Main Starcrossed Lovers Discussion

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09:33:19 AM May 6th 2015
There is a jaw-droppingly long wall of text about The Vampire Diaries, under the Live-Action TV section. Already fixed the one under Literature, but I'm honestly not sure what to do with this one. Anyone else feeling particularly ruthless?
12:30:00 PM May 6th 2015
That was added by a sockpuppet of a banned user who adds massive examples from The Vampire Diaries and Teen Wolf. Full banned them and you can take the entry out.
12:00:04 AM Apr 22nd 2015
This wall of text was added by a persistent ban evader, and it needs shortening anyway:
  • Achilles and Briseis in Troy. Achilles and Briseis are a case of Opposites Attract as they are from opposing sides yet they fall in love with each other. Personality wise, they could not be more opposite. Achilles is a Jerkass, a Jerk with a Heart of Gold, a Blood Knight, The Berserker and a Byronic Hero and Briseis is the Princess Classic (she is cousins with Princes Hector and Paris), the Proper Lady, The Ingenue, the Damsel in Distress, the Nice Girl (albeit with a lot of spunk and feistiness) and the Living MacGuffin. Achilles is also a non-believer religiously and Briseis is a priestess who believes in the gods. In a lot of ways, Briseis represents a Morality Pet and The Conscience for Achilles, who is seen to be arrogant, brash, cocky and aggressive in nature. Achilles is a Greek while Briseis is a Trojan, cousin of Princes Hector and Paris. Hector unknowingly kills Patroclus (Achilles' cousin) and to get revenge, Achilles kills Hector in return (Briseis' cousin). This causes much tension in their dynamic. However, later on in the film, it is clear that Briseis has a rather strong impact on Achilles' personality as Briseis is seen to "humanize" Achilles; she makes him become more human and less of an aggressive warrior and killer. Towards the end of the film as Troy is falling, Achilles goes on a mission to save Briseis from getting hurt or killed. Achilles finds Briseis and saves her life from Agamemnon's men who are attempting to hurt her or kill her after she had killed Agamemnon herself. Sadly, Paris ends up killing Achilles through the use of a bow and arrows while he is trying to save Briseis' life. Achilles meets his foretold doom. Briseis refuses to leave a dying Achilles. As he is dying, Achilles confesses that he loves her and that amidst all of the violence, she had given him peace in a lifetime of war. After Achilles continues to convince Briseis to leave with Paris and flee the fallen kingdom of Troy, Briseis flees with Paris and Achilles dies alone.
    • Prince Paris and Helen. Similar to the romance of Achilles and Briseis, Paris and Helen are from opposing sides, as Paris is a Trojan and Helen is a Greek. Prince Paris is a Trojan prince who falls deeply in love with Helen, the Queen of Sparta, who is also married to Menelaus, who is the King of Sparta. The marriage between Menelaus and Helen is an Arranged Marriage, therefore, Helen did not really love Menelaus to begin with. Because of the fact that they are from opposing sides and that Helen is married to someone else, their love is strongly forbidden. Troy and Sparta had made a peace treaty with each other after many decades of being extreme rivals and enemies with one another. However the love affair between Paris and Helen changes all of that. Menelaus discovers Paris and Helen's betrayal. Menelaus is deeply angered and enraged and wants Helen back. He asks his older brother, King Agamemnon to go to war with him. Basically, The Trojan War was started because of Paris and Helen's love and passions for each other. Many unnecessary deaths and casualties had occurred because of Paris' love for this one woman in Helen.
07:02:51 PM Aug 25th 2010
edited by ZellThe5th
So. On a note completely unrelated to the friendly little debate that's been raging merrily here, I wonder (and posit for consideration) whether or not the "miss-use" of the term 'star crossed' to mean fated or destined to cross paths/be together is actually worthy of some contemporary validity. The term is, after all, suitable for interpretation either way at face value (as evidenced by the the very miss-use itself). Moreover, as etymology shows, terms are subject to natural evolution and progression over time. In other words, should the fact that people apply the erroneous meaning to the term, and the fact that that meaning is sound as a purely literal-figurative interpretation, give the meaning some modern credence?

