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AkiraxAtsukifan
topic
08:40:43 PM Apr 24th 2014
Was hoping that in the Nippon Ichi section that Witch and the Hundred Knight be added specifically the Wham Episode of Totopepe. Could the page be unlocked for this example?
SeptimusHeap
09:22:49 AM Apr 25th 2014
You ought to ask here for an edit.
LeonEvelake
topic
08:39:35 PM Mar 13th 2014
Problem with the page. Anybody else read this page and think some of its entrie come off as being argumentative or trying discredit the idea the rape is a special kind of evil. Is this not a problem? This Page is describing a trope as it exists in fiction, its not here for people to try to argue their personal views on. I know this was touched on above, but as the page is the issue is still present. Ant as such does not present the trope well at all.

Also the intro says

" Many stories and Crapsack Worlds have Complete Monsters who don't commit rape, even though everything about their character indicates they could, would, or should"

Should is a pretty odd assumption for any character that has not committed any sexual crimes. I think this page needs to be looked over by someone with experience and a nice neutral view of the trope.

AkiraxAtsukifan
08:40:03 PM Apr 24th 2014
edited by 67.183.6.144
Has anyone been looking at this page lately?
RobinPack
topic
12:30:52 AM Aug 21st 2013
Shouldn't Kick-ass 2 be on these page? Just think of it: bad guys naturally slaughter pre-school children, a dog, and a dozen of cops. They decapitate an old man and place his dog's head on his shoulders. And all these stuff is depicted right on the pages. Then Motherfucker is going to rape Kick-ass's girlfriend, and the scene fades out. Millar doesn't hesitate to show kids shot in their faces, but the rape is such a bad thing that it's offscreen. As it fades back in, a minion says they have gone too far with these one. Think of it, that's a supervillain minion who was OK with kids'n'dogs killing.

I think Kickass 2 is a quintessential example of these trope, both in- and out-universe.
WillBGood
topic
09:14:56 PM Apr 15th 2013
edited by 69.172.221.2
[redacted]

Zeke
topic
05:04:20 AM Mar 10th 2013
Note to those who can edit this page: When you get a sec, the phrase is "woe betide", not "woe betides".
Telcontar
moderator
05:52:28 AM Mar 10th 2013
Please post edit requests here — the mods are less likely to see discussion pages.
Zeke
11:01:22 PM Mar 12th 2013
Thanks, I'll remember that.
Linas
topic
02:00:57 AM Mar 8th 2013
edited by Linas
Considering an example from Dexter, I'd say there's a huge difference between "rape is a special kind of evil" and "abducting and keeping girls locked for months, constantly torturing and raping them in every way imaginable, then killing them, stashing into a can and dumping in the swamp is a special kind of evil". The latter is definitely a special kind of evil. And that's what happened in Dexter. One can assume Dexter stumbled upon quite a few rapists while working with Police, not to mention his extracurricular activities, and he didn't seek to murder everyone who ever raped anybody. Different things.
Telcontar
moderator
05:47:42 AM Mar 8th 2013
It's been removed.
twitch
topic
09:22:01 PM Dec 27th 2012
edited by twitch
In the recent 10 year Firefly reunion special "Browncoats Unite!", They revealed a secret about Inara Serra, the courtesan's big needle in the box. What it does is when she injects it into herself, and anyone who forces themselves on her drops dead. Apparently there was a proposed plot line (actually very early on in the show) that Inara was going to be abducted by Reavers. Mal goes through his trademarked Big Damn Hero routine to save her, and when he gets on the Reaver ship and finally finds her, She's huddled in the corner with AN ENTIRE ROOM of dead Reavers.

