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IndirectActiveTransport
topic
04:30:19 PM May 21st 2014
edited by 69.47.43.173
I'm changing the professional wrestling section. I will leave examples where a heel is unfairly called a slut, an example where men get free passes, but a "slutty" baby face usually does little more than flaunting her body (never mind 90% of American wrestling gear is only slightly less revealing that underwear). Baby face generally do not cheat on romantic/sexual partners or sexually manipulate people to get ahead. The heels usually do something to get "slut" chants rather than them just happening as soon as someone makes a heel turn. I don't remember Jacqueline, Chyna or Victoria getting called "sluts" during any of their heel runs, not even Melina who actually did an incredibly slutty thing by sleeping with Batista just to try and ruin his chances against her boyfriend. The complaint that Eve was called "Hoe-ski" just for speaking her mind is a lie that ignores fellow heels Beth Phoenix, Natalya Neidhart and Vickie Guerrero were not getting similar chants.

Also, calling someone "bitch" should not count, not in this form of media. Men are called bitches about as often as women, some women call themselves bitch without any hint of irony. Okay, so men never self identify with any hint of self respect but it does not carry the same connotation as "slut" at all and is veering close to complaining about heels being unpopular.
Katsuhagi
topic
11:30:33 PM Oct 20th 2013
I don't see how pointing out that women are subjected to slut shaming far more than men is a "feminist agenda" so I restored this to the description.

"It tends to be far more overt for women than for men, and men tend to get more leeway than women with different standards of promiscuity for either gendernote , but the key is punishment for promiscuity, real or perceived."
Touphi
11:56:42 PM Oct 20th 2013
Because it's unnecessary. "It's this really bad thing, and oh by the way it happens more to women than men." Let the examples themselves be evidence of that. All that line adds is pointing out injustice toward the female gender, which is fine but not trope relevant.

But really, I won't fight it. If you think it fits, then it can stay. It just looks, from my perspective, that the feminist agenda sweeping through the Internet is hooking its claws into this site and taking away media-based objectivity in favor of pushing a point.
Katsuhagi
09:35:12 AM Oct 21st 2013
edited by 50.78.244.50
Again, I don't see how pointing out a fact (that slut shaming happens to women more than men and women are held to different standards) is pushing any sort of point. Besides which the concept of slut shaming is also intrinsically tied to feminism since the term was invented by feminists to describe an issue (mostly) women face.

I won't even touch on the other stuff you said.
OolonColluphid
topic
11:02:54 PM Feb 28th 2013
edited by OolonColluphid
This should be a ymmv entry as this reeks feminist POV pushing then an actual trope.
Larkmarn
07:13:47 AM Mar 1st 2013
It shouldn't be YMMV, it should be in-universe examples where a character is shamed for his/her promiscuous behavior.

Now, the description? Needs work since I do agree with you there, it's a bit overly feminist. The second paragraph could probably be cut without any loss to the description but would come across as much more neutral.
wellspring
01:20:54 PM Apr 22nd 2013
Agreed. This is totally YMMV. For most of the examples, the shaming is supposed to occur in the eyes of viewers. In the Buffy examples, they're all cases of sex = death, which is a different trope. The only cases that should be here are cases where a character's sexual activity becomes the subject of ridicule and/or personal judgement on the part of other characters. That means most should be cut.

And I agree that the description needs to be totally re-written. "The times, they are a-changin', and people who have sex don't get quite the punishment they used to, but Slut Shaming happens every day." That's not a trope they're describing, it's a social issue. Same thing with the note at the end. Whether or not someone should be allowed to disapprove of someone having too much or not enough sex has nothing to do with TV or tropes. It may be a great soap box, but it's still a soap box.
efay
topic
10:08:56 AM Dec 18th 2012
I think we need to clarify the description further. The concept of slut-shaming is not just about promiscuity - it's about people (usually women) being shamed expressing their sexuality period. You can slut-shame someone for being in a monogamous physical relationship if you don't approve of premarital sex. You can slut-shame a virgin for wearing what you perceive to be a sexy outfit. It's called "slut-shaming" not because the target has multiple partners but because that's usually the epithet used when condemning them.
MercuryInRetrograde
01:56:35 PM Dec 18th 2012
If we want to be comprehensive about people being shamed for expressing their sexuality period... then I would argue that "slut shaming" is just as prevalent for men.

Consider how people view female sex toys versus male. Male sex toys are considered more depraved. Male homosexuality versus female. Male homosexuality is considered more depraved. Men who want to have oral, anal or anything other then missionary penis-in-vagina sex. Men who are into kink are considered more depraved and, in fact, more likely to be really desiring to subjugate and humiliate their partners through these disgusting acts. Male submissives in BDSM, also considered creepier and depraved then female submissives. Male dominants in BDSM, considered more depraved and violent then female dominants.

