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ElaineRose
topic
01:35:33 PM May 29th 2011
Discussion from YKTTW (your issue may already be here)

reply: Pulling this trope off is the reason why people have Ponytails, Braids, and stuff like that.

But do examples of braids and ponytails count? If so, I know a few I could add.

reply: Yeah, there's probably some relation between this, Slipknot Ponytail, and Girlish Pigtails. There's overlap between this one and the latter two, though I wouldn't go so far as to say that the latter are subtropes.

reply: Any hairstyle works, as long as it fits being "simultaneously a short cut and a long cut."

reply: Mullets?

reply: Two points:

1: What exactly is the hairstyle? The description isn't clear, it just assumes you know what it means. Does this mean short bangs and framing of the face with long hair in the back? Are there any specific variations? Are male styles different from female styles? What about the overlap with Hime Cut?

2: Why is this important? Does having short hair in front and long hair in back signify something? Otherwise this is People Sit on Chairs. Does it maybe signify something like a dual personality? For example Ayeka being a Tsundere underneath the surface Yamato Nadeshiko? Although I'm not sure about that, I thought Ayeka had a Hime Cut to go with being a traditional princess type.

If those points can be answered then I think there can be a trope here.

Haqua, the Tsundere from The World God Only Knows might be an example, depending on how this trope develops.

reply: It means short hair all around, except for the portion of hair that is significantly longer—long enough to be tied into a ponytail.

I would generally disagree with it being "People sit on chairs"—there are many character-design specific tropes (like the ones mentioned), and this is the specific crossing of two.

Since this is based in character design, I would have to suggest a quick google image search for visuals.

The definitions really could stand some help, if anyone would oblige with more descriptive/helpful definitions.

reply: This trope would be stronger if you could say more about what the style says for the character. Since long hair = beauty (especially in Japan, where I suspect this trope is most common) and short hair = practical, perhaps it is a compromise between the two, given to an Action Girl to make her a little more feminine?

  • Yuna from Final Fantasy X-2 has relatively short hair, except for a very long braid from the back underside that nearly reaches her feet. How she grew that much hair in two years is an unexplained mystery.

reply: One of my concerns is that we already have Hime Cut which is a combination of short hair and long hair, and will probably be a majority of examples. In fact of all the examples mentioned so far, only Ozma Lee does not have a Hime Cut.

How do you differentiate?

reply: While it is a popular character design, whether it means anything is a problem. Even the tentative meaning proposed by ccoa is kind of shaky for male examples. Luca from Saint Beast has this style, but I don't think the long hair part is meant to make him feminine (unlike another some other characters from the show).

@Sackett: Yuna is not a case of Hime Cut, at the very least.

reply: Any long hairstyle with bangs is a milder version of this: cropped forelock removes the full mane related problem of hair in in the face. The other extreme is short wisp (such as Taranee from W.I.T.C.H. has), which is essentially a short cut with a decorative wisp of long hair.

For Hime Cut and other common-as-dirt examples, I suggest we just add a line of "a lot of characters with normal or Hime bangs" without bothering with a boring laundry list of characters who "just have" the styles.

Then again, if there's an Important Haircut where someone cuts away one of their Princess Curls to fare better in battle but keeps the other to honour her promise to seize back the kingdom that is her heritage... Or any other way the importance or meaning of the haircut is elaborated... Then it's all ok to have an entry.

reply: I'd say it's definitely tropable, although the distinction needs some variation from Hime Cut. So, a variation on layered hair?

  • Sui-Fon (the captain of Squad 2) in Bleach.

reply: Do the male characters have anything in common as far as traits go? It's not necessary for hair and costume tropes to have meaning, but it makes for a much stronger trope (compare Girlish Pigtails). At the very least, we could say what it says about female characters, if there's a connecting thread.

I don't think Hime Cut actually overlaps too much if this trope is what I think it is. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it isn't only about a combination of short and long hair (which would include any long style with bangs, and thus be too broad to be tropeable), it's about a character that has a fairly normal haircut (with or without bangs) of short to middling length, but a much longer section of hair, usually from the back and layered under the shorter hair.

It probably frequently overlaps with Anime Hair, since such haircuts are improbable at best.

reply: I think bangs/fringe shouldn't be included in this. As peccantis says, they keep hair out of your face and also create a softer look for those who can't pull off the more severe Show The Forehead thing. And they're so common. I'm pretty sure long hair with bangs is People Sit on Chairs. What I'm curious about it whether a really mixed hairstyle of long and short (that may or may not include bangs as well) isn't and again, what does that say about a character?

reply: Yuna is an example of how this does not overlap with Hime Cut—sure, she's got side bangs, but that's hardly Hime. Ozma? Not a trace of Hime Cut.

