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gojira96
topic
04:51:48 PM Mar 12th 2014
If a fanfic features an extreme amount of this trope, can it result in the fic sliding into Hate Fic territory?
LadyPhantomhive
topic
04:21:37 PM Aug 3rd 2013
Should I remove the Homestuck example? Dirk's characterization in that fic seems to be less due to intentional demonization and more due to the fact that not a lot was known about him when that was written, which wouldn't be this trope.
Stoogebie
06:23:59 PM Oct 29th 2013
Maybe not remove it, but I'd say it could be called either a subversion or something else. I mean, at the time the fic was written, Dirk hadn't been introduced yet, but we did know about his Beta timeline counterpart Bro, who, you know, beats the hell out of Dave to "toughen him up". Given what the author knew of Bro at the time, which included nothing about Bro's (or Dirk's, since he's the AU-timeline counterpart) sexuality, the author simply applied Alternate Character Interpretation, even if it was a pretty harsh one.

Technically, it would count as Ron the Death Eater in hindsight, but yeah, we should edit the entry so it doesn't sound so mean.
HopeFox
topic
05:16:19 AM Jan 17th 2013
I think we should clarify that this trope is different from simply writing an Alternate Universe Fic. If someone writes a fic wherein the Malfoys are a heroic family of philanthropists, while the Weasleys are shunned from polite society, and hence poor, because they sided with Grindlewald, then that's an alternate universe fic, not a Ron the Death Eater or Draco in Leather Pants. Those tropes are about deliberately or cluelessly misinterpreting a character to fit the author's preferences, without paying any respect to actual canonical characterization.
LadyPhantomhive
04:56:39 PM Aug 11th 2013
An AU could still count if no reason is given for the change, though. Or if the character is completely unrecognizable from their canon self. Like, a hero being pushed over the Despair Event Horizon and becoming a Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds probably wouldn't count, but a good character becoming a Complete Monster would.
Smasher
topic
07:50:29 PM Apr 19th 2012
Why is the Naruto Page a Red Link?
Smasher
topic
08:03:41 PM Jan 4th 2012
edited by Smasher
Why are there so few examples on the page, yet it's a "tropeoflegend"?
fraxas
04:19:04 PM Feb 21st 2012
Because a bunch of the examples got purged because they didn't have a specific example associated with them.

Which I'm a little concerned about, because getting too specific is just asking to start a flame war. It's not like this article is already skirting being a really obvious target for anyone who cares enough.
Geveric
topic
06:14:46 PM Oct 1st 2011
Not sure if this should be done or not, but is it safe to remove Sasuke's entry under Anime/Naruto since he's pretty much not a hero anymore? I'm asking here because the last thing I want to cause is a flame war over updating an entry after a character's allegiance has shifted.
SamMax
08:57:11 AM Nov 21st 2011
edited by SamMax
You could keep it for Pre-Face-Heel Turn Sasuke, but remove it for Post-Face-Heel Turn Sasuke. I suggest you wait for more answers from other Tropers before going ahead with removing anything, though. We don't want too many questions asked about its removal, after all.
OneInTwenty
topic
12:47:15 AM Apr 29th 2011
Would the original occurrence of this trope be the book "Paradise Lost," making this older than x?
Komodin
topic
08:06:03 AM Apr 10th 2011
Am I the only person here who thinks the page could stand to have a cleanup? I mean, the trope itself is valid, but the examples are pretty dang whiny.
ManwiththePlan
01:12:43 PM Aug 10th 2011
My main problem is that I think it needs to be moved into seperate pages rather than seperate folders; it's gotten too big.
Komodin
topic
08:06:24 AM Apr 9th 2011
edited by Komodin
Removed this:

This can extend beyond Fanfic, especially in cases where fans are Running the Asylum. Also, some series and efforts are really just asking for this, especially when they portray Evil Versus Evil, Black and Gray Morality, Gray and Gray Morality, or have heavy cases of Protagonist-Centered Morality without the appropriate lampshade-hanging that the protagonist (or at least the series) knows he's acting less than heroically

Until some form of agreement is reached, let's keep this off the page.

If you ask me, this bit is just too pointlessly judgmental.
KSonik
03:14:01 PM Apr 9th 2011
edited by KSonik
Not to mention that section is trying to defend this trope, which is the last thing we need.
Jerrik
topic
05:46:45 PM Apr 2nd 2011
Moving this here:

  • Meredith, the Knight-Commander of the Templars in Kirkwall, is often bashed by some of the more rabid mage fans. This troper's interpretation of her was that she was the only sane woman in a city of insane mages, and that she was doing what she had to in order to keep her city safe. While that does not give her an excuse all of her actions, the Meredith-bashers often fail to understand that Meredith is a nuanced character beyond her dislike of mages; her dislike of them comes from the fact that her sister was a mage, her parents hid the sister from the Templars, and then the sister became an Abomination and killed several people—including everyone in Meredith's family—which is a valid justification for her actions concerning them. While some of her actions did more harm than good, she is not the Complete Monster that some mage fans will paint her as.
  • Any non-mage Hawke in Dragon Age 2 tends to get bashed by fans; mage Hawke is often treated as canon in many works of fanfiction and fanart. The mage fans go up in arms when there is a warrior or rogue Hawke portrayed, and insist that a mage Hawke is more connected to the story. While it is true that Bethany is an apostate mage and that the Hawkes are related to the Amell family, the fact is that in terms of the story, warrior, rogue, and mage Hawke generally end up playing the same or similar roles, and the rabid mage fans tend to latch onto mage Hawke.