I'm putting the question out there to see if people think it might be worth noting the erroneous usage not as such on the trope page, or not only as such, but possibly as an increasingly emergent counter-point usage as well.
06:30:27 PM Jan 18th 2011
Wasn't the original point of Romeo and Juliet that the relationship had no chance since it was entirely based on looks.
12:53:13 PM Nov 21st 2011
I think too many people still know the old meaning (and it's too usefull a term to have around) for that, but I'm not a linguist.
01:04:52 AM Aug 13th 2010
edited by
Hey guys let's go back to the discussion of how it is implied that the bond between Sesshomaru and Kagura is canon and would most likely been continued if he had killed Naraku and freed Kagura before her death.

And the fact that the bond between Sesshomaru and Rin is canon but just maybe not in the romantic way that most people seems to like, although maybe it could have been if the manga continued, partly due to Kagura being dead.

Ignore what I typed above, it's late and I'm not sure if that made any sense.

I think that is the argument here isn't it? But here let's name all the camps.

Camp #1: Sesshomaru and Rin's romantic relationship is canon. Their relationship is "obviously" implied to be romantic as of the story's end. Kagura is "obviously" implied as just a side character with the sole purpose for developing Sesshomaru's character and that's why she's killed as the final push for Sesshomaru, completing her purpose. Her romantic relationship with Sesshomaru doesn't exist, the romantic relationship is not canon and is fan fantasy.

Camp #2: Sesshomaru and Rin's romantic relationship is canon. Their relationship is not yet romantic relationship as of story's end but it is "obviously" implied that if there are just a couple more chapters with Rin eventually growing they'd be together. It is “obviously” implied that Kagura is still just side a character, their romantic relationship is not canon and is fan fantasy.

Camp #3 Same as #1, except Kagura and Sesshomaru’s romantic relationship is also canon, and she is not just a side-character, her death is simply a plot-flavor by the author, if the author decided not to kill her then it is “obviously” implied that she would have been with Sesshomaru and it may or may not have been turn into a love triangle situation. But since Kagura is dead as of the story’s end, it only leaves Sesshomaru with young Rin. Love triangle between Kagura Sesshomaru Young Rin

Camp #4 Same as #2 following the latter part of #3 Love triangle between Kagura Sesshomaru Older Rin But since Kagura is dead as of the story’s end, it only leaves Sesshomaru with future Rin.

Camp #5 Sesshomaru and Kagura’s romantic relationship is canon. Their romantic bond is “obviously” implied up until the story’s end even after Kagura’s death. Sesshomaru and Rin’s platonic relationship is canon and will be forever, but their romantic relationship is not canon, forever.

Camp #6 Sesshomaru and Kagura’s romantic relationship is canon. Their romantic bond is “obviously” implied during the time she’s alive. But now she’s gone it is implied that Sesshomaru is no longer attached as of story’s end. Even then, Sesshomaru and Rin still only share a platonic relationship, and even if Kagura’s dead Sesshomaru and Rin will not form romantic bond.

Camp #7 Sesshomaru did not have romantic interest at all throughout the entire story up to the story’s end. But it is still “obviously” implied that Sesshomaru still shares a platonic relationship with Rin though, and that is canon.

It is obvious Soojin is Camp#5, as of most Kagura/Sesshomaru fan. Most Rin/Sesshomaru fans are Camp#2, though there are some #1s

So all that's left is each camp provide their own evidence on the "obviously" implied part of the manga that supports their theory.

But based on what I read and I read the entire thing, Soojin came up with more reasonable amount of "obviously" implied cases within the manga that supported her camp's viewpoint than the ones provided by the camp#2 people.

And I would like to just clarify, if they "would have" then it's canon. So don't use "she's dead" or "she's young" as excuse. If Kagura is alive they would have been together is enough to say their romantic bond is canon. Same goes for if Rin is older as well.

Then it just turn into insults which just hurts me because I came here for Inuyasha discussion damn it!

But seriously, what do you think is more "obviously" implied as of the end of the manga.