What Short Long Hair seems to say about the character is different for males and females: For males, it's a manly "normal" haircut in addition to Bad Ass Longhair. For females, it's the independence, spunk, and Action Girl qualities associated with Short Haired Hottie without sacrificing the Rapunzel Hair to go blowing in the wind. With Kaede from Negima: short says she's the kickass ninja, long says she's one of 23 potential love interests. I'm not familiar with the Final Fantasy or Bleach examples, but they're both obviously fighters—the cut is for a fighter who isn't sacrificing the femininity of long hair.

reply: Would the Sailor Starlights count?

reply: Would this girl count?

reply: @Rainbow: Indeed and thank you @Lord Laharls Vassal - No long ponytail is visible in the picture, so no.

reply: Changed the picture from Princess Ayeka from Tenchi Muyo! to Kaede from Mahou Sensei Negima!. Kaede seemed a better example visually, and the caption reflected the trope.

Any thoughts on images? Was Ayeka better, or is there a better picture of Kaede? Needs hair focus.

And is there any count of just how many love interests Negi has? "Sixty-three" looks nice, but if it's false I'd like to change it.

reply: Fixed the caption formatting for you.

However, I object to the caption text, as the various styles imply nothing of the sort. I can see short hair maybe implying Action Girl, but what does the long ponytail have to do with being a contender in a large Love Dodecahedron?

Additionally, Ayeka is not an example if we are excluding Hime Cut.

Also, it seems to me that there are two hairstyles being combined here. This "short bob plus ponytail" style, and the mullet. Should they really be combined into one hairstyle?

Doesn't the style serve different purposes for male and female characters?

reply: Just a question. The picture from before was Ayeka right? Does she not look like that normally? Because that picture was not a Hime Cut. Her bangs were anything but level, she had similar looking long strands at the front (and the back?) but also a pretty full bob going as well at the back. So I'm kind of confused.

reply: Title suggestions: Ponytail And Bob or Bob Plus Long Locks, something like that? Short Longhair doesn't really convey the hairstyle to me by itself. Short In Front Long In Back might describe it most clearly.

reply: Does the short hair have to be a Bob Haircut? None of the Sailor Starlights have that, they just got really long ponytails.

reply: ^similarly, Sophie from Howl's Moving Castle.

reply: Thanks for the caption edit. If there are suggestions for a better picture/caption, then please share them. The caption was an attempt to tie in the action/femininity aspect of it, and tie it back in to the nature of the show Kaede is from. If it fails, then it needs to be rewritten.

Definition of Hime Cut: Bangs in front with a lock of hair cut on either side to frame the face, long hair in back. (Yes, Ayeka does have a Hime Cut.)

Short In Front Long In Back does not describe the trope since the short haircut has to be all around. Sui-Fon has a short cut all around, as does Ozma Lee, Kaede, Yuna, and all the Sailor Starlights. Yoruichi from Bleach, for example, has short hair in front, but not a full short cut independent of the long ponytail, so she does not fit.

No, it does not necessarily have to be a bob haircut. None of the sailor starlights have one, but each does have some short/cropped cut and a long ponytail.

Sophie does have long hair during the movie, and short hair at the end, but since she didn't have long hair and short hair at the same time she does not fit.

reply: Perhaps final fantasy/RubyUrameshi/Final Fantasy/0d5f2125.jpg?o=259 this picture with the caption "Short hair gets the job donelong hair makes it look good."

reply: Out of pure curiosity, would this boy count? Those are Hair Antennae but they are much longer then most are, but they are on the top of his head.

reply: I'll leave the judgement call to you—does he fit the male Short Longhair criteria of a normal masculine hairstyle (the short hair portion) with a side of Badass Longhair to boot? If so, then throw him in. If not, then don't.

reply: Don't think this is a good pic, can barely see the long-haired parts, and the caption honestly doesn't make much sense in my opinion. I thought the other pics of Ayeka were fine.

reply: Ayeka is a Hime Cut.

reply: She had Hime Cut sections AND the rest of the way of the top layer of her hair cut at a different, much shorter length. I can sort of see how it might cause confusion, but I don't really know if this pic is better, I could barely tell that was hair behind her to the point I didn't realize it on my first look.

reply: ^ So she does qualify for this trope then? I'm really starting to get confused as to what is being complained about (it doesn't help I'm not familiar with the show either, but still, from the pic...)., I mean, if she has a Hime Cut then she would just belong on Hime Cut, but if her hair has elements of both Hime Cut and a mix of short hair, then why wouldn't she be this trope (and would it not simply be mentioned on Hime Cut that she has elements of that cut but doesn't play it straight)? What is the issue?

Also, turning this into an example proper:

  • In Saint Beast, Luca's hair looks like a normal short cut from the front but has a very long wrapped ponytail at the back.

reply: Hmm... that's true, Ayeka is a variation on the Hime Cut that seems to overlap with this trope.

Do we just put her on both pages then?