Ron the Death Eater is when you "shoehorn a canon hero into being a villain — and not just any villain, but an evil bastard". Neither of the examples fit this. To start with, Meredith isn't a hero. She's the closest thing the game has to a Big Bad. The Templars under her command abuse the mages they are suppose to be watching. She orders all the mages executed for a crime that she knows they didn't commit, starting a war, while the real criminal is standing five feet away. Then she turns on all of her followers as well. Portraying her as a villain sounds entirely accurate.

The second example just isn't an example at all. Like, before, the entire idea behind Ron the Death Eater is changing a hero into a villain. This is just saying that some people prefer a mage Hawke, because they think a mage fits the story better. It doesn't mention morality at all. They don't like the other versions of the character, fine, but their dislike doesn't automatically make it this trope.
thenutty1
06:29:44 PM Apr 2nd 2011
The people who will write mage Hawke tend to bash everyone who can join that isn't a mage, in addition to seeming to support Anders burning down the Chantry. While that isn't everyone who writes mage Hawke, several mage fans will bash warrior and rogue Hawke and state that they and other characters must be evil because they are not mages.

As for Meredith, she is made out to be a worse person than canon in much of the fanfiction written about Dragon Age II. I tend to defend her because of this; while I know she is a villain, she is a villain that is always made out to be worse than she is in mage-based fanfiction or even fanfiction that has Anders as a shining paragon who did the right thing in destroying Kirkwall's Chantry. By "worse person than canon," I mean that people in my corner of the fandom will eagerly portray Meredith as a hateful and obsessive lunatic who loathes mages for no reason and will do anything to keep the "poor, innocent widdle mages who never did anything wrong" under the "nasty-wasty oppressive thumb of the Chantry." I know she's a villain, and would rather see her portrayed as a BELIEVABLE villain than a two-dimensional caricature of herself.

Is there a trope where a complex and nuanced villain is reduced to a two-dimensional caricature and loses much of the canon characterization that makes him or her interesting? The only reason I kept putting Meredith under "Ron The Death Eater" is because I have no idea where she would go, and thought "Ron The Death Eater" was for general character bashing due to not reading closely enough.
Jerrik
07:33:21 PM Apr 2nd 2011
edited by Jerrik
All right, if people are claiming that any Hawke that isn't a mage has to be evil, then that is an example of Ron the Death Eater (and one of the most bizarre things I've ever heard). Just add that they are portraying warrior/rogue Hawke as evil, and that example works fine.

As for Meredith, I don't know exactly which trope that would fall under. Character Derailment, Flanderization, or Canon Defilement, maybe. I just don't think a villain should be added to this page unless there's a seriously good reason to do so.
thenutty1
07:50:39 AM Apr 3rd 2011
Thank you. Sorry about adding Meredith to this trope page; perhaps there should be a trope page for complex villains that are reduced to two-dimensional caricatures in fanfic and have all of their worse traits exaggerated to the point where anyone who sees this character would say that they were a complete monster. It happens often enough in fanfiction that there probably should be a trope; I've seen it happen to villains such as Voldemort, Darth Vader, and Sauron in fanfiction.

I'm going to make a page entitled "Darth Vader The Eldritch Abomination," which discusses a version of the "Ron The Death Eater" trope as applied to complex villains. I don't know if that's a good idea or not, but think there should be a trope for this phenomenon of turning interesting villains into monsters with none of their compelling characterization.
KahranZero42
04:10:07 PM Nov 26th 2011
I thought that was a good idea, and it's a shame that it was deleted. But apparently most tropers are morons who can only see things in black and white, and that's why they deleted it.
KSonik
10:46:37 AM Nov 27th 2011
Yeah, about the whole "seeing things in black and white"... not true for most tropers.
Kahran042
03:40:21 PM Aug 8th 2012
Then why do this page and drcnlthrpnts exist? Because they seem to be encouraging, or at least supporting, a very black-and-white world view.
DoktorvonEurotrash
topic
07:06:56 AM Mar 30th 2011
While I agree that Denethor's portrayal as an evil Smug Snake in fanfic is due to his portrayal in Peter Jackson's film adaptation, I'm fairly sure the same doesn't go for Boromir. If anything, the films made Boromir more sympathetic and layered than he was in the book.
Night
topic
06:00:59 AM Feb 24th 2011
I'm probably going to catch hell for this, but I'm nuking portions of Gendo example expansion. No, he's not a child molester or a rapist in the canon.

