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Severen
topic
05:29:32 PM Feb 4th 2014
Ever since Anvilicious has been moved to the YMMV section, it seems that wherever it's listed as a trope, this trope will accompany it.

I guess it doesn't mean much since it's in the YMMV section, but it can seem quite annoying to find this trope on certain pages. Should there be more strict criteria for adding it, even considering the YMMV tag?
Pvblivs
topic
04:44:16 PM Oct 14th 2013
In my experience, very few anvils actually need to be dropped. And the biggest problem isn't the lack of subtlety in the message. Anyone can just blatantly write out what his message is and everyone will know what he is saying. There is no subtlety there and it is not a problem. The problem with dropping anvils is that the reasoning for the conclusion often seems contrived and unrealistic. We can agree that stealing is wrong. But if an author creates a world where meteors demolish the homes of thieves, that is not a case of Some Anvils Need to Be Dropped.

The worst outcome for a message is not that it is misunderstood. The worst outcome is that it is rejected for being preachy. And the reality is that anvils usually hurt their message.
LordTyph
topic
10:03:51 PM Jan 26th 2013
I'd like to suggest adding a particular quote from Cute Fuzzy Weasel, who does the Feeding The Trolls set of video. It deals with James the Preacher after his... pretty insane insinuations on what caused a school shooting that happened recently at the time (He delayed doing the video for a month since he felt it was Too Soon after the shooting, as did the fans). At the end of it, where the quote is from, he gives a pretty good speach on people like James the Preacher; people who have this insane world-view in which trying to correct them only serves to solidify their belief in some weird space logic way.

—-

Cute Fuzzy Weasel: So I started thinking that there's always going to be people like James here. The trick is dealing with them (in) the right way. You gotta remember... (Picks up James effigy) he lives in a world where everyone's against him. Where any note of criticism isn't a learning experience; it's an outright attack on him and God! Going on the offensive against James here only solidifies his view that the demons in his head are real. And they talk to him over Youtube comments! You see, people like James and the Westboro Baptist Church; they exist because they're attention whores. They're out to get a rise out of people. The best way to take their thunder away is... just never give it to them in the first place. So if people like James the Preacher want to think that life was better off when women didn't have any rights and Christianity was crammed down everyone's throats, I say 'fine'.

So here you go, James. Here's some rocks... some sticks... and a dead animal. Have fun in the Stone Age.

—-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ci1JqNXAIYs

There's the link in question.
Pvblivs
04:25:57 PM Oct 14th 2013
It's not a weird space logic. And it perhaps gets into why I think very few anvils "need" to be dropped. Laughter, ridicule, and isolation (which you and apparently "cute fuzzy weasel" seem to advocate) are not sound arguments.

I could only watch a little bit of your link. I was just thoroughly disgusted — at "cute fuzzy weasel." I think James is wrong about "getting right with god." But when he says that there are people that get their jollies from attacking him, he's right. You look at those comments. Those aren't people who want James to see the error of his beliefs. They are people who want him to die a slow, painful, horrible, death.

I would like you to consider for a moment. Suppose James the preacher and people like him successfully got his viewpoints enshrined in law. Suppose schools had to teach that as reality. And further suppose that, in response to your speaking out against it, you were given some sticks rocks and a dead animal and told to "have fun in the Stone Age." Would it convince you that you were wrong? Would it convince you that you needed to shut up? Why, then, do you think that is the "right" way to deal with someone who disagrees with you?

You claim that he is just trying to get a rise out of people — that is that he doesn't believe what he is saying. On the other hand, you talk about "correcting" him only solidifying his views — which means he does believe what he says. Let's go with him believing what he says. The demons in his head may not be real. But the people wishing death on him are. It is not space logic that wishing death on someone is not going to convince him that he is wrong. Beating someone over the head and telling him to believe your way "or else" is not a good tool for correction.
krimzonflygon2
09:31:53 AM Mar 15th 2014
edited by 74.70.16.35
I think you're missing the big picture.

Weasel actually makes a point in his "50 Shades of Stupid" about just that: he actually calls the people giving death threats to the Troll (or to be more accurate, a related troll) out, says THEY'RE in the wrong for doing so, and tells them to knock it off.

But what he's ultimately saying isn't that death threats are the key: just the opposite. He's saying that the more you argue and debate with James, whether you're civil as can be or a raving maniac, the harder and harder he's going to hold onto his views. He's saying that James sees anyone who disagrees with him as the devil and treats them accordingly, and that arguing with him will just end in headaches on both sides.

So really, just leave James alone in his fantasy "Stone Age": God Himself couldn't drag him out of it. That's what Weasel is saying: the guy who has a webshow dedicated to feeding trolls is saying DON'T FEED THE TROLL. That's the message he's trying to get across: the anvil he drops.

And Weasel makes good on his promise: he's never doing James again.
gilda4ever
topic
06:03:05 PM Jan 20th 2013
It feels like many of the examples here aren't anvilicious, just regular Aesops. Spec Ops: The Line seems like a good idea of an anvil that needed to be dropped; it slapped the message right in your face, basically saying "This is your fault, no one else's." Some of the others are gradual or even subtle. I feel like "anvil" just gets thrown around to easily.
Pannic
03:30:37 PM Mar 10th 2013
Yeah. People are getting a little carried away.

