Main Shocking Defeat Legacy Discussion

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07:56:10 PM Sep 10th 2016

  • Avatar: The Last Airbender had Iroh's siege.
    • Not the best example, since the siege failed but didn't even slow the Fire Nation's progress. More appropriate examples would be the conquest of Omashu and Azula's coup in Ba Sing Se during the second season: the latter was particularly significant as Ba Sing Se was the last free city in the Earth Kingdom.
    • However, considering the effect it had on the line of succession in Fire Nation's monarchy, it was an important defeat nonetheless. The city of Ba Sing Se was sieged relentlessly off and on for a hundred years, but Iroh's siege is the only notable attempt to capture Ba Sing Se due to it being a turning point in the history of the Fire Nation, and as a result, the 100 Year War. Iroh's loss in favor gave Ozai an opportunity to make a claim on the throne, which was successful, and as a result of Ozai's leadership, the Fire Nation came dangerously close to winning once and for all. Shocking Defeat Legacy is not a killing blow or major surprise attack, but instead a defeat that no one saw coming and one that has major consequences. Nobody imagined Iroh's son would be killed, nor that as a result Iroh would retreat. If it were any other soldier, Iroh would probably have pressed the attack and won. Or, at least, that's what everyone was expecting to happen. He might still have lost, but that's irrelevant. It's the perception of defeat at the hour of victory or safety that defines this trope.
      • Iroh was a much better leader than Card-Carrying Villain Ozai, and if he hadn't retired, he would've found a way to crack Ba Sing Se open anyway, either with his original siege or later (he later managed it with a much smaller army, and against an army of comet-empowered Firebenders no less). Demoralizing Iroh and pushing him away from the war and the conquering mindset was the all-important coup which led to the Fire Nation's eventual defeat. Moreover, a hypothetical Fire Lord Iroh would have encouraged massive numbers of Les Collaborateurs due to his competence, winning personality and kindness, ensuring Fire Nation dominion over the Avatar world during his lifetime at least. Instead, Ozai succeeded Azulon, but he only really cared for himself and increasing his personal power, using and abusing even his favoured daugher and his country as a whole as tools to this end and running both ragged in the process; further, with his evil antics, he put all his enemies into a very motivating "do or die" situation, as well as adding his own son and brother, considerable powers in the world especially the latter, to their ranks. Any fight against Fire Lord Iroh would have been half-hearted at best, by comparison. TL, DR: It was this trope because it replaced Iroh's solid leadership with Ozai and his Villain Ball, a major strategic defeat for the Fire Nation.
      • Assuming, of course, that Iroh had zero Character Development between the loss of his son and the start of the series, and was always that Cool Old Guy.
      • According to a flashback he was
    • Another example was the Day of Black Sun. The Water Tribes and Earth Kingdoms had united to hit the Fire Nation at exactly the time that firebenders would be unable to bend. Everything was planned out and executed perfectly, but due to some clever stalling tactics by Azula and Ozai, the Fire Nation held out and the good guys were forced to break and retreat, and the Fire Nation could prepare for Sozin's Comet unopposed.

This is natter and I don't know enough about AtLA to resolve it, so someone who does please rewrite this into a list of examples rather than a forum thread and put it back.
06:03:14 AM Jul 10th 2014
Is it too soon to add the Mineirazo (Brazil 1-7 Germany, 2014 World Cup semifinal)?
06:36:03 AM Jul 10th 2014
It seems fairly early. At least it needs some context explaining it.
07:52:12 AM Jul 10th 2014
The background has the pedigree, at least - Brazil having won the most championships (5) but none of those were in Brazil, the pain of the Maracanzo in 1950 and the desire to sweep that away, the party-like atmosphere that to this point had been on display for most of the tournament. And then there's the lurking backdrop of anger and protests over the expense and corrpution and rushed jobs (but a feeling that most were willing to bear with it if it meant Brazil won), the murmurs of not-so-good defense, the loss of Neymar and Thiago Silva during the previous quarterfinal match. Since the match took place less than 48 hours ago I guess it'll need time to play out to get a feel for the legacy, but I've already heard stories of riots after the match, of utter despondency among Brazilian fans, of an eerily quiet Copacabana Beach.
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