I'd say any tropes that relate to multiple characters should stay in the main page.

Should Do You Want To Copulate be moved to Rei's section or left in the main page?

Fair enough.

Might as well leave it in the main page.

I'm not necessarily saying I believe that SEELE is an anti-Semitic caricature, but you have to acknowledge the similarities. SEELE is a council of twelve (12) old men with big noses and German-sounding names who secretly control the UN, think they're doing God's work, and have a Kabbalah-enhanced plan to bring about the end of the world. Each of those individually correlate with a variety of anti-Semitic stereotypes and/or conspiracy theories, but more specifically the all-powerful council of old men calls to mind The Protocols of the Elders of Zion (which was a bestseller in Japan) and the beliefs of Aum Shinrikyo, which is acknowledged as an influence on the mythology of Eva. (Yes, a Japanese cult somehow managed to work anti-Semitism into its belief system.)

Mmmm, alright then. You may add it back in.

Um... thank you?

I dunno, like I said on the main page, the concepts behind the Angels are so intentionally surreal that I wouldn't be surprised if this were deliberate. On the other hand, I wouldn't be entirely surprised if this were a goof, either. So, I'll give you this one.

Yeah. I like the series, but...I gotta agree with you here.

What are some specific things that need to be addressed?

I'm starting to warm to the show as well, but:

There's a lot of speculation in the opening: "Evangelion is in fact a study of..." "these films are believed by some to be..." etc.

Biased: "Evangelion is beautifully crafted..." "Some of the most technically impressive animation ever done..." etc.

And it's just kind of long. I'd alter it so a brief summary about the show and it's impact, but if I didn't discuss it here, I'd be worried someone would just alter it back the way it was.

Imma go after this line in the description:

"Some of the most technically impressive animation ever done"

^ From what I've read, it had some of the most technically impressive animation of its time. Considering the heavy use of still frames and the fact that it did, at times, fall prey to Off Model  ^*

^{episode 6 and 17}

, it really would not be accurate to call it "some of the [best] animation ever".  ^*

^{and rebuild's animation pretty much blows it out of the water anyway}

It's good animation [at times], but not the best.

Also: I agree that the description is pretty long, but...well. To compare (I cut out unimportant stuff about other film and OVAs):

• Evangelion (893)
• Fist Of The North Star (704)
• Code Geass (700)
• Ranma (697)
• Cowboy Bebop (636)
• Serial Experiments Lain (584)
• Naruto (565)
• Berserk (507)

...On the other hand, Revolutionary Girl Utena's description is just as long if not longer than Evangelion's, so. Apart from trimming away bias, I'm not sure how much of a need there is to shorten it.

The "technically impressive animation" line did need to go in light of the Off Model stuff. I don't have much of a problem with the intro as it is other than that, but if anything is going to be cut I'd say it needs to be:

• the "in one sentence" bit at the start
• the paragraph about the dysfunctions of the pilots; the way it's written, it implies that there are more pilots than what there really are. This material needs to be condensed and merged with the previous paragraph
• in the "other works" list, I think we could do without RE-TAKE and NGE: ANIMA; if anything, ANIMA's links could be moved to the Eva fan fic page and there could just be a general-purpose line about fan fics with a ping to the link at the top

To make it less cluttered, I placed the "Other Adaptations" into a folder.

...Can we get rid of the paragraph that starts with "despite the dark and gruesome ending"? It's little more than gushing. ^^;

I dunno that we need to get rid of it altogether, but it does need to be reworked.

I put one up, but I dunno if it's in the right place; move as needed.

Yeah, I don't know the "proper" location for something like that myself, so I'm not going to touch it, but ideally it should be somewhere where people who are casually editing the page won't miss it - probably as close to the top of the page as possible.

We could us the "percent sign" markup so that it won't show up on the actual page.

Mmmm...I'd prefer it to be visible on the main page, but we could also stick another one in the examples list that does use the percent signs for double emphasis.

Also, as mentioned under Your Size May Vary, Asuka's breasts vary wildly in size and proportion Depending On The Artist. Perhaps they are like puffer-fish, expanding when threatened and filled with poison.

How is Asuka a Pettanko in the first place? She's nowhere near flat, IIRC.

She wasn't, that's why I brought it up in the first place. I think the current A Cup Angst covers the issue a lot better.

One problem: I don't remember anyone of her age group (namely Rei and Hikari) looking bigger than her in this department, and IIRC, it's either Word Of God or All There In The Manual that she's a C-cup by her first appearance in episode 8, which should put her out of A Cup Angst's purview (a B-cup I could stretch it, but a C...). Plus, she doesn't look that much smaller than say Misato or Ritsuko - that is, ignoring official artworks that have no true relevance to the anime proper itself.

Maybe we should have a couple of screen-caps for comparison/verification.