But if he thought it was necessary for the scenario, Gendo would most likely do such things in an instant. What makes him a monster is that he will do ANYTHING he believes necessary for his ends. If he thinks beating up children or sexually assaulting women will further his cause, he will do it.
DoctorNemesis
topic
06:54:12 PM Feb 21st 2011
"Kirk's stepfather from the Star Trek reboot movie. Granted, Stepdaddy's brief appearance in the movie consists of screaming bloody murder at a young car-stealing James Kirk, so it's not like they're portrayed as having a great relationship. But in fanfiction, Stepdad is popularly portrayed as a crazed, violent child-molesting sociopath so that victimized!Kirk can find solace with his love interest, usually Spock or Bones.
  • To be fair, in the deleted scenes he was portrayed as about to sell something that wasn't his, and Word of Actor says he was abusive, which is the spot where fandom launches itself into molestation territory."

Does this really count here? If the example is of a character shown to be a bastard being twisted into an even bigger bastard, that's more Flanderization isn't it? Happy to be overruled, but it seems a bit out of place.
miru
topic
11:29:20 AM Feb 15th 2011
My SATAM example:

Robotnik was always the villain, but in Sonic Satam, he was a Complete Monster!
MrDeath
11:35:51 AM Feb 15th 2011
This trope is about fan reactions and fanfic, not how a character is portrayed in two different instances of the same franchise.
99.0.3.212
topic
04:00:47 PM Aug 20th 2010
(Touhou section) "...but portraying Reimu as a psychotic sadist or Flandre as an unstoppable murder machine is taking it a bit far..." I thought Flandre WAS an unstoppable murder machine but simply wasn't aware of it.
MightyKombat
12:31:42 AM Aug 21st 2010
Considering these same fans exaggerate Cirno's foolishness into being an outright lobotomized retard, I wouldn't be surprised.
MrDeath
topic
03:17:32 PM Apr 7th 2010
edited by Medicus
Okay, sure, it's the Trope Namer, but do we really need a whole section on Harry Potter delving into such excruciating detail? Can't we just cut the whole thing and put an entry at the top of Literature saying, "Harry Potter is the Trope Namer. Let's just say it happens a lot."?

Edit: Hell with it, I pulled it. Original stuff is here:

    Harry Potter 
  • The Trope Namer, Ron Weasley. Since Draco in Leather Pants is often a result of Draco/Hermione shippers, Ron is turned ragingly evil and joins the Death Eaters to oppose the now-good Draco. There are various arguments as to why a Face-Heel Turn on Ron's part is plausible (and of course counter arguments to all of them), with some being more cogent than others. Rowling herself has admitted there were parallels between Ron and Peter Pettigrew. What the fanfic authors usually get wrong is that they have Ron joining Voldemort for revenge or other petty reasons.
    • The biggest problem with the Ron/Peter Pettigrew parallels? Is that while Ron could theoretically make a Face-Heel Turn, he ultimately doesn't. This, by the way, is a recurring minor theme in the Potterverse - the difference between good and evil is the choice to reject dark impulses and urges. All of the characters have weaknesses that could theoretically lead them to turn evil, including Harry and Hermione. The reason this trope page exists is because of the Double Standard propagated by certain segments of the Fan Dumb: Harry, Hermione, Draco and Snape's weaknesses make them "human" and "complex", while Ron's equally human weaknesses are treated as proof that he's teetering on the edge of becoming more evil than Voldemort, Umbridge, the Dementors and Adolf Hitler put together.
    • The Grangerverse, a group of fans who believe that Hermione Granger is the true hero of the books (making Harry Potter himself something they call a "frontkick", meaning he's a Sidekick even though his name is on the cover) do this as a matter of course, because their favorite character is far too good for Ron Weasley. Usually, Ron ends up being a semi-literate attempted rapist thug whose best features are his lack of comprehension and his atrocious table manners.
    • In fact, just about any time Draco gets a Heel-Face Turn, whether he gets with Hermione or not, Ron will be the Idiot of the Week who rants and raves about Draco being "the enemy". Granted that Ron is canonically the most hotheaded and reflexively anti-Slytherin of the Gryffindor Trio, you can still overdo it, and many fanfic authors do.
    • "Did you know [Ron] tried to rape last year?" Presented entirely matter of fact and never referenced again. (Link NSFW.)
    • Dark Secrets presents an example of literal Ron the Death Eater, though it's for the sake of the Draco/Mary Sue ship rather than Draco/Hermione. Also not work safe.
    • Subverted in Secret of Slytherin, in which Ron is the only one of the Trio to fully accept Draco's genuine Heel-Face Turn:
      Harry: (to Ron) I mean, most of the time, it's one of the things I like best about you, that things are so... simple for you. But Malfoy's been raised for this, trained for it. He told me once that a murder is just taking control of someone in a final sort of way, like it was nothing. I knew he'd be a Death Eater then, a murderer. I should've listened to my instincts.
      Hermione: Oh, Harry. We all could have guessed it, but we didn't want to believe it of him...
      Ron: You two sure do turn on a knut, don't you?
    • Also subverted in the first chapter of What Would Slytherin Harry Do?, where it looks like Ron has joined Umbridge's inquisition until Harry reveals near the end of the chapter that he was actually a Double Agent.
  • Ginny Weasley gets portrayed as a shrewish whore a lot. Sometimes it's ship-related and sometimes the author just doesn't like her. Harry/Hermione fics in particular almost invariably cast her as an evil, deceitful bitch trying to steal Harry. Since the same pairing tends to make Ron evil, as noted above, these fics often vilify the whole Weasley family.
    • And the proof that Ginny haters have of her being a "slore" is that she dated three boys (not at the same time, and the last one ended up being her husband) within two school years. Whereas Hermione is a paragon of purity — no, she would never date anyone just to get attention. Viktor and Cormac? Who are they?
      • Harry Potter and the Marriage Contracts is perhaps the archetypical example of Ginny Weasley as the Village Bicycle. Ron also gets the standard sexist Jerk Ass treatment re: Hermione, even though Harry is paired with someone else.
        Molly: Ginny, you've got to calm down. Minerva has caught you four times with different boys.
        Ginny: That just goes to show that she's not as informed as she thinks. She missed five others, Mum. Look, with everything I'm doing for you, you can cut me some slack. That pathetic half blood upstairs must be a eunuch. I haven't managed to get a bit of action out of him.
    • The Weasleys in general are prone to this sort of treatment. In Alternate Universe Fics in which the Hat put Harry in Slytherin, Draco will usually be put in leather pants and the Weasleys will suddenly become the biggest assholes in the world. Often, it is Ron who gets the worst of it with the rest of his family acting little to no different (especially the twins), though there have been instances where all of them will look upon and treat Harry with disdain just because he's not a Gryffindor.
  • In general, whether or not Ron will immediately become a complete psychopath is determined solely by what house Harry is sorted into, or as noted further above if Hermione is with anyone else. That is, anything but Gryffindor (mostly Slytherin, but he's still usually a huge Jerk Ass if Harry is in one of the other two houses) or Hermione being in love with anybody besides him = It's All About Me, Ax-Crazy Ron. In the latter case, he will more than likely want to murder her rather than let anyone else have her.
    When Ron Weasley was sorted Harry looked up. Ron gave him a look of deep hate and Harry knew that his short-lived friendship was over. - Harry in Slytherin'', Chapter 1
    • In the same story mentioned above, Ron assaults Hermione at their first flying lesson, and in his second year nearly kills her with a lethal spell. He is expelled from Hogwarts for this, but ends up being accepted as a student at Durmstrang (which is often referred to in fanfic as the dark, evil school, despite Viktor Krum being shown in two books to not be part of the stereotype). Chance of him later becoming a literal example of this trope: 100%. Hermione herself also murders Draco Malfoy, and completely gets away with it (with absolutely no remorse from her, Harry or anyone) because Dumbledore doesn't bother to check her wand because "she was such a sweet girl".