This trope means "This work is extremely unsubtle about what it's preaching about, but really, it's warranted and something worth saying."

I really don't think that applies to Scream.
gilda4ever
topic
06:03:03 PM Jan 20th 2013
It feels like many of the examples here aren't anvilicious, just regular Aesops. Spec Ops: The Line seems like a good idea of an anvil that needed to be dropped; it slapped the message right in your face, basically saying "This is your fault, no one else's." Some of the others are gradual or even subtle. I feel like "anvil" just gets thrown around to easily.
gattsuru
topic
08:34:50 PM Jan 6th 2013
The Sword of Damocles. It's about as subtle as a freight train, but it's an excellent demonstration of the perils of absolute power.

I might be wrong, and as a result are hesitant to remove this without confirmation, but last I checked that's not the aesop of the Sword of Damocles story. The king doesn't and never had absolute power, nor does he give that to the person he has sit under the sword, nor does the sword represent the perils of power itself. It's more about the risks leaders face: folk that provide the feast also know who to blame for failure or for the wrong decisions.

And as good as Sex Education is as a thing, I'm not sure it's an 'anvil'.
lu127
moderator
topic
03:38:08 AM Nov 9th 2012
Redrich
topic
08:31:49 PM Jul 4th 2012
I really disagree with the position about Last airbender and Trigun. Both series shows that kid's idealism only leads to more struggle and pain. Vash sacrificed to his ideal lives of hundreds of innocent people. He could have saved them instead of the bad guys. He has kid psychological trauma, but that's a bit petty excuse. Aang is even better, he is hypocrite. His beloved teacher might have the biggest bodycount in the entire series. Aang himself isn't particularly accurate fighter that is able to care about his opponent. I am most assured that he left plenty of dead bodies on his trail. People tend to die when they are thrown into a wall at subsonic speed or when somebody drop a 100 kg rock on them. Although i tend to think that nor airbenders, nor avatars held no importance to the world, in universe it stated otherwise. And Aang was risking both of them only to fulfill his idealistic wish. His egoistic wish. True messiah indeed. It worked out for the best? For Aang- maybe. The rest of the world didn't care. Ozai surely disagree with this. But it's okay to torture bad guys.
Strejda
12:44:27 AM May 21st 2013
edited by 70.33.253.45
Gyatso killed people in selfdefense and not judging people for not holding your beliefs is hardly hypocritical. And people of Avatar world can take huge amount of cartoonish beating without getting hurt (yes, it didn't work for Jet, but that case was inconsistent with rest of the show) so no, he didn't.

Taking away his powers is hardly a torture and if you have to choose between crippling a person and killing him, crippling is the better option.
Whitewings
topic
10:12:46 PM May 16th 2012
Eep! I edited the comics folder, and the entire folder structure went wrong! How do I undo the edit?
Dommie222
topic
06:17:01 PM Sep 30th 2011
So Jordan, You want me to tell you why I continue to delete those anvils. Well no problems, these are the reasons why:

  • For the first one, I just can't remember which episode that anvil is supposed to play in. I just remember the necessarity of lethal force in case of deadly sistuations against murderous nutjobs, not that you must have "the right feelings" in doing those hard decisions.

  • For the second one, well lets be honest here, the ending sucked, no doubt there. It was obviously rushed, probably because the writers just wanted the series to end already so they killed off the main villain with some BS ways and then putted that anvil afterward because, well it's the norm of kidsseries, right. If the writers had putted some more effort into the last episode (an example like a "Villain near victory, kids pretty beaten up but dont give up, kids uses their close loyalties to each other to figuring out a strategy and then executing it well, the battle become long and brutal but due to their abilities to work, to think, to fight, to die together as one the kids wins, villain dies, happy ending, last message to the kids" kind of ending, you know like the one in Tamers) than it probably would had worked but with the "Villain near victory, kids talks dreams, villain dies, happy ending, last message for the kids" kind of ending it just fall short for the anvil to work.

I hope it were enough explanations for you.
Jordan
08:01:15 PM Sep 30th 2011
I'm not familiar with the episode/work in question, I'm just saying that you obviously have a Violence Really Is the Answer viewpoint (indeed, you added an example that advocated that anvil), and I don't think it's a good enough reason to delete an example because you didn't like the work/don't agree with the message.
Dommie222
08:59:11 AM Oct 1st 2011
So you tell me and everyone else that you don't have any proofs that those anvils, atleast the first one, actually exist in the series because if you don't than it doesn't matter what kind of personal philophosies I've they shouldn't be in the trope in the first place than. You can't claim you know the message of a fiction work if you arn't familiar with it.

Jordan
09:47:24 AM Oct 1st 2011
If the anvil isn't one that's present at all, then that's an ok reason to an example. But from the way you describe it, it sounds more like you don't think that someone should get that message from the work, which isn't quite the same thing.

