Main Not If They Enjoyed It Rationalization Discussion

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10:25:38 PM Apr 5th 2017
Would it be worth adding that this used to be an extremely common trope in porn (specifically written porn) or not? The publisher Blue Sun specialized in it, in fact.
06:00:05 AM Jan 19th 2017
edited by faunas
Would the admins please add the following situation when there is a rape excuse:

  • When the (in most circunstances male) rape victim has an erection. There are various causes for erections, only one of which is sexual arousal. Erection is a physiological response to external stimuli, which can also be cases like e.g. fear, various diseases such as priapism, or it can be simply spontaneous.
08:24:39 AM Jan 19th 2017
Not going to happen. First off, it's rife with grammatical errors. Secondly, general examples are frowned upon. Thirdly, it doesn't make... a lot of sense.
02:03:01 PM Jan 24th 2017
edited by faunas
Give examples of all three.

Some notes:

1) Erection=/=consent. It even links to the Double Standard: Rape, Female on Male page.

2) It's written as to be inclusive of both males and pre-transitioned female-to-male transgender people.

3) It's to be included in the general examples that come right at the top - you know, those that start with "An excuse for rape, used by a character. Used in at least three [with the new one I proposed, four] situations: [...]" -, not in the folder examples.
03:43:55 PM Jun 3rd 2016
Not sure how to add this example to the page, so I'm putting it here, maybe someone can help?

The video for Devo's song Whip It- A guy in cowboy threads tackles a cross-eyed woman, while his friends (including at least one woman) cheer him on. It looks like the guy is forcing himself on her (the cross-eyed woman) yet when he stands his 'victim' grabs his shirt and pulls him back down, as if she wants more.
03:16:41 AM Nov 15th 2015
The example from The Waste Lands seems like a case of a demon just wanting to cause pain For The Evuls, and recoiling from the thought that it's making someone happy.

As for the "rape or theft" bit in the Ask That Guy example, ironically claiming that the victim enjoyed it might be a reasonable defense for THEFT, but not for rape.
02:02:42 AM Nov 16th 2015
This looks like a question for this topic.
02:46:48 PM Jul 27th 2015
In the Alvin Maker series, Alvin's talented younger brother Calvin used his knack to change a married woman's bodily response and make her think that she wanted desperately to have sex with her. She is ashamed of it afterwards, believing that she has committed adultery, but Alvin's wife Peggy takes one look at the situation and tells the woman that it was rape.
03:00:28 AM Nov 15th 2015
That's more a case of Mind Rape (literally)
12:21:33 PM Nov 5th 2014
One example for consideration: in the film Film/Crank, the... um, "hero" is dying of a poison which is slowing his heart - he can delay the effect by keeping his heart pumping. In one scene, he's in the street with his girlfriend and the poison starts acting up. Lacking other options, he begins trying to get his girlfriend to have sex with him. Naturally, she loudly protests and even hits him more than once, until he has her on the floor and is beginning to go through with the dirty deed, at which point she starts "getting into it herself". By the second film, it's revealed that she has developed a fetish for public sex. The film seems to present the act of the rape itself as morally OK precisely because she enjoyed it. Not sure if that counts but it's on the film's page.
02:59:23 AM Nov 15th 2015
That's a thoroughly strange situation. The fact that he was clearly not in his right mind and in mortal danger would seem like a better justification than claiming she enjoyed it (even if she did, that's still rape and still deeply fucked-up). Of course it's not likely he'd be calm enough to consider possible explanations rationally anyway. I haven't seen the movie (and this only makes the premise seem more ridiculous), so I don't know the details on the relationship or the characters.
09:19:54 PM Jul 17th 2013
I do not think "The Rape of Lucreze" is a real Shakespeare play, it's not the the Complete works I own and I can't find it on The Other Wiki.
02:10:37 AM Jul 18th 2013
It's a tragic poem of his. I'll ask for it to be moved to the Literature folder.
08:45:30 AM Jun 28th 2013
edited by
The A Song of Ice and Fire example should probably be removed. That scene was revealed in short order to be a mutually-consenting rape fantasy between partners who had done this sort of thing before, not an actual rape.

