the first two have?
94.9.179.3
Topic
07:43:44 AM Jul 15th 2010
I think that as of the later David Tennant years, the Doctor may be pushing Type 3.
OldManHoOh
04:17:43 PM Jul 26th 2010
Though it's hard to tell how much of his power there is his Time Lord biology and how much is technology.
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