Since it's a Just For Fun page, I'd say that unless it's completely off the wall, people can add any example they want to the page.
Dommie222
02:03:56 PM Oct 7th 2011
I didn't say that someone must get the message, I said that you can't claim you know it if you arn't familiar with the story. And you still havn't given your proofs

Besides, if someone would write things down in the trope with your logic than I might write that the anvil in an example like M is "child serial murderers are people too and you should feel sorry for them whatever horrible crimes they did, and only assholes refuses to recognize it, no less putting him in a trial". I haven't seen the movie and so arn't really familiar with it but hey I think that's the anvil so I'm gonna write it down and you can't take it down 'cause anyone can write whatever example they want. Yeah, the logic doesn't really hold there.

CEOIII
topic
01:44:48 PM Sep 28th 2011
  • I personally thought there to be two such anvils in the ending. The first was connected to If You Kill Him, You Will Be Just Like Him; basically you need to look at your WHY; if you're killing someone out of hate or revenge, then no matter how noble your reasons, you're just like the person you're trying to destroy. That's why I find the whole defeating the villain with the brighter side of humanity to be a Crowning Moment Of Awesome. Then there's my second anvil which is actually in the much-hated epilogue: There is always going to be evil and evil doers in the world...but a few good people fighting to stop it can make the world a better place.

Alright, Dommie222, be a man and tell the class your problem with this.
AMNK
11:50:44 AM Nov 3rd 2011
edited by AMNK
1) First person is prohibited, especially in examples. This is not Troper Tales nor TVT is a forum or blog. 2) If an entry is wrong, you should fix it instead of responding. Conversation in the Main Page is prohibited.

Those two are the main faults of that entry.
Piledriver
topic
04:26:03 PM Jun 3rd 2011
edited by Piledriver
Don't they all?

My point is that this entry seems superfluous and inherently bigoted. If not every heavy-handed 'moral' needs to be pushed, who decides which are worthy? Any random wiki editor? (Ever shifting) social consensus?

Nah... Either they are all equal in the market of ideas, or this entry is just an exercise in popular bias.

Strongly suggest merging examples here into the main Anvilicious article.

In addition: I see that the main "Some Anvils..." entry has been edited to clarify that the trope is supposed to reference works that were made better by their heavy-handedness. While I still find that very very subjective, it certainly rules out a lot of the examples cited here. Take your pick, there's a high probability that the example was cited only because the wiki editor agreed (perhaps very strongly) with the Aesop in question, not that the work was necessarily made better, or because there was an inherent "need" — barring inherent bias of the wiki editor.

Someonebesidesomeone
04:30:56 PM Jul 11th 2011
Maybe all the examples were put here because they were subjective, keeping natter material away from the main page. Still, something like "YMMV: Anvils That Needed To Be Dropped" would have been better.
Jobbeybob
10:21:34 AM Sep 4th 2011
They should change the name of it. It isn't about anvils that need to be dropped, it's more about anvilicious works that do it well.
Warron
topic
09:14:43 PM Aug 20th 2010
Darth Wiki pages generally warn you in the description not to make justifying edits. Should there be something like that here, saying not to argue the merit of the Aesops?
213.249.135.36
12:09:04 PM Aug 22nd 2010
Yes, I'd like to know the answer to that, because some of them give me the shivers. Such as "Killing is wrong. Even when it's necessary, its still wrong." Swans are white... even when they're black, they're still white....
SeanTucker
06:12:35 PM Nov 30th 2010
The Trigun example you quoted just seems poorly worded to me; they seemed to be going for "shooting the dog will take a massive toll on you if you do it too often" rather than "be an Actual Pacifist even if it kills you."
AMNK
05:16:09 PM Jan 18th 2012
ACarlssin
topic
03:23:21 PM Jul 6th 2010
My father totally doesn't get the message in Phil Collins's "Another Day In Paradise".

I don't really have a point, here, I just... needed to tell someone that.
190.53.248.149
topic
10:42:15 AM Jul 4th 2010
Where are the examples?
AMNK
05:38:27 PM Oct 25th 2011
VVK
topic
02:03:08 PM Jun 16th 2010
I removed "Of course, one should keep in mind that the author of an Anvilicious work almost always believes that his or her particular anvil is one of these." after reading this under Square Peg Round Trope: "•Some Anvils Need To Be Dropped refers to when a story has an Anvilicious message, but the story actually works better because it's so blatant. Due to the misleading title, it's often used to say "any message I agree with that was done in an Anvilicious manner"." Now, that removed part would make sense if it was the latter definition that was the real one, but I don't believe it's true if it claims that all anviliciousness is born from someone trying to make a point by being the opposite of subtle. Surely it can come about because someone is not realising how unsubtle they're being.
iwillneverusethisagain
12:53:49 PM May 15th 2014
edited by 69.204.127.26
When this trope is used on the rest of the wiki, it's almost always used to mean "any message I agree with that was done in an Anvilicious manner".

This page needs an overhaul, either by changing the Anvilicious page to be more neutral and deleting this one, or cutting out all the examples on both pages and removing their entries elsewhere. Every author thinks their anvil was something that needed to be dropped; whether a work appears here or Anvilicious (or both!) comes down to whether a troper agreed with it.
back to Main/SomeAnvilsNeedtoBeDropped

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