Edit: Scooped. Wiki Magic at work!
11:11:37 PM Apr 29th 2013
The 'A Song of Ice and Fire' is not an example. It's implicit in the text that Asha is in a relationship with the man and that this is a bit of roleplaying.
12:53:33 AM Apr 24th 2013
edited by
Article's locked, huh? Gee, can't imagine why.

Anyway, the Wheel of Time entry isn't an example of this trope. There might be shades of Victim Falls For Rapist, since Mat much later admits some affection for Tylin (even though even at that point, their relationship was uncomfortably coercive) and is devastated when he accidentally allows the gholam to kill her, but there's nothing like "not if they enjoyed it." The closest it comes is Elayne learning what's happening, realizing that it's fucked up, but initially thinking it's karmic punishment for Mat (who she still believed was The Casanova, not just a Chivalrous Pervert). Only initially, since she comes around and orders Tylin to stop (which unfortunately doesn't take once Mat's trapped in the city).

I get the feeling the writer just hated Elayne and Nynaeve, since Mat never actually seeks help from them in the first place, the whole "forced apology" thing had nothing to do with the Tylin situation, and they (along with basically everyone else, at first) didn't realize Mat was being victimized as opposed to seducing the queen, let alone laugh at him over it.
11:00:10 AM Mar 28th 2013
There is a third L&O:SVU example that I think merits mention (the article is locked as of this writing), since it unusually involves only men, and the one exposing the rationalization is the victim.

A gang of rapists in a van abduct and rape young men from a park (IIRC they were former prisoners that were either raped or rapists in prison, if not both, and rape other men for the sensation of power they get). The cops get one of the victims, and while his face is entirely brushed he adamantly denies to have been raped. After a while he breaks down and reveals that he is most ashamed of the fact that he had an erection during the event, even though he is not homosexual (he uses other word, you know). The cops reassure him that it means nothing because it was involuntary and that he must help them catch his attackers.
03:02:58 PM Dec 31st 2012
Where does the page image come from?
01:09:58 AM Jan 1st 2013
A Fate/stay night hentai doujinshi that was removed from the wiki under the Content Policy.
09:20:21 AM Dec 7th 2013
I don't remember the doujinshi having an article or Fanfic Recommendation entry in the first place.
01:59:21 AM Nov 25th 2012
I think there should be a justifying note under the entry for Revenge of the Nerds, as there is no way that the girl in question didn't realize the man she was having sex with wasn't her boyfriend. She may not have known who he was until after the Vader mask came off, but she still knew who it wasn't.
09:16:33 PM Jul 12th 2012
edited by MicoolTNT
Isn't there a fourth situation: when it Looks Like She Is Enjoying It and the rapist uses that as an excuse, even though the victim was actually in pain/screaming from terror/whatnot?
03:25:45 PM Jul 7th 2012
"In Black Butler, episode 17, Sebastian does it on a nun named Matilda."

I've seen this mention of Sebastian raping Matilda on the page for that series as well, and it kind of bothers me because I personally don't believe this was an actual instance of rape. As in, I see nothing in this scene to imply that the sex that happened between the titular butler and the nun wasn't consensual, and it confuses me that people are assuming it wasn't.

Since this page is locked, I can't edit it, so I'll just leave a comment on it here, I suppose. And if I'm wrong, can someone please explain it to me?
03:54:50 PM Aug 31st 2013
You're not; seduction=/=rape. He did it to obtain information from her.

James Bond did the same repeatedly, and he's nowhere to be seen on the page even for Pussy Galore who was a lesbian who, it seems, made an exception for Bond.
09:01:05 PM Nov 20th 2013
After searching on the internet, general consensus is that it was not rape. Probably later when I have more time I'll see if a mod will remove the entry.
01:12:04 AM May 24th 2012
Quoting the page "This trope is about the situation where the rapist and/or outsiders" sometimes a Victim themselves might think this as well.