As a nice little meta example, the producers felt that this would've taken the show in too dark a place too fast.
ClatoLawa
topic
04:20:11 AM Sep 17th 2012
Since the page is locked, could someone please add this extract from John Grisham's A Time to Kill, during Jake Brigance's closing argument:

"He talked about rape for a while, and explained how rape is much worse than murder. With murder, the victim is gone, and not forced to deal with what happened to her. The family must deal with it, but not the victim. But rape is much worse. The victim has a lifetime of coping, of trying to understand, of asking questions, and, the worst part, of knowing the rapist is still alive and may someday escape or be released. Every hour of every day, the victim thinks of the rape and asks herself a thousand questions. She relives it, step by step, minute by minute, and it hurts just as bad."
Telcontar
moderator
05:38:38 AM Sep 17th 2012
Please take edit requests to this thread
arisboch
topic
01:20:21 PM Jul 23rd 2012
Could someone with editing rights for this article please add the claim of Cyrus the virus (Con Air), that he "killed more people then cancer"?
MrDeath
02:43:07 PM Jul 23rd 2012
Why?
arisboch
09:10:50 AM Jul 24th 2012
NimmerStill
11:22:10 AM Jul 24th 2012
He also thought Steve Buschemi's character, a child killer and probably molester as well, was a "national treasure". It's not clear exactly what kind of evil the movie thinks is special.
maxwellsilver
08:46:56 PM Jul 25th 2012
Couldn't you add it?
CaptainCrawdad
topic
07:18:18 PM Nov 28th 2011
Removed:

  • Perdido Street Station is an entire plot point. Yagharek the Garuda vehemently says that he is the lowest of the low for "removing the choice of another individual" or something like that. For this crime, he had his wings brutally sawed off, and so he goes to Isaac to make Yag fly again. Despite Yag telling Isaac that he was the lowest of the low, Isaac is thrilled at the prospect of making artificial wings that operate under the user's own power (though granted, Yag was never clear on what exactly was the crime he had committed), and agreed to assist the Garuda. It's not until the end of the book where we learn that the crime Yag had done was rape his friend's betrothed, and in learning this Isaac is understandably disgusted and refused to help Yag any further.
    • This hits particularly close to home for Isaac, as The Reveal comes almost immediately after he "rescues" his lover Lin from Mr. Motley, with severe bruises indicating she was rather brutally raped in captivity. As such, Your Mileage May Vary on whether this is intended more as commentary on rape generally or as a specific reflection of Isaac's character.
    • It is actually averted in this case, as under the rather alien morality of the Garuda, rape, whilst a serious crime with a severe penalty is no worse than any other serious crime of choice theft in the first degree with disrespect. No other such crimes are listed however. Murder may be presumed to be far more serious as it removes all choices from the victim, forever. Isaac is rebuked for viewing the situation through the lens of his own morality.

I don't think this is a good example. Isaac takes the case because "choice theft" is gibberish to him, and he apparently think it was some Blue and Orange Morality issue. When he finds out that the crime was something he considers to be terrible, and has to look into the eyes of the victim, he's understably sobered. This would have worked with any serious crime. The fact that it was rape was incidental.
TiggersAreGreat
topic
07:59:23 AM Nov 25th 2011
Here's a question I would like to pose to you all about the statute of limitations on rape in Real Life...if murder has no statute of limitations, Rape Is a Special Kind of Evil and rape is considered to be far worse than murder by a number of people, then why would rape have a statute of limitations?
Iaculus
02:37:40 PM Nov 25th 2011
Not sure. However, there are pragmatic reasons for making murder the crime you'll get in the most trouble for - it discourages people from killing their victims to shut them up.
NimmerStill
10:02:32 AM Jul 3rd 2012
The main answer, because rape is not, in fact, a special kind of evil in Real Life, or at least not the most special, at least not as far as the law is concerned.
UraRenge
10:27:59 AM Apr 2nd 2014
What Nimmer Still said. However it's not simply because of legal reasons, it's also for a moralistic reason. The idea that being raped is a fate worse than death creates the implication that a person who has been raped would be better off dead. This not only is a horrible view to have of a human being, but more importantly it ignores that fact that a rape victim, while not always having the potential or right situations for it, at least has the realm of possibility of being able to move on from it and be able to keep living their life. The dead are dead, that's all there is to it. That is why there is no statute of limitations on murder (in the US anyway, in Japan you can get away with it if no one caught you after like 25 years), because no matter how horrible being raped is, those people still have a future, no matter what it is. The dead don't.
MagBas
topic
05:39:14 AM Sep 11th 2011

If i understood well, this manga NOT treats rape as a special type of evil
Severen
topic
07:09:56 PM Jul 3rd 2011
Could The Godfather count as a possible aversion? In the beginning of the film, when Don Corleone is hearing requests, the first man asks him to kill two men who raped and assaulted his daughter and got off on a suspended sentence. Vito refuses at first, saying that murder would not be just, as the man's daughter was still alive. He eventually relents, but this still raises an eyebrow.
NimmerStill
10:03:35 AM Jul 3rd 2012
Aversion and possibly a Discussed Trope.
OllyOllyOxenFrei
topic
03:24:27 AM Mar 18th 2011
Should we mention how this almost never applies if the perpetrator is female or the victim is male as mentioned on the double standards page?

