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Bagpiper
topic
02:43:42 PM Oct 28th 2013
This entire page reads like it was written by somebody who loathes the very concept of this trope, and is going out of their way to 'prove' that the trope name is utterly fictional.

Can we fix that, please?
liquidentropy
07:42:22 AM Jan 15th 2014
I agree. From the article: "The reality regarding fanfic writers though, is that there is a huge contingent of both male writers"

I'm sure there are many male fanfic authors, but so far as I can tell the vast majority are women (~80%). http://ffnresearch.blogspot.com/2011/03/fan-fiction-demographics-in-2010-age.html http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/fanfiction.net http://www.libraryofmoria.com/jsr/part2.html

It's cool if the research offends someone's sensibilities, but it's still the research.

Perhaps the article should reflect the reality of the trope?
TigerHunter
11:23:53 AM Jul 30th 2014
I cut a huge chunk of the description out as you suggested - specifically the many paragraphs dedicated to defending fanfiction as a medium rather than to describing the trope.
Larkmarn
11:52:50 AM Jul 30th 2014
Jesus, that was a ridiculous amount of pointless stuff. Good cut. That said, I'd leave something about Yaoi Fangirl in there since they usually overlap in fiction.
SeptimusHeap
moderator
12:15:04 PM Jul 30th 2014
Uh, yeah, that rewrite was a good one.
Laudanum
topic
08:58:29 PM Dec 18th 2012
edited by Laudanum
This entire trope needs to disappear. No, I'm serious. We already have Most Fanfic Writers Are Fans which deals incredibly well with the issue of fanfiction. This is really just a sub-trope, saying that the fans just happen to be female. Every example can be put under Most Fanfic Writers Are Fans. No problem. Everywhere except the main page for this trope it is never used for its intended purpose. This is how I've seen this trope used (all of which, observers may notice, has elements of Completely Missing the Point of this trope), in varying shapes and forms:

> Most Fanfic Writers Are Women Who Know Nothing About How Sex Or Relationships Really Work.

> Or a variation of the above, Most Fanfic Writers Immature Girls Who Know Nothing About How The Real World Works - (the implication being that all fanfic are badly written with no research)

> Most Female Writers Write Bad Fanfiction - (some people think that since Most Fanfic Writers Are Female the inverse applies... and they are never talking about good fanfiction).

> Most Fanfic Writers Are Female = Female Writers aren't as good as male writers since we all know Most Writers Are Male and female writers aren't good enough to get hired - (a lot of the time this shows up in the prejudice of the troper to this trope rather than outright insults).

> Most Fanfiction Is "Girly" And Melodramatic - (in other words, all Shipping where the Yaoi Fangirl gets the finger pointed at her)

There's more variations, but I think you get the idea. The use of "girls" in the title is also a problem but almost beside the point when you're faced with so many variations like this (i.e. there is plenty of evidence that women are prominent in fanfiction... but there is only evidence that young teenage girls are prevalent in bad Shipping fanfiction (the two get mixed up)). Basically this trope is never used for in-universe examples (or rarely) outside the main page. Instead it is used for meta commentary on fanfic and female writers (all of which is negative).

My understanding of this site is that it's essentially about celebrating writing in all different media by categorising them into tropes, analyzing the works and medium, and having fun. No matter the genre or context. What this trope does is makes people ashamed to write fanfic. Someone in a discussion told someone who felt that this trope maligned her as a teenage girl that wrote fanfiction "...then maybe the healthiest thing you can do is give up fanfiction."

Can someone please do something about this page? Even just allowing the page itself to exist but killing the pothole link to it would probably solve the problem! I just don't have the mental capacity to even attempt to help fix something this pervasive, and besides my hospital doesn't have internet connection a lot of the time, so I wouldn't be a reliable contributor if I could. So I am ''begging' someone else to do something about this?
Laudanum
10:24:19 PM May 17th 2013
Well, now I've done my best to edit this page according to a couple of weeks research into fanfic and fanfic writers in general. What I have written is what I know to be true to the best of my knowledge and if anyone can find any evidence to the contrary, please pm me, I would love to see it.

Of course, editing and improved grammar or writing would be welcome, particularly since I wrote this on rather heavy medications, including high amounts of bupenorphine, but I did my best considering.
IsaacSapphire
topic
08:57:40 PM Jan 25th 2012
"most written porn is female-oriented" does not match my experience with many many (United States) bookstores' erotica sections, much to my disappointment. Unless you're including some amount of romance as porn... and then where do you put the line, because not all romance even has implied sex scenes, forget on-screen ones.

However, I would say "most female-oriented porn is written." I suspect that this has more to do with the lower cost of entry to produce and more ready distribution channels compared to visual porn. Plus social norms of course.

