Main Order Versus Chaos Discussion

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Jman543
Topic
11:37:37 PM Dec 12th 2014
edited by 24.107.3.245
Physicist here. The description of real-life entropy does not seem to accord with current thinking. The article says that "an arrangement of molecules equally spaced out so you could make a grid out of them is more "chaotic" than a random or haphazard arrangement of molecules." This is not an accurate description of entropy. Quite the contrary. The Boltzmann definition of entropy is S = k ln W, where W is the number of microstates. At absolute zero, where substances will theoretically form a perfect crystalline configuration, i.e. "you could make a grid out of them", there is only "one" microstate (in reality more, 'cause of quantum). So entropy S=0. S does indeed grow larger as the system becomes randomly (though evenly) distributed, in accordance with intuitive concepts of order. There are actual cases in which thermodynamic entropy and intuitive concepts of disorder are opposed, but this is not the typical case. I'm thinking about editing.
SeptimusHeap
01:41:35 AM Dec 13th 2014
That seems like a very questionable reading of entropy to me as well - I've pulled it:
  • Science gives us the thermodynamic property of Entropy. Entropy is sometimes defined as the amount of disorder or chaos in a system. However, a "chaotic" system (of molecules, for instance) is hypothetically uniform. In other words, an arrangement of molecules equally spaced out so you could make a grid out of them is more "chaotic" than a random or haphazard arrangement of molecules. The idea here is that the uniform arrangement is the way the universe naturally behaves, so a random or nonuniform arrangement must have been unnatural, i.e. made that way. A system being "made that way" brings to mind "order", so the opposite is logically chaos. Needless to say, this clashes with the typical idea people have of order being the same thing as uniformity. Even in a perfect crystal, there are still vibrations. Also, it's not in a thermodynamic system, so thermodynamics do not apply. Entropy in statistical mechanics (which is to thermodynamics as GR/SR are to Newtonian dynamics) is actually the most likely configuration. It is what, outside of some external ordering force, any statistical system is likely to default to.
    • This idea can also be applied to the history of the universe: At the beginning of the universe, just after the Big Bang, there was just a chaotic, superheated, primordial soup of disorganized matter and energy, which slowly settled into the universe we know today. Trillions of years in the future, all energy in the universe will have passed away into entropy, all reactions will have ceased, and all matter will be sucked up by Black Holes, leaving behind a totally empty, static, vacuum.
Ctrooper2011
Topic
08:40:02 PM Aug 4th 2013
edited by 216.99.32.45
I can't help but consider two of the four temperaments as part of this factor.

Melancholic, being extremely perfectionistic, can easily qualify as Order. Sanguine, on the other hand, values creativity and socialization over tasks, making a good example of Chaos.

Phlegmatic & Choleric are something else entirely.
MagBas
Topic
01:16:01 PM Sep 15th 2011
  • Similarly, Sonic is very much Chaos. He's a drifter, a free spirit, and considers morality to be more important than the established order. Eggman, on the other hand, is Order. He wants to conquer the world, he forces people to obey him without question, and he wants a society based entirely upon order... his own

Actually, Eggman and Sonic conflict represents tecnology vs nature. I not knows about the other adaptations, but in the games he never represented "order" and used CHAOS Emeralds as fuel to his plans

Ctrooper2011
08:43:55 PM Aug 4th 2013
That sounds a bit more like Harmony Versus Discipline.
KSonik
Topic
09:54:03 AM Aug 1st 2010
edited by KSonik
The Simpson example still fits as this trope has nothing to do with the actual Law. Lisa may not be on the side of the law but she is on the side of order. law abiding=/= on the side of Order and being a criminal does not necessarily mean you are on the side of Chaos
MagBas
Topic
02:08:40 PM Apr 17th 2010
Mag Bas
  • Subverted in Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn. In Path of Radiance, the direct prequel, as well as much of this game, the player is led to believe that Ashera (Goddess of Order) is a typical, benevolent fantasy deity, while the Dark God (Chaos incarnate) is a sealed evil threat to the world, blamed for a global flood that nearly wiped out the world save Tellius. It's later revealed that the reason why the Dark God can't be released is not because the Dark God itself poses a threat, but rather because waking it will also awaken Ashera. Ashera herself is bent upon nothing short of the complete destruction of sentient life as part of her judgment against the two main races of Tellius, Beorc and Laguz, for their inability to stop fighting each other. The "Dark God", Yune, is the one that gives the main characters the ability to oppose her, as well as being generally friendly. In fact, the two goddesses were once one being, Ashunera, the creator of the world. Ashunera sought to stop the two races from fighting before, but lost control of her emotions, and thus caused the flood. Blaming her emotions for weakening her, she divested of her chaotic side in order to become a more perfect goddess. In the epilogue of the game, though, it is revealed the two halves were reunited 1200 years after the game's events.
Not a Subversion.
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