  • It's not just the Slytherin!Harry fics, or even the Draco fics. There is an entire subgenre of fanfic where Harry's "chest monster" turns out to be because psycho stalker Ginny is dosing him with love potion. Often they also throw in that Ginny got the potion from her mother, who is secretly an ambitious shrew hoping to enrich herself by having her daughter marry Harry and then inherit all his money if/when Harry dies fighting Voldemort. Things like Ron having been hired by Dumbledore to spy on and manipulate Harry are very frequent in such fics as well. Oddly, even in the worst fics of this example Arthur Weasley and the older Weasley brothers (especially the twins) still remain honest, well-meaning people (except Percy, but he's an asshole in the canon, so it's not like he's any different). It's just Molly and her two youngest that get their characterizations done over.
  • It's especially interesting when Ron gets this, but Ginny does not. Cue their relationship going straight to what would be Cain and Abel levels if the author hadn't seemingly forgotten that they are brother and sister. Sometimes she goes so far as to not even care if he dies, which, of course, has the intended effect of making her look like a sociopath. Even if he did join the Death Eaters, become eviler than Voldemort and tried to ruin the author's One True Pairing, you'd think Ginny would still experience some angst over his death.
    • In one Peggy Sue fanfic, Ginny poisons all of her children and tries to do the same to Harry, to "have the Potter fortune and fame" all to herself. Once in the past, Harry prevents Ginny from ever existing by secretly sterilizing Molly Weasley after Ron is born (who is actually not evil here, for once). Because Ginny is apparently pure evil from birth and unredeemable.
      The Deathly Hallows Epilogue was truly unsatisfying. Here's the rest of the story that begins about two years after the DH Epilogue. Not for Ginny enthusiasts. Character Deaths. Time Travel. Avenging!Harry. - Author's Note, Time to Fix the Mistakes, Chapter 1
    • There is also a HPCC fic (pre - OotP) where Ginny goes evil when Harry and Cho hook up - The remains of Tom's personality resurface.
    • A very large portion of Slash Fic with Harry in the main pairing has its authors vilifying Ginny in any number of the ways detailed above. This has become increasingly common in fic written post-Deathly Hallows: ironically, it's especially true in fics that try to conform to canon up to and including the epilogue. Needless to say, the things they make Ginny do to shatter the obvious happiness Harry feels at the time of the epilogue are often downright heinous.
      • What's particularly odd is these fics almost always contain the canon next generation, so apparently the fanfic authors don't mind the kids; it's just the women they don't like. Unfortunate implications, indeed.
    • A rather bizarre version of all of this is done in The Girl Who Lived. The series started out with Rose and Ginny being best friends and fellow Druidesses (with behavior that invoked other...implications). On the other hand, while Ron basically fulfilled most of his uses at first, most of his good moments were eventually handed off to Hermione or Neville or Rose, leaving Ron to look like a lazy idiot who begged Rose in vain to let him copy her homework while she rolled her eyes and condescendingly told him to do it himself. The author also appeared to take care to leave Ron out of any discussions of Rose's power or knowledge or plans and tried to make his bad moments (like when he fights with rose in GOF) appear to be genuinely wounding instances which gives Rose the opportunity to strike back. The twins appeared to be on "minion" status as well, kissing her hand when they met her, Percy was outright hated, and the Wesley parents were hardly mentioned, with Rose stating at one point that she had five parental figures "if [she] could count Mrs. Wesley". After rewriting Order of the Phoenix however, Ginny appeared to lose favor with the author and by extension Rose and was replaced more or less with Luna. In the brief amount of time she is shown, Ginny is painted as a shrew who picks on Fleur wrongly and is yelled at by Rose for it (Mrs. Wesley gets the same treatment).
    • Which makes sense, since Half Blood Prince was also when it became apparent that Ginny and Harry would hook up and the author was a confirmed Harmonian (Harry/Hermione shipper). The author also wrote on his profile on one website that the Ron/Hermione relationship made no sense because they argued, which would explain the Ron abuse.
  • Stories in which Harry is framed for a crime he didn't commit and sentenced to the Chateau d'If Azkaban for life tend to have this happen to just about all of the characters except usually Snape, Neville, Luna and a random Weasley or two the Weasley Twins and (almost never Ron, and sometimes at least one of the older brothers who are barely mentioned in the series immediately becomes Harry's new best friend). Common murder victims include Neville, Hagrid, Ginny, and the Dursleys. Those who were supposedly his closest friends and trusted adults will suddenly denounce him as being evil on par or worse than Voldemort (if not joined with him), exaggerate or outright lie about his past misdeeds (often in the Wizengamot), assault or torture him (sometimes by illegal curses or means that should get them thrown into Azkaban), and destroy/break/burn all of his prized possessions, especially the photo album with pictures of his parents inside. Rarely, they may also go to the extreme of brutally killing Hedwig right in front of Harry just to spite him. Despite all of this, they will act like nothing has happened and ask for forgiveness nearly the very moment Harry is proven without a doubt to be not guilty, almost always by Voldemort telling everyone the full details of how he set up Harry and turned everyone against him, even though there is usually still no solid evidence of Harry's innocence.
  • This also tends to occur with regards to Albus Dumbledore, whose canonical status as The Chessmaster tends to be twisted and put through a strainer darkly until he stops being Dumbledore and starts being Umbridge Voldemort with a beard. This tends to be especially prevalent in fanfiction that addresses (and usually overemphasizes) Harry's abuse at the hands of the Dursleys, in which this strange man completely unlike Dumbledore everyone is addressing as Dumbledore for some reason seems content to send Harry into the mouth of Hell (because protection from the Evil Overlord trying to kill him is best when placed over a house full of people trying to kill him) and mwa-ha-ha into his bowl of lemon drops rather than give them a stern talking to.
    • WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU DOING MOTHERFUCKERS!?!
    • Partially Kissed Hero is perhaps the single most extreme example of this, presenting Dumbledore as a megalomaniacal psychopath who secretly controls all of Wizarding Britain while hiding under the false front of a kind grandfatherly headmaster, to the point where Voldemort is an almost entirely irrelevant sideshow.
      Harry: Think, Hermione! If you wanted to rule the wizarding world, what would you want that Dumbledore doesn't already have?!?
      • Though that fic pretty clearly no longer takes itself seriously, since Harry has convinced Dumbledore that it's actually Colonel Sanders (Yes, That Colonel Sanders) behind it all.
    • The very first Harry Potter fanfic, Harry Potter and the Man of Unknown, did this to an extent. While not Obviously Evil and maintaining the pretense of his canon personality, Dumbledore was nonetheless revealed to have given Harry to the Dursleys over his mysterious uncle (the Anti-Hero protagonist) and his reason for doing so was fairly dumb.
    • Harry Potter: The Dark Wraith features said character as a horrendously evil man who steals souls to get stronger and (somehow) become immortal. Psychopath Ron (as mentioned above) also quickly emerges after being rejected by Hermione, who then immediately blames Harry for it and wants to kill him. The story wastes no time in derailing both of these characters as Complete Monsters, it does so in the first chapter alone. Sadly, it has not been updated since 2007.
  • A notable inversion appears in the fanfic, The Lie I've Lived, where Harry actually expected Dumbledore to turn out like this, but was downright surprised to find Dumbledore avert it by stopping himself after realising the extent of his actions thus far. Then he apologised.
  • On that note, the Dursleys' canonical abuse of Harry (neglect counts, folks, and even if it didn't, Petunia swung a frying pan at his head and Vernon was one accidental-magic attack from killing Harry in OotP) is Flanderized into anything from regular beatings to rape. This is usually either to make Harry more pitiable (and usually Snape's the one to rescue him) or to make Dumbledore into a mustache-twirling evil bastard.
    • Oftentimes, it's established that the Dursleys have just started treating Harry this way, which, it is frequently pointed out, makes no sense at all. Logically, if they were going to beat him, they would have done it when he was seven rather than wait until he's a teenager when he's not only physically stronger, but has wizard friends who will no doubt rescue him if he doesn't show up at Hogwarts.
    • For possibly the most extreme and idiotic example of the above, look no further than A Sad Story:
      "The family is going out to dinner" he began "You will stay here, but you will be somewhere where you can't make any trouble" He said as he grabbed Harry by the neck and dragged him to the garden Shed. He padlocked the door with at least 20 locks.
    • One such Dursleys abuse fic which started off by imitating J K Rowling's casual scene-setting prose, resulting in unintentional hilarity somewhat along these lines: "Harry was not having a good summer. Uncle Vernon had started beating him and had brutally murdered Hedwig before his eyes. He couldn't wait to get back to Hogwarts."
    • Child of Grace uses this, along with "alternate universe female Harry" and "Ron hates Harry for not being in Gryffindor", bringing us Holly Potter, a girl who swings between being a Purity Sue and a Jerk Sue and who begins the tale sitting out in the snow while the Dursleys are inside eating dinner. She is quickly established to be skinny, frightened by anyone touching her, heavily black and blue under her clothes from the beatings, and will curtsy to all strangers because the Dursleys had had such manners "all but beaten into her".
  • Similarly, Lucius Malfoy, who is already plenty evil, often turns out to be an abusive bastard who beats Draco, giving the latter a Freudian Excuse. Narcissa tends to be cast as a battered housewife in this scenario. Blame Cassandra Claire. There's an irony to this in the canon, because by the end of the series, the Malfoys' love for each other is pretty much their only canonically redeeming qualities. Earlier examples can perhaps be excused, though, as their family mechanics were not deeply explored before we see Narcissa weeping over her son and husband's fates in Half-Blood Prince.
  • James Potter is often the subject of this- while canonically he was a Jerkass as a teenager, he was also a fiercely loyal friend and (later) devoted family man who gave his life to protect his wife and son. James the Jerk Jock who is personally obnoxious and is nasty to people he doesn't like is canon- James the abusive user who has minions instead of friends and spends his days doing nothing but thinking of new ways to hurt people (in other words, Tom Riddle 2.0) is not. Also, the fact that Lily (who previously wanted nothing to do with him) married him implies that he at least somewhat grew out of it, as does some dialogue from Remus Lupin (generally the most levelheaded and reliable of the Marauders).
    • This is kind of helped by the fact that he was the childhood nemesis of Snape, a major recipient of Draco in Leather Pants treatment; as such, while it's fairly clear that James could be a cruel bully to Snape when they were growing up, this can be exaggerated to Complete Monster levels in order to make Snape more sympathetic.
  • In Dark Fic or Revenge Fic, this sometimes happens to Harry himself as well whether he joins forces with Voldemort or not, to the point where he becomes little more than a cruel blend of Voldemort, Snape and Bellatrix Lestrange, which the author expects the readers to sympathize with and root for. Apparently, having Harry becoming a psychotic, sadistic murderer on par or worse than Voldemort is what should have happened in canon post-Order of the Phoenix. Often, these stories are rife with the Manipulative Dumbledore and Abusive Dursleys examples explained above as an excuse for Harry to go to The Dark Side. Not surprisingly, one of his worst victims is usually always Ron, even if he didn't turn against Harry.
    "Diffindo." And his right arm was gone, blood spurting from the stump. Ron screamed again. Harry smiled sardonically, not even bothering to move as blood started seeping toward his feet. - Traitorous, Chapter 12