To summarize my opinion:

From a character design perspective, and excluding Off Model depictions  ^*

^{Which obviously cannot be taken with any degree of seriousness or reliability.}

, Asuka and Rei have the same bust size.

Also, Asuka's not qualified for "an inversion of A-Cup Angst" for the following reasons:

1. A-Cup Angst first requires that the character in question is a Pettanko in the first place. (Which she is not)
2. An "inversion of A-Cup Angst" equates to qualifying for either Petite Pride (for Pettankos) or Buxom Is Better (for Buxom Babes). (So either way, the A-Cup Angst entry shouldn't even be there.)

Any naysayers with a solid counter-arguments, or am I free to proceed with removing the entry?

The anime is so inconsistent that it's hard to make a good judgment, but I have never seen Asuka and Rei as having the same bust size, especially if you look at Sadamoto's artwork. Also, there are these artbooks: Groundwork of Evangelion: The Movie 1 and 2 (NSFW) which were released by Gainax, and from the covers it's obvious that they aren't equal. I see what you're getting at with the argument against the A Cup Angst entry, and if there aren't any counterarguments I'd be fine with removing it.

Okay, I actually meant something along the lines of "the size difference is negligible, and may be influenced by the character designer's own subtle biases towards the characters". How long do you think I should give for the counter-arguments to come in before I make the change?

Mmmmm...no idea, really, there's not many people that regularly post here. I'd say a week at most.

Okay... Two more days from now, and then I'll remove the entry.

Removed both A Cup Angst and Asuka's part in Your Size May Vary. The latter should have some concrete proof to back it up; a couple of images to compare would be sufficient. Be aware, however, that Off Model does not count.

Well, I kind of remember that they speak about angel DNA after analysing the corpse of the the fourth angel, Shamshel. My memory is not so clear about that. They say that it is very similar to human DNA.

It seems really weird, specially when it appears that angels are beings made of another kind of matter althogether. They're stated to be made of "solid light".

So how do you code DNA into this "solid light" ?

I don't think they meant similar in the sense of "much of it is identical"; I remember them saying something along the lines of "while the actual chemistry is quite different, the structure and placement of the 'molecules' is highly analogous to human DNA".

Seems we will have to check. Also, now I wonder what is said in the original (as opposed to the translation).

What you describe about Shinji doesn't sound like an attempted Determinator to me. I'm not sure what the applicable trope should be, but it isn't Determinator.

I chose this trope because of this quote from the Determinator trope: "In shonen anime, it's comparatively rare to find a main character who isn't one of these."

I can live without the subversion part actually, as it is quite subjective. However, it is clear to me that Shinji is a deliberate aversion of the trope. Compare him to Kaneda (from Akira) who is a very straight example of the trope. Even when battling a God, armed only with a laser gun that eventually runs out, even when receiving fire from a military satellite, Kaneda never has any doubts about the fact that he is going to make it.

Shinji on the contrary, is never sure about anything and is afraid all the time. Moreover, a kid like Shinji is the exact opposite of Kaneda. Whereas Kaneda is a rebellious biker, a school dropout, who gets the women, looks cool, is a natural leader, etc. Shinji is an introspected, obedient, dorky, humble, overall gentle kid and as charismatic as a doorknob.

Really, I don't know how the writers could come up with a character like that without making it on purpose. Shinji is an aversion not only of the Determinator trope, but of most if not all the characterization tropes in Shonen until the time it came out.

It might not be as clear today, because of the impact Evangelion had, nowadays we get more and more salarymen/dork/non-bad-boys/whatever characters in Shonen, that are worked into more heroic roles (yes, I'm looking at you Roku).

Discuss again !

Edited to fix some typo and to add that: Moreover, even if it seems like a weird point to make, one should look at his characterization in Rebuild to see how characters like Roku or the kid from Xamd Lost Memories helped open the door to a revisit of Shinji.

Well, when you put it that way, he now seems more like an inversion than an aversion.

OK. Then I'll wait a while to see if anyone has anything else to say, and then add something along the lines of "Inverted by Shinji, as is whole characterization is an in inversion of most of the classical shonen hero tropes".

Moreover, I haven't checked the page yet to see if anyone has added anything along these lines: to me it seems, that there is some kind of gender reversal at play at the level of these characterization tropes when looking at Shinji and Asuka. Asuka starts as a straight exemple, then a deconstruction of the hero archetype. Whereas Shinji acts more like The Chick and inverts the trope.

Discuss moar ?

I was the one who originally removed the example, as it didn't seem to fit the trope. It still doesn't fit to me. The closest I can find is that it might be a subversion of Beware The Nice Ones— you keep expecting Shinji to try to fight back, but he never does. Until his Woobie Destroyer Of Worlds moment, that is.