Vilui
topic
04:20:11 PM Mar 7th 2011
"Tyrion's primary reason for hating his father: the fact that Twyin let his entire garrison rape Tyrion's wife Tysha, then forced Tyrion to do so as well.

  • Well.... Shea was a professional, and was paid for both the marriage and the entertainment of the garrison. Rape? Maybe, but more like a command performance. It's more complicated than simply rape. And Tyrion's daddy issues have much, much deeper roots than this. "

It's a long, long time since I read the books, but last I heard was that fans were theorising some completely different character was Tysha. I think Tyrion would have noticed if Shae was Tysha....
amazinglyenough
04:36:21 PM Nov 17th 2011
I think the editor meant Tysha, not Shae. However I'm pretty sure Tyrion knew it was rape, but it is true that this is not the only reason Tyrion has to hate his father.
38.116.203.8
topic
10:52:23 AM Feb 8th 2011
Considering the varying opinions on Dominic Deegan, would it be all right for me to add an entry on how the webcomic averted this trope by the instance of how the character Stonewater raped Melna when they were adolescents to save her life (explained a bit more under the webcomics section of Rape Is Love), and is not considered an irredeemable villian by the narrative?

It's also been quite a while since I read that part, so if someone else could help me clarify or re-examine that bit to better understand how it relates to this trope, that'd be great.
CaptainCrawdad
topic
07:08:17 PM Aug 22nd 2010
Removed this:

  • The book and movie A Clockwork Orange have almost identical plots, but are markedly different in tone. In the book, Alex is portrayed as a despicable villain, but the film adaptation turns the story into a Reactionary Fantasy with a Villain Protagonist. Although he is still a murderous thug, the filmmakers do change one of his most shocking scenes. In the movie version, Alex has consensual sex with a couple of girls his own age. In the book, the girls are eleven, and the sex is definitely not consensual.
    • Well, he still rapes the writer's wife in the film, so it would be more like "Pedophilia is a special kind of evil".
      • Nope, it's the rape issue, as while Alex is older than the two girls, he's only just 14 years of age at the time of his arrest for murder, so the pedophilia point is arguable.

The points made are off-base. Both the book and the film are reactionary fantasies with villain protagonists. The difference in tone is Kubrick's inclusion of dark comedy. Alex is a serial rapist in both versions, and this fact is never given any more weight over his various other crimes. In fact, it's the murder of the widow, not the rape of the author's wife, that actually seems to weigh heaviest against Alex. In the film, he's visibly shaken by the deed.
MoG2
08:24:29 AM Nov 18th 2011
Why is the book a reactionary fantasy?
Katsuhagi
11:09:37 PM Jan 6th 2012
Because Burgess' wife was sexually assaulted in WWII by deserters from the U.S. Army.
OOZE
topic
08:43:21 PM Jul 27th 2010
Does anyone think that this page is starting to get a sort of creepy, Unfortunate Implications feel to it?
joeyjojo
08:38:47 PM Aug 19th 2010
OOZE
07:50:24 PM Aug 22nd 2010
It seems like the page is implying that rape is perfectly harmless and thinking otherwise makes you a dinosaur.
joeyjojo
06:25:23 PM Aug 31st 2010
edited by joeyjojo
it's not than 'Rape Is Like Saying Hello' but rather the double standard it's gets. in fiction characters can do all sort of crimes such as cold blooded murder or torture and still be treated sympathetic. but when they commit rape things are treated seriously. 'cause that's really bad
kylee
06:16:45 AM Sep 1st 2011
I'm a little skeeved out, too, because rape is a special kind of evil and I'm not sure what anyone has to gain by implying it's not.
HyperCatnip
12:45:03 PM Sep 25th 2011
edited by HyperCatnip
What anyone has to gain is getting their facts straight. Rape isn't special kind of evil. Saying that raping a person is worse than maiming or murdering that person is a mistake at best.As joeyjojo said, this is double standard and that's the problem.
Drolyt
05:32:34 PM Nov 6th 2011
edited by Drolyt
Hyper Catnip