Often a psychological response to Rape is the victim shaming themselves for enjoying it or thinking they did.

And it could also come up in Victim Falls For Rapist
01:41:55 AM Mar 13th 2012
Should we bother pointing out that there is no way to guarantee that the victim will enjoy it, and thus someone who tries to invoke this trope ends up being a rapist even by the standards of those who agree with the thinking behind this trope. or is that to Captain Obvious and thus not worth mentioning?
02:46:11 AM Nov 15th 2015
That SHOULD be obvious, but sadly it isn't.

Besides, the tendency to inaccurately estimate sexual prowess (including one's own) is well-documented.
06:43:56 PM Aug 6th 2017
It is not at all obvious.

With situation 1, it is very much still rape, and can be even MORE traumatizing then one that did not cause an orgasm (this is mainly an issue with females). Many women themselves believe they can't possibly enjoy real rape, and when it happens to them, it really messed with them badly. For males, it's the female on male double standard instead. it's pretty well accepted that if a man is raped he will still probably orgasm.

With situation 2, sometimes the victim itself decides it wasn't rape because she did enjoy it (and consents retroactively). And sometimes the victim recognizes it is rape but still decides to try and enjoy it. This is the successful invocation of the trope, and it DOES happen sometimes, with the victim glad it happened and deciding not to press charges. But you REALLY don't want to get this one wrong. You could very easily end up with situation 1 instead, and a permanent record and a traumatized victim.

as for situation 3... ick. that's full on ongoing abuse. It also does happen, but anyone who that is done to is now seriously messed up in the head.
10:16:53 AM Jan 16th 2012
edited by HersheleOstropoler
I'm not sure why, as I see it, Cryptic Mirror is trying to remove an acknowledgement that women can rape men, and correspondingly that erection =/= enjoyment. I suspect she doesn't see it that way; I'm not making an accusation here, just explaining my perspective.
10:22:26 AM Jan 16th 2012
I know very well both male and female can commit rape, but the sentence you were adding did not enhance the trope description. The explanation already there did not imply that men were exempt from being raped, in fact quite the opposite, but what you were adding made it seem like that the trope was about men in specific rather than a trope which affected each sex equally. We aren't a social justice site to lecture our userbase on the bleedin' obvious.
08:37:25 PM Jan 17th 2012
Not all that obvious, IME, but fair point.
02:55:12 PM Jan 5th 2012
I found the distinction between physical and emotional pleasure too fuzzy for the point it was trying to make, so I rewrote that paragraph.
05:05:53 PM Jun 18th 2011
I think there may be a problem with this trope in so far as it uses an ambiguous definition of "enjoy" or else incorrectly equates "enjoy" with "orgasm".

This is really more of a quibble about the NAME of the trope than the trope itself, since it's quite possible to have an unenjoyable orgasm, and it's also quite possible to have a very enjoyable orgasm but not have enjoyed the circumstances which produced it.

This trope ISN'T really about whether or not the victim enjoyed it as far as I can tell; it's about the rapist MISINTERPRETING the victim's physical pleasure as consent and/or enjoyment, which makes the name of the trope somewhat ambiguous, IMO.
11:44:57 AM Dec 12th 2011
Ugh. Don't like the subject too much, but I imagine the victim might say something like, "Omigod! Omigod! Omigod!" or whatever, therefore leading the rapist to believe this is "enjoyment", when it mostly isn't. I think the other thing is that you may in fact be turned on by someone, but you didn't want to have sex with them because of their spouse/boyfriend/girlfriend/whatever. Just because you enjoy the act, doesn't mean that you can be held morally or legally liable for an act to which you didn't willingly consent. ~~~~
01:21:07 AM Mar 13th 2012
some people believe orgasm automatically means enjoy
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