    • It was hilariously parodied in The Unwritten comics. The comics are about a son of a writer who got famous after creating a series of novels very similar to Harry Potter. The first two start with fragments of those books, and the third with a fragment of Frankenstein. The first page of the fourth issue shows Harry's counterpart slaughtering Ron's and Hermione's counterparts in a really terrible way, only to have it turn out on the next page that it's a Dark Fic.
    • Oedipus Flower asks what Harry would be like without a fragment of Voldemort's soul inside of him. He ends up having sex with his sister and his mother, willingly, both separately at the same time. He murders his father and his brother as well, but takes the time out to mind-rape some poor girl into having sex with James several times as well. I'm not sure on the details, I was too fucking freaked out to understand it all. In short, Harry, without Voldemort's soul, is EVEN WORSE.
  • My Immortal has some very atypical examples of this. For example, Snape Snap and Lupin Loopin, who hardly ever meet this due to being two of the most popular characters in the fandom, are turned into a troublesome duo despite not being on great terms in the canon. Oh, and they're also both pervy pedophiles who in general resemble the canon characters in name only and sometimes not even then.
    • And of course, Tara does this to Dumbledore too - after finding out that Voldemort Volfemort has Draco 'bondage', Dumbledore refuses to help because he "never liked him anyway".
      • But it's justified, because Dumblydore is trying to be all goffik, with a black bread and all! Fridge Logic dictated that, but think about it.
      • Even though he "cried wisely" when he thought that Draco committed suicide.
      • Again, this is atypical for Harry Potter fanfiction. Although Dumbledore is often Death Eatered, as noted above it's usually by turning him into a Manipulative Bastard. My Immortal goes the opposite route, turning him into a capricious, senile moron (it's even noted he has Alzheimer's at one point). Come to think of it, Dumbledore's portrayal in My Immortal is actually rather similar to the Potter Puppet Pals version of him except that in My Immortal he's inexplicably regarded as a villain.
    • Oddly, despite having nearly every cliche you'll find in bad Harry Potter Mary Sue fic, it avoids doing this to the two most popular targets, since both Ron and Ginny are apparently friends with the Mary Sue. (Although in Ginny's case, you might have missed the fact that she was even IN the fic, since her name is only mentioned twice and spelled as "Jenny" the first time.)
  • In most fanfic where Harry has a sibling, and is not or mistaken not to be the Boy Who Lived, James and Lily Potter end up being examples of this trope to the point where the Dursleys look like saints. They belittle, abuse and/or ignore him while heaping praise upon Harry's brother or sister, who is usually also a huge Jerk Ass that flaunts his or her status at every opportunity. Often, the three of them despise Harry for the mere fact that he exists, and more so if he befriends the wrong people (Snape, the Malfoys, or any Slytherin in general). Ron is usually portrayed as little more than a Gryffindor equivalent of Malfoy who often hates and mocks Harry for no reason at all. And heaven forbid if Harry ends up sorted into any house besides Gryffindor.
    "I can not believe that you were put in Huffelpuff! You have disgraced your family and their fine Gryffindor heritage. We would have even preferred Ravenclaw over this. You will not be coming home for the Christmas holiday, that is your punishment." Mr. & Mrs. Potter - The Chronicles of Merlin: The Return, Chapter 1
  • Face it, "Wrong Boy Who Lived" stories are pretty much a hodgepodge of every single example above and then some. Dumbledore is at best a Well-Intentioned Extremist who chooses the wrong child because he thinks the scar on him or her is something Voldemort would be more likely to mark someone as his sworn enemy with, even though Voldemort was just going there to kill all the Potters outright. Sometimes, even if Voldemort doesn't attack them, Harry's brother or sister is still called "The Boy/Girl Who Lived" even though this makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
  • Snape has a large fan following, but there's still a vicious group of haters out there doing everything in their power to make him look like a bigger asshole than he already is, including degrading his love for Lily and his requests for Voldemort to spare her as a desire to keep her as a sex slave. There's even a fic that has him raping female students and then erasing their memories of the incident. Often in 'Super Powered Harry' fics, Snape will attempt to use legilimency or even outright attack Harry or one of his friends. Harry will then use his ultra amazing superpowers to defeat and utterly humiliate Snape in front of everyone. Snape is usually revealed to still be a Death Eater and then either gets killed horribly or goes to Azkaban for life. It's more often than not the former.
  • And just to round out the entire cast, Lily Potter has earned a small but rabid Hatedom for daring to choose James over Snape. It's not Ron the Death Eater to disagree with her choice or her actions, but the fic and essays portraying her as an evil, stuck-up, abusive, shallow demon spawn because she didn't love Snape back (even though he at one point called her "mudblood," the wizarding equivalent of the N word) definitely is. Many of these fans don't stop to consider that this might have an indirect Ron the Death Eater effect on Snape as well, because if Lily is as horrible as they say she is, what does it say about Snape that he liked her so much? The true Wall Banger is when people argue that she has no concept of love or selflessness, even though her very first act in the book is to sacrifice her life for Harry's.
    • Surprise surprise, the yaoi fandom has it out for Lily too... she must be evil to marry James and take him away from the Marauder orgies, after all.
  • The level of Remus Lupin hatred coming from Snape rabid fans is becoming scarier and scarier. Apparently, he was an horrible bully as well as completely not trustworthy, a bad father who will pass his lycantrophy so he shouldn't have reproduced, an ungrateful bastard who kept making Snape suffer and/or an evil pervert who *raped* poor Sevvie-kins, thus he's a pedophile too.
  • M. Night Shyamalan apparently believes this too.