In fact the only domain in which male sexuality is seen as less shameful then female seems to be in quantity of heterosexual sexual partners and even then that's balanced out by shame towards men who chose _not_ to engage in sexuality either due to personal beliefs or asexuality.
MercuryInRetrograde
01:59:57 PM Dec 18th 2012
Just thought of another area. Clothing choices.

Women are shamed for wearing "slutty" clothing, but men rarely make the choice to wear revealing clothing outside of certain accepting subcultures. This is because the shaming directed towards men in revealing clothing is not only massive but also menacing, to the point where men don't wear it at all.
Iaculus
02:23:05 PM Dec 18th 2012
Then again, men can wear less clothes without it being considered sexualised. Compare and contrast the reactions to a dude and a lady wearing tank-tops in hot weather. Hell, even a tiny speedo can go without comment in the right context.

So the reactions to men wearing sexualised clothing can be more severe, but what is defined as sexual is often much narrower.
MercuryInRetrograde
07:35:23 PM Dec 18th 2012
Another thought is that male sexuality is seen as more potentially damaging then female so men tend to be more insecure about sexual behaviour on their part being wanted/acceptable.

Would that be classified as a form of shaming sexual expression?
Iaculus
03:16:47 PM Dec 19th 2012
edited by Iaculus
'More' may be an overstatement - The Vamp is an old, old trope, as is its nastier version, the Black Widow. Men are seen as more physically intimidating in general, but not necessarily more sexually intimidating.
MercuryInRetrograde
11:11:17 AM Dec 20th 2012
"but not necessarily more sexually intimidating."

I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with this one. I think the penis is considered a weapon in a way that the vagina simply is not.
surgoshan
08:39:24 PM Dec 20th 2012
I think you're right, MIR. However, when a man is sexually aggressive, the threat comes by virtue of the possibility of violence. When a woman is sexually aggressive, I believe the threat is based on the overturning of gender norms, rather than the possibility of violence. See: Family Guy when Lois learns karate. "Brian, last night... Lois was the man."
Iaculus
02:21:07 AM Dec 21st 2012
^^ A different way, yes, but not necessarily a greater one. 'A woman's vagina is her greatest weapon' (with the subtext, admittedly, of 'because a sexist society won't allow her any others') has been a meme for quite a while. Even outside the overtly lethal stuff that is the Black Widow's stock in trade, you've got things like The Baby Trap, The Vamp's 'mind control of a powerful man through her hoo-haa', and so on. It's a quite different kind of paranoia, but similarly potent.
MercuryInRetrograde
10:00:13 PM Dec 22nd 2012
@ surgoshan

"I believe the threat is based on the overturning of gender norms"

There are a surprising number of men who fantasize about being submissive in heterosexual sex. More then fantasize about being dominant, apparently. Source: http://www.people.ku.edu/~phawley/Publications/HawleyHensley_JSR_%202009.pdf

Although I agree that it's likely exactly that, when it shouldn't be. There is no reason to see women as less capable of severe violence in pursuit of their sexual desires. Humans are the weakest animals on the planet and the most dangerous because we use tools.

@Iaculus

Yes, however those things are "sex+" issues. I'm just talking about the genitalia themselves. Men's are seen as literal weapons; women's aren't.
yoyoftag
topic
11:18:23 PM Oct 20th 2012
There can be few examples of slut shaming since the term was invented in the early 21st century as a political slogan.
surgoshan
08:58:37 AM Oct 21st 2012
It's absolutely impossible to find examples of class warfare in history prior to Marx. Evolution didn't happen before Darwin invented it. Before the discovery of nuclear physics, no one ever noticed the sun.
abomb30
06:13:58 AM Dec 11th 2012
edited by abomb30
Nope.
MrDeath
07:56:08 AM Dec 11th 2012
...You're not a very astute student of history, are you? Both the OP's statement and your B are completely, utterly wrong. Like, no room for debate, you are just completely factually wrong, and I'm a little amazed you might have ever thought it was correct.
abomb30
05:26:16 PM Mar 1st 2013
edited by abomb30
Also nope.
AsamisaKY
12:12:25 AM May 23rd 2013
There can be one, but TBH anything would sound like feminist-pushing propaganda. I'm not saying there are perfectly justifyable cases out there, though.
loracarol
topic
12:42:58 AM Sep 16th 2012
edited by loracarol
  • In the Star Trek reboot, Uhura has nothing but contempt for slutty Man Child Kirk.
    • In a moment of typical (in general, not necessarily for Kirk) hypocrisy, when his Orionan one-night stand tells him to hide because her roommate wants her to stop bringing guys to the room, Kirk pauses to ask "How many guys?"

Is this really an example? Uhura is frustrated because he hits on her, even when she's not interested, and later, because he

1) acts like a man-child 2) he was in her room, without her knowledge, while she was undressing. That's pretty skeevy.