Also, I still think that Mullets should be different then this trope.

reply: @Sacket: lol, thank you for the Wall Banger moment, and for reading the discussion up to this point.

@wherismytea Yes, the hair is short in front, but not all around, at least from my google image search.

Again: Short Long Hair has to be a full short cut—not just in front—with a noticeable section of long hair. Examples of close, but not: Clan Klein from Macross Plus, Negi Springfield from Negima, and Yoruichi from Bleach. Please google or bing image search if you are unclear. If anyone can figure out a more clear way to explain this, please do.

Short Long Hair and Hime Cut are neither mutually inclusive or mutually exclusive—one can very easily happen with or without the other.

In about one day or two, this YKTTW is either going to be discarded or Up for Grabs. There doesn't appear to be enough clear examples (except for these: Sui Fon, Yuna, and Kaede). I'd hate to see the YKTTW taken to mean something like bangs or layered hair, but at the current rate, it's just not worth troping.

reply: @Elaine Rose: But isn't Ayeka's hair longer in the front and shorter in the back (although, I don't see how reversing changes the trope)? Google image search does not help with how confusing and arbitrary these distinctions are becoming. I can see why Yoruichi is not an example (she just has cool bangs), but Negi differs too much among the artwork coming up on Google to really judge and Clan Klein seems like she should be legitimate (definitley two seperate short/long hairstyles going on, bangs, longish sideburns, one set of short pigtails, and one set of long ones, and just judging from appearance it does suggest both spunky and fun while simultaneously having beautiful long locks at the same time—which is what we're saying this is supposed to be visual shorthand for in women, right?)

Whatever you do with this ykttw (and I don't think it necessarily needs to be scrapped, but should not launch anytime soon either), it needs clarity badly because I can't see how anyone supposed to figure out what qualifies and what doesn't at this point.

reply: Ayeka's hair in front is a Hime Cut—bangs with two locks to frame the face. Then the top layer of her hair is styled in a short cut. Then she has very long hair in two tails.

Thinking of Negi from the anime—looks like he has a spiky bowl cut on top and a short ponytail. Maybe he should be considered an example.

For Clan Klein going off of what images I can find and a cosplay wig that has the hair fully long in back. No short layer in back = not this trope. So, even though she certainly has a lot going on with that hair of hers, it's not this, as far as I can tell.

And as far as the YKTTW, it does seem pretty useless. I really can't imagine people searching for character types by this. Badass Long Hair has a point. This, however, if it ever did have a point probably no longer does.

reply: Well, there's another example: Marche from Final Fantasy Tactics Advance.

reply: Indeed.

reply: I don't think the other partial-this-trope suggestions fit, but I DO think Ayeka does. Hers appears cut short all the way around and if you didn't see the pony tails, you'd think she had short hair with two only slightly longer parts in the front.

reply: "Short Longhair" sounds to me like a person who is short with long hair. Might I suggest Short Hair And Ponytail? Or something better.

reply: ^I second this. Maybe Short Hair Illusion. Looks like the have short hair, then you notice the ponytail.

reply: Not sure if this REALLY qualifies... but I was immediately reminded of the Padawan haircut from Star Wars. It's kind of a mullet variation: mostly short/fuzzy, with a ponytail (rattail?) in back and a thin braid down one side (which is severed upon Knighthood).

reply: I have another example: Makoto from Idaten Jump.

reply: bump?

reply: Micaiah Chevelle from Nanoha Vivid.

reply: I grew up calling this a Rat Tail.

reply: Yeah you should add an entry on the Rat Tail and Duck Tail in the Real Life examples. Would the Bob be considered the inverse of this? Since the hair is short in the back and longer in the front.

reply: Nope, since it doesn't have the short hair and super long tail. See images: Kaede from Negima, Sui Fon from Bleach, [[http://i-e.animepaper.net/thumbnails/preview/21851/1/[animepaper.net]picture-standard-anime-ah-my-goddess-peorth-21851-mineko-preview-630a82be.jpg Peorth from Ah My Goddess]], and the girl from Final Fantasy is the trope image above.

reply: I think the phrasing needs revising a bit.

reply: I belive Ray form the original Beyblabe series would count?

reply: Hopey and Maggie from Love And Rockets have had rattails and variations thereof at different points in the series.
MarqFJA
02:15:44 PM Jul 21st 2011
edited by MarqFJA
Regarding the stated possibility of characters having both Short Hair With Tail and Hime Cut... The definition Hime Cut explicitly conflicts with that statement: "In its pristine form, the straight black hair endemic to actual, real-life Japanese people is worn long, save for perfectly level bangs trimmed just above the upper eyelids, and side locks trimmed to roughly cheek and/or shoulder level." In contrast, Short Hair With Tail emphasizes being "quite obviously a short style all around with a noticeable tail".

I.e. just having the bangs and sidelocks in Hime Cut-style does not an actual Hime Cut make.
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