Superior
05:36:16 AM Jun 30th 2010
Restored. It was not Conversation in the Main Page, the majority of the entries were individual examples from named, and even cited fanfiction, showing different aspects of the trope.

There Is no Such Thing as Notability, if people want to list a billion different obscure fanfictions, they are allowed to do so as long as they fit the trope.
MrDeath
12:42:45 PM Jul 2nd 2010
Highlighting it to delete, I had to hit Page Down more than 15 times. It's too damn long. No other series has its own section, and no series really needs it. If you need to cite different aspects, sum it up in a way that the section isn't longer than the whole rest of the page combined.
Superior
04:18:43 AM Jul 3rd 2010
edited by Superior
This is why we have folders. If you don't want to see Harry Potter examples, then don't click on it.

The whole HP folder is a convinience for people like you, technically those examples have all right to be posted in Literature.

There Is no Such Thing as Notability is one of our main directives. All works are equally notable, "if it fits the trope description, then it can be put in. All it requires is someone to put it in there."

Your action doesn't make more sense, than, for example removing the whole Anime section, and saying that " It happens a lot in Anime fandoms, but I don't care about individual examples, so let's just say that it happens a lot"

If someone put it up there, and it is a correct example, we need it.
MrDeath
08:25:15 AM Jul 5th 2010
edited by MrDeath
"There Is no Such Thing as Notability" doesn't mean "go into excruciating detail for one series." And it's not that "someone" put it up there, it's that it probably began as an example similar to the one I put up, and then everyone who had ever read or written three or more sentence of Fan Fic decided that what they read/wrote had to be noted too. It's honestly ridiculous for one body of work to get its own section that is as big as the whole rest of the page.

There is nothing special about Harry Potter fanfic, and there's even less special about Harry Potter shipping. Every single other series entry consists of little more than the bullet point I put up in replacement of that ungodly mess of a folder.

I'd bet half the other single bullet point examples could be expanded into their own folders as well. Should we do that? Surely, only that would be fair.
Iaculus
11:52:23 AM Jul 5th 2010
Hey, why not? We could even hard-split the page if necessary.

I mean, don't we have an entire Brother-Sister Incest page for Code Geass?
Superior
12:24:57 PM Jul 5th 2010
This is a Fanfiction trope, because the fanfictions are the examples. This means, that we don't have one, excruciatingly long "Harry Potter example", but several individual works that use the trope.

My Immortal uses this trope. Child of Grace also uses this trope. Harry Potter And The Man Of Unknown also uses it. They are all existing (therefore notable) works, that have a reasonable four or five lines of description each, and the fact that they are all based on Harry Potter, is just like a genre for them.

The Harry Potter fanfic community is far the largest, while some of the other mentioned fandoms barely have a few dozen fanfictions, and one or two that fits the trope. If people would want to add examples from other fandoms, they could, but they didn't and it is not your job to make sure that they are equally represented. As I already said, this is barely different from cutting a whole genre or medium because you don't care about the individual examples that it has.
MrDeath
01:01:49 PM Jul 5th 2010
Hey, if you want to keep this up and effectively argue with one of the admins, be my guest. He's the one who deleted it the previous time.
FastEddie
moderator
01:20:51 PM Jul 5th 2010
edited by FastEddie
I pulled it because of the natter it draws. If somebody wants to clean out the natter and make it clear that these are examples from fanfiction (calling the folder 'Fan Fiction' would help), I would have no objections to it going back in.

Another thing that would help is to have the examples in the form of ...

  • Work Title: Blah, Blah, Blah
  • Another Work Title: Blather, Blather, Blather

... making it crystal clear these are about individual works.
Superior
02:12:02 PM Jul 5th 2010
edited by Superior
Ok, tomorrow I will remove the natter out of it.

A fanfiction folder is not needed, it is already fanfiction trope. Theoretically it can also happen in canon with multiple writers writing the same continuities, but I didn't find such an example, every current example is frm fanfiction.

If you want to delete all examples that are about fanfiction, but not naming a particular title, you would need to cut about 50% of the Harry Potter folder, and 100% of the rest of the page.

Edit: Done. Now it is categorized with main indents standing for common subgenres of the fanfiction community, and subindents for the specific example.

  • [Character name] is a frequent subject to this trope. Common portrayals include [this], [this], and [that] plot variations.
    • Specific example
    • specific example
    • subverted specific example
  • [Another Character] is a frequent subject to this trope. Common portrayals include [this], [this], and [that] plot variations.
    • Specific example
    • specific example
tenderlumpling
10:02:09 PM Oct 21st 2010
Uh, wait... We have a Brother-Sister Incest page for one anime series, but we can't possibly have a folder for the Trope Namer series on this page? Why not?
Medicus
12:12:23 AM Oct 27th 2010
edited by Medicus
Seems like a good idea to me.

Edit: It greatly depresses me that I have heard of (and read parts of) most of those stories.
Ramenth
10:45:51 AM Oct 29th 2010
I'm in agreement with the various people supporting the page. Make it a subpage if it's that disruptive to have it on the main page behind a folder you don't have to click on, which I can understand as far as editing goes. That said, cutting the Trope Namer and a large list of examples seems to be directly against the stated purpose of the Wiki.

If there's a huge example tree, doesn't that simply prove that it's an active trope? If we're going to start cutting those, there are plenty of other active pages that would probably need significant trimming under that interpretation.
Medicus
05:53:02 PM Oct 29th 2010
I've gone ahead and created the page, and will be doing some editing of both pages shortly.

I expect it to survive for, oh, say, a week?
Ana
topic
05:24:48 AM Apr 3rd 2010
Removed: * Marche gets hit with this by the bucketload. Much of the fandom of the game is convinced that Marche is a horrible Omnicidal Maniac who can't stand to see his friends and brother get better out of the changes made to the world than him. All that stuff about the world being an illusion, or that the world is Mewt's way of trying to escape from reality? Oh that's all just misdirection to keep you from realizing that you're playing as an evil, evil little man! Who cares if those zombies you killed were those bullies from the real world, or that you have no clue what happened to the kids' parents? Also, ignore the explicit statements by the game that as long as the fake Ivalice exists, everyone in the real world is trapped there and subjected to the whims of four kids.

Reason: Wrong trope. This is for all intents and purposes Alternate Character Interpretation, not a deliberate misinterpretation. See the countless cleanup-wars for that trope, the Tactics trope page and the forum. We don't need another instance of that here.
back to Main/RontheDeathEater

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