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Damngoodcitygirl
topic
10:01:50 PM May 3rd 2010
So, what do you do if you're writing about a different time period? If a character is supposed to be unfortunate or average looking, do you describe them as today's version of unattractive, even if this would have been considered gorgeous back in the day? Or do you try to make it historically accurate, even if it makes the character sound drop-dead gorgeous by today's standards?
SomeGuy
01:55:23 PM May 4th 2010
A lot of this trope is in the tone. For something like historical fiction, even assuming a third person narrator, we would expect that the story is related by someone familiar with cultural mores of the time. So, let's say we're in a time period where fat people are considered the hawtness, and our lead is a thin person who is attractive by modern standards. Averting this trope would mean defining our lead, not in terms of positive exploration (willowy frame, slender legs, delicate arms), but a more negatively tinted one (stick-like frame, spindly legs, stiff arms). It's all a matter of language.

...I should probably put this in the article proper, too.
GirlwithAPlot
03:42:21 PM Apr 11th 2011
Yes, that's exactly what it's about. Heck, I kept thinking Bella Swan, Bella Swan, Bella Swan, Bella Swan... the whole time I was reading that. When she describes herself in the book, she uses words like "ivory" skin, "slender" build, "soft" (which is supposed to mean 'not all that muscular), and Curves In All The Right Places. Then she proceeds to gripe about being plain and wonders why so many people at her new school are attracted to her. If I were to rewrite that narrative, I would've used words like "pale", "bony" or "stringy", "hardly able to boast of any muscle". Yeah, Bella is pretty much the poster girl for this trope.
Shoebox
topic
03:41:32 PM Aug 20th 2010
edited by Shoebox
Deleted the below example (and accompanying natter) because:

a)Anne's appearance is explicitly based on this photo of contemporary model Evelyn Nesbit. Anne is not supposed to be plain, just not conventionally pretty for her time (in which, yes, carroty-red hair was considered a huge flaw. Throughout recorded Western history until the very, very recent advent of socially-acceptable dye jobs, golden blonde locks have been a perquisite for beauty). Introducing Anne for the first time, Montgomery makes the point both that Anne is attractive and that this is only visible to the truly discerning — and this does not change as Anne grows older.

b)Anne's temperament changes as she grows older simply because she matures — going from a talkative, accident-prone kid who has trouble controlling herself to a more thoughtful, sensitive woman. This is normal character progression, and at no point does it become Suetiful. That she becomes less interesting as the stories go on has much more to do with the fact that Montgomery shoehorns her into more traditional modes of behaviour at the same time (giving up her writing dreams for marriage/children, for example.) __________________

  • The titular character of Anne of Green Gables is also accused of this. She is introduced as plain, skinny, and red-headed, but is described in such a way that it's hard not to picture an ethereal, soulful-eyed waif. And her initial flaws of a fiery temper, tendency to nurse a grudge and sheer klutziness fade or become irrelevant to the extent that by the end of the first book she's acknowledged as beautiful, and selfless, brilliant, is right about everything that matters and can fix almost anything with The Power Of Love.
    • L.M. Montgomery appears to have recognized this, as books like Anne's House of Dreams and Rainbow Valley put more focus on the interesting side characters around Anne. Rilla of Ingleside completely shifts the focus from Anne to her flawed and compelling youngest daughter, Rilla. However, the two books written after Rilla - Anne of Ingleside and Anne of Windy Poplars - feature a heavily watered down Anne from the one most commonly known. Basically, if you just read Windy Poplars as a portrait of a quirky town with Anne as the Fixer Sue running around, you'll enjoy it much more.
    • And since when is red hair an unattractive trait?

luff
06:42:41 AM Mar 9th 2011
edited by luff
deleted.
luff
topic
06:43:28 AM Mar 9th 2011
What about the Doctor from Doctor Who?
Scardoll
01:35:23 PM Aug 20th 2011
Since he doesn't match the criteria (Kinda hard for a character from a visual medium), he doesn't fit.

Actually, most of the live action examples don't fit.

It seems people are just listing Mary Sues here instead of Mary Sues that are presented in a negative light at first but are gradually revealed as beautiful/awesome/whatever.
sdmitch16
topic
09:25:51 AM Aug 25th 2011
The laconic version doesn't explain that they must be presented as not being the 'Mary Sue'.
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