I just don't see how there's any "slut shaming" coming from Uhura "unless you count the 'sex with farm animals' line, which comes after he tries to flirt with her, when she's not interested.

So, I'm cutting it until we can discuss it, because 'slut shaming' is about shaming someone for havig sex, what Uhura is doing (at least, to my point of view), is getting pissed off at someone for hitting on her.

Anyone have a different POV?
coolman229
01:17:28 PM Nov 7th 2012
I support this.
lalaone
topic
03:51:56 PM Mar 27th 2012
Why was this cut out when I tried to add it, but when this person adds this it's ok?
surgoshan
11:03:13 AM Apr 6th 2012
I really couldn't say; recall that things like this tend to get slammed hard by MR As at the best of times. However, I put it through the YKTTW, got examples, got hats, edited this way and that, and added it. I hope it's here to stay. Perhaps in the interim the internet got a little more savvy about misogyny and religious prudery?
Xzenu
05:36:24 PM Apr 7th 2012
Good work!
jatay3
topic
11:25:13 AM Mar 5th 2012
And the connection to Sex Is Evil is dubious. Being a slut by definition means going outside accepted rules for sex.
jatay3
topic
11:03:23 AM Mar 5th 2012
edited by jatay3
And is Hester Prynn an example of Double Standard? I didn't read the book but I do know of history and the Double Standard was more a product of the cavalier code which was separate from the religious code even when they existed in the same culture and it would be more likely in the south then in a puritan colony. The only real Double Standard in New England, I should think, would be that women get caught more easily(by pregnancy) and the man can get away if he is to much of a Dirty Coward to confess.
RTanker
07:48:26 PM Apr 3rd 2012
I have read the book, and you have a point. To Dimmesdale's credit, he all but publicly begs Hester at one point to name him as her lover, saying that it's possible that the man in question (referring to himself, of course) really wants to come clean, but is afraid to, but that she'd be doing him a great favor by revealing him. Needless to say, he's very much afraid, with reason, of what would happen to his reputation were he to be exposed. So I don't think there is a double-standard.
jatay3
topic
10:59:10 AM Mar 5th 2012
The article seems rather biased toward the proposition that being a slut is not in fact shameful. At the least the activity often(whether for men or women) requires getting people into bed by being a Manipulative Bastard, and betraying one's last partner.
lalaone
03:51:33 PM Mar 27th 2012
No it does not. Not everyone is involved in a relationship. The majority of Ethical Sluts do not use any form of manipulation but only good consent and do not betray anyone because there is no partner there to betray.
RTanker
07:45:39 PM Apr 3rd 2012
Regardless of the fact that not everyone who is promiscuous is in a relationship or is manipulative, this article is still heavily biased toward the idea that promiscuity is not morally wrong.
emeriin
11:34:24 AM Jun 4th 2012
edited by emeriin
Editing for too much angry TMI.
Telcontar
moderator
01:14:42 PM Jun 4th 2012
edited by Telcontar
<was taken care of>
Xzenu
04:01:45 PM Jun 4th 2012
Is being a slut shameful or not? Well, the answer is simple:

  • In some works, it objectively is.
  • In other works, it objectively is not.
  • In yet other works, it is ambiguous.

TV Tropes is about works.
efay
09:59:59 AM Sep 9th 2012
You don't have to actually be promiscuous to get slut-shamed. In certain eras and certain cultures, women could get this for having premarital sex with a single guy. Slut-shaming generally happens when other people don't approve of your sexual behavior or perceived sexual behavior. (This refers to consensual sexual behavior BTW - rapists and other predators absolutely deserve to be get shamed.)
Cauvin
02:24:27 PM Dec 9th 2013
And is even that something TV Tropes should be soapboxing about? Not the double-standard part, mind you, but the basic, gender-neutral idea that premarital sex is sinful? There are plenty of intelligent and well-intentioned people who believe that, after all. Or is traditional religious morality not just outmoded, but so self-evidently wrong that it doesn't even deserve sympathetic treatment?

That's a distinction that's really not evident in the article as written. It seems to take the modern autonomist feminist line (with its abject horror at being "judged") that traditional morality is intrinsically sexist, and therefore the only way outside of sexism is to obliterate all the old norms that gave society order and meaning. That's something that I think bears a lot more discussion. If we should not stand athwart history, we should at least take a critical eye toward its more torrential rumblings.
SomeSortOfTroper
topic
09:04:25 AM Jun 12th 2010
edited by SomeSortOfTroper
re:Cut

I'll refer the interested contributors to the judgement on the case of Victim Blaming, the prior existence of Really Gets Around and to #46 on You Know You Read Too Much TV Tropes When....
Katsuhagi
11:30:06 PM Oct 20th 2013
edited by 50.78.244.50
Edited: wrong topic reply
ykttw archive back to Main/SlutShaming

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