Me personally I don't think I see that many "obviously" implied hints to show Rin loves Sesshomaru as more than a father, maybe when she grows older she would, but as of the manga's end it did not indicate that for me so their romantic relationship is not canon. But for sure it is pretty "obvious" the way the manga portrayed Kagura's feeling for Sesshomaru, but his response to that is still murky, but I can definitely see him allowing her to tag along to his party if she is alive after Naraku's death and maybe they can form something. So definitely Kagura had more potential than Rin as of the story's end, and that puts me into camp#5 as well.

Yeah yeah I know how can someone dead have more potential than someone young and alive. I know that, but as of the story's end Kagura really has the advantage, since we don't see what Sesshomaru think most of the time, it is up the the girls and their behavior they've shown up to the manga's end, if had Rin show just a small sign of romantic interest for Sesshomaru then that would change anything because she's still alive at the end of the manga and that'll tilt to her favor. "Yeah but she's still a kid she didn't know what romantic love is yet" ...Well the author decided to end it there isn't anyone's call but her's so maybe it was intended. Anyway this is my view, I really can't cite page numbers like you guys, but I have to say in general, if I walk to an average Inuyasha fan and ask "when you are reading the manga, do you feel like Kagura might had a thing for Sesshomaru" as opposed to "do you feel that by the end of the story, the manga is giving you the feeling that Sesshomaru and Rin will marry eventually". I honestly don't feel the latter.

Or it could be just Sesshomaru didn't like anyone romantically yet AKA camp#7, and if there is ever a spin off series about him, we'll be introduced his lady friend there.

04:16:59 PM Sep 5th 2010
If view in the most explicit way, the proper answer will have to be #7 because in the end Rin isn't grown up and Kagura is dead.
06:20:30 PM Sep 6th 2010
Kagura being dead doesn't mean he didn't like her, and RT seems to hate May-December Romance type things so camp #5 for me.
05:38:53 PM Sep 11th 2010
I ship Sess Rin but I know that Sess/Kagura is the canon pairing, come on now, even Rin herself recognizes that.

Also, I'd like to apologize for the trolls above (if it really is who I think it is, they are known wankers and they have a reputation for having persecution complexes and for being nazi-like over this pairing). Not all Sess Rin shippers are like that. Some of us can actually respect peoples' rights to dislike what they want and we don't go around trying to silence everyone that doesn't like the stuff we do like the people above. Jesus christ, all that over a polite disagreement. What happened to free speech.
11:35:34 AM Sep 30th 2010
  1. 5 for me too, but then again I am biased lol
11:59:22 AM Sep 30th 2010
I wish I knew what those people were, but I don't, let's not talk about this.
03:58:11 PM Sep 30th 2010
edited by animenena
  • CAMP 5 sorry.
10:15:08 AM Oct 12th 2011
Camp 5. Kagura being dead doesn't mean it isn't a canon pairing, it just makes it a case of The One That Got Away.
06:27:04 AM Feb 11th 2012
"Yeah yeah I know how can someone dead have more potential than someone young and alive"

Because whether a pairing is canon or not isn't about whether they are alive, it's about whether the characters have feelings for each other. Sesshomaru and Kagura and romantic feelings for each other while Sesshomaru and Rin don't, so Sess/Kagu is canon and Sess/Rin isn't though Rin is alive.

Just like Inuyasha/Kikyo is canon and Inuyasha/Sango is not though Kikyo is dead and Sango is alive because Inu and Kikyo have feelings for each other and Inu and Sango don't.
07:09:38 AM Feb 11th 2012
And Seshsomaru's response was murky?? Are you kidding me? Kagura's part was murky (wanted to see him before she died) and Sesshomaru's part was definite (Tenseiga changes into a fighting weapon because an empty hole has been filled in his heart for the first time?)
09:48:13 PM Sep 3rd 2013
Why is it that when people say it's one sided, they always say it's one sided on kagura's part? Why doesn't anyone say it's one sided on Sesshomaru's part. Kagura only made a comment about wanting to see him one last time before she died and that was pretty much it. Sesshomaru repeatedly saves her, risks his life to defend her, his sword transforms into a fighting weapon cause of his feelings for her, and then he vows over the sword to avenge her.

The stuff that he does for her are clearly much bigger than the stuff that she does for him. So wouldn't it make more sense to say that it's one-sided on Sesshomaru's part and that Kagura is the one that sees him as a friend?
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