"What anyone has to gain is getting their facts straight. Rape isn't special kind of evil. Saying that raping a person is worse than maiming or murdering that person is a mistake at best.As joeyjojo said, this is double standard and that's the problem."

I'd agree with you, but there is a bit of YMMV going on here. It doesn't help that the evidence is fairly strong that personal reactions to rape differ tremendously, from people who move on with their lives almost immediately to those who are scarred for life. (Note: I would like to point out that those who move on are not necessarily "stronger" or "better adjusted", and that those who are hurt definitely deserve sympathy and help). For myself, I would much rather be raped than die or suffer a debilitating injury that decreases my quality of life, but I don't think I'm in the majority there. Some people really do view it as a fate worse than death. Regardless I don't think we should be suggesting that rape is okay, although I don't think the page does that. If anyone has any specific recommendations for improving the article that would be better than a blanket statement.

kylee

"I'm a little skeeved out, too, because rape is a special kind of evil and I'm not sure what anyone has to gain by implying it's not."

It is a matter of being objective in your decisions. When someone makes a statement like "rape is a special kind of evil" you HAVE to be critical in your assessment, since it affects such a large part of our legal system and culture. We cannot afford to make mistakes in this area, because giving into hype and hysteria can result in various negative effects, including rapists going free and innocents being thrown in jail and having their lives ruined. So yes, although it may seem like splitting hairs, we have to dig deeper into these issues, even if it may be uncomfortable, and even if it means going against the (unexamined and possibly baseless) consensus.
suspiciouscookie
02:23:58 AM Dec 5th 2011
Unfortunate Implications, on this page? Definitely. For an issue like this, there's a very fine line between pointing out that a work is...I don't know, saying rape is worse than genocide, and then going ahead and saying that rape isn't that bad. It could very easily tip the wrong way and with the large amount of examples the page has got...well.
Serpah
08:36:10 PM Dec 7th 2011
edited by Serpah
Hyper Catnip

"What anyone has to gain is getting their facts straight. Rape isn't special kind of evil. Saying that raping a person is worse than maiming or murdering that person is a mistake at best.As joeyjojo said, this is double standard and that's the problem."

Thing is, while most people would probably prefer to be raped than murdered, you can never say something like "I raped them in self-defense" (barring extreme circumstances), while saying "I killed them in self-defense" could easily be said in a wide number of cases. In that way, having a character who rapes is a much clearer indication of villainous intent than having a character who kills. After all, almost every video game hero is a mass murderer.

Anyway, the only suggestion I have is rewriting the "Having rape in a story will immediately make it Darker and Edgier" line to something like "Many writers use rape to make their series Darker and Edgier", with maybe a link to Rape as Drama smooshed in somewhere to indicate that this can fall flat.
BlueIceTea
11:01:48 PM Jan 6th 2012
As the page's creator, I just want to point out that whether or not rape is actually a special kind of evil is irrelevant. In your opinion, this trope may be Truth in Television, or it may not. Unfortunately, no one person has the authority to rule definitively on the issue. And it doesn't matter. There are lots of tropes listed on this site. Some are Truth in Television, and some aren't. Ultimately, all that matters is whether or not the trope gets used in works of fiction or not. It does, and that's why it gets a trope page.

Of course, that isn't to say that the page can't use some editing from time to time, particularly to ensure objectivity.
AlsoSprachOdin
topic
10:03:47 AM Mar 5th 2010
Also Sprach Odin: I'm not sure the Tiberium Wars example fits: The Nod military is quite vicious and use terrorist tactics, as far as I understand, but they believe in a cause, and they consider themselves soldiers rather than murderers. Do we really want to start a discussion about whether soldiers like these are to be considered evil, so that rape can be considered especially evil among them?
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