Still, we're talking about the period in the middle, right? Where Asuka is getting killed and everything's going to hell, and Shinji is doing nothing, right? I know what you're getting at, and I feel the same way, but I don't think Determinator is the right trope. Subversion of Beware The Nice Ones, maybe?

I'd strike the "Other directors" line but leave the rest.

I dunno, I think it should be trimmed way more than that. I get that this is a divisive series and definitely agree that that fact should be acknowledged, but the passage in question here borders on becoming an outright rant. Again, note how much longer it is than the segment allegedly describing the show's positive qualities.

If you meant to say "Other critics", then yes, I can sort of see it working with that sentence eliminated, though the entire passage is still unmistakably written in the voice of the show's Hatedom. If it could express the polarizing nature of the series without coming off like an angry rant, I think it would be better off.

Yeah, that's what I meant. *facepalm*

I agree about the trimming- this article is very long and dense. We should get into the complicated stuff in the trope listings rather than make the description so overwrought.

In pursuance of this goal, I've enacted several major page changes. The description has been completely changed so that it's more brief and readable. Additionally, I have reformatted the trope listings to follow the still-experimental Gunnerkrigg Court model of separating tropes by category before alphabetizing them. The "Meta" and "Themes" section more-or-less cover the majority of material removed from the original description. The original page markup is still in the history for any who think my changes went too far.

I like it, it looks really good. I see some things that need tweaking...shouldn't be anything major.

EDIT: One thing that needs to be done is to somehow work Death and Rebirth and End into the description.

These are the "Unit-01 wrecks shit up" themes:

The Beast

The Beast II

I think the second one played for the Zeruel dinner.

When a Unit Goes Berserk, a track called "The Beast" plays. The variant for the Dummy Plug IIRC is called "Normal Blood".

Thanks, it was "The Beast" I was looking for. You earn one free internets.

You can if you want, but I'd put it on the character sheet instead of the main page.

Just quote the Hedgehog's Dilemma. It is, after all, one of the core themes in Eva and almost all the characters' defining trait.

I don't have a problem with the quote; it makes, IMO, a valid point about the subversive nature of both shows, and it speaks something about the entire show rather than one central theme.

I agree. I enjoy the quote, it serves as a bracer for what is to come.

But you say that as people who have seen Twin Peaks, don't you? What about all the people who haven't?

Actually, no. I knew about Twin Peaks before I saw even one episode of it (and I've only seen one episode of it). Hell, The Simpsons did a parody of Twin Peaks in the second part of "Who Shot Mr. Burns".

We make obscure anime references all the time—what's the problem with making a reference to a well known television show from the United States?

er... isn't this the wrong place to discuss this sort of thing? Although I agree with you.

I'm pretty sure that editor just made some crap up. BAHLEET IT.

FLCL was created as a way for the Gainax staff to cool off after Evangelion, and included a clear Shinji-expy in Naota. There is some connection there.

Yes, but aren't we supposed to 'compare' things that are similar in terms of plot, themes, setting, etc? The other series in that section are all Humongous Mecha shows that have either symbolism or a darker take on the Giant Robot genre(or both). FLCL should probably go under 'contrast with'. EDIT: Okay, I made the changes.

Well, to put it bluntly, you're wrong. Saying that the UN is a "planetary government" is pure supposition on your part. The fact that the organization wields so much power, that it has a force of mechas and the authority to boss around sovereign states, is exactly what DEFINES it as an NGO Superpower.

The United Nations isn't a nation. Thus, is can't be a State Sec.

A State Sec doesn't have to involve only nation-states. It needs: 1. An offical claim from an offical authority. The governing authority can come from city-states, supranational unions, galatic empires, etc. 2. Semi-autonomy, in which other branches or agencies of a government can not interfer with it, thought it still answers to the leadership. 3. Have siginifcant poltical, military, intelligence powers etc. that surpasses most paramilitary organizations.

And it's not just a supposition on my part. Not only does the series hints this, but the manga states: (From Secrects of Evangelion, Neon Genesis Evangelion Vol. 6):

"...The UN gained in the aftermath of that catastrophe a heretofore unseen level of power and influence that made it, for the first time, an agency capable—if it deemed so necessary—of action independent of the major surviving world governments."

In addition since the UN is really controlled by SEELE, it no longer fits the descirption of the real world UN. The power now lies in a top secret cabal, and are practically the rulers of the world.

And since NERV answers (ideally that is) to SEELE, who control the government, NERV is not a NGO. NERV is conected to a government organization, and is not independent from it. An NGO Superpower or any NGO shouldn't be directly controlled by governments. A degree of autonomy is required to be a NGO.

Not to mention that NERV's full name is "UN Special Agency NERV", and is referenced as a "paramilitary" force.

Honestly? This is a reason to start an Edit War? God...

Well, one could be avoided if others provided constructive input on the matter. Or are willing to act as mediators.