As for the gender of fanfiction writers, best I can tell it depends on the intellectual property. The Devil May Cry fan-authors on fanfiction.net seem to be about half and half (other M-for-Manly games seem even more testosterone heavy), popular gen anime series like Naruto or Pokemon seem if anything a little more likely to have guys. Obviously, there aren't many male fan-authors for Twilight or CW series.
FlashGaze
topic
10:19:19 PM Dec 19th 2011
edited by FlashGaze
Is it just me, or does TV Tropes treat it as if all fanfiction writers are female? This is honestly the vibe I'm getting.
SuiCaedere
09:09:43 PM Jul 12th 2012
edited by SuiCaedere
The key word here is most and we have the same question going on in Most Writers Are Male
Stoogebie
topic
07:04:04 PM Sep 23rd 2011
edited by Stoogebie
I found this quote on Fanfiction.Net, and it sounds like a subversion of this trope:
"...not all fanfic out there is badly-written Harry Potter yaoi written by horny teenage girls. Some of it is well-written stories with an actual plot and characters who stay in character, written by horny teenage girls."
SaltyWaffles
11:23:35 AM May 5th 2012
This is, in fact, THE TRUTH. While a majority of it is stereotypical...filth(?)...a good deal of it is far, far better than the stereotype goes—yes, including the slash fics with Crack Pairings. It's actually astonishing how good some of the authors are—even the teenaged girls, who write better than many professional authors.
Tedofg
topic
07:03:48 PM Jul 24th 2011
Who said most FF writers are gals?
Stoogebie
11:33:51 AM Aug 23rd 2011
SaltyWaffles
11:21:33 AM May 5th 2012
Which means that there is no actual evidence beyond the very obvious majority being of the Romance genre. Or that this trope entry Did Not Do The Research BIG TIME.
RawPower
topic
08:14:46 AM Oct 2nd 2010
So we do away with all the Real Life examples? It makes sense, but this is a Real Life trope that sometimes gets reflected in fiction, when authros are very self-aware.
Ghilz
04:06:50 PM Oct 2nd 2010
It's not just the real life section (seriously, why do people only pick up on this one ????) We removed the original example section because 99% of the 40 or so examples had nothing to do with the trope - most entry only listed preferred shipping. That showed the trope how? It was decided in the trope repair shop to limit this to in-universe examples.
artman40
07:47:19 AM Dec 2nd 2010
But why also parodies and deconstructions? That doesn't make sense.
FreeRadical
05:43:29 PM Apr 6th 2011
Raw Power: Because this happens a lot, so to list all the examples would be close to impossible. Maybe if there was a listing for aversions to this trope, if only to prove that Gen Fics really do exist, but that's just a suggestion.
diamonddmgirl
07:25:56 AM Nov 6th 2012
Who says girls can't write Gen Fics?
LGuardinal
topic
10:05:13 AM Aug 6th 2010
edited by LGuardinal
Hey, I don't want to open up a new can of drama, but would there be many complaints if this was changed to Most Fanfic Is Romance?

I'm probably coming off as some PC jerkoff, but the title just really gets under my skin. Yes, it's true, but it still smacks of unnecessary sexism.
RawPower
08:13:43 AM Oct 2nd 2010
It's not sexist if it is factual.
appointmentwithdensity
05:34:50 PM Oct 6th 2010
"Most Fanfic Writers Are Women" or "Female" would be a good compromise, though. I've known fanfic/slash in their forties and fifties who would be surprised to learn they were "girls," and it would be a better contrast to its brother trope, "Most [TV] Writers Are Male."
Pteryx
04:06:33 PM Oct 21st 2010
edited by Pteryx
I'm quite sure it's "Most Fanfic Writers Are Girls" in order to imply not just gender, but age or at least level of maturity — you know, the real meaning of "girl". Personally, I'd find "Most Fanfic Writers Are Women" more offensive, as it would suggest that women never outgrow such things. — Pteryx
Ju
05:29:42 PM Mar 2nd 2011
edited by FreeRadical
Well fine, keep the title if you must, but it still leaves a bad taste with me. I'm a girl, and I write fanfiction, but so far none only one of them have been about romance. (Even then, the romance scene was a major source of Squick for me to write). In fact, I'm barely even interested in romance fics. Sure, I'm a "girl," but I also admit that my lack of maturity doesn't result in a crapload of lemons and yaoi fanfiction!
Galaxyspinner
02:38:18 PM May 14th 2011
As it stands it's an interesting sociological observation, one which, when compared to "Most Writers are Male", leads us to ask questions as to why these dynamics exist. All of this is lost if we pretend that the thesis is not true. If merely pointing it out makes you ashamed (it's not like the title is "Most Fanfiction Writers are Pathetic, Horny Schoolgirls with No Skill, and You're One of Them" or anything) then maybe the healthiest thing you can do is giving up fanfiction.
pittsburghmuggle
03:40:38 PM Jul 27th 2011
edited by pittsburghmuggle
I'm noticing a huge number of female writers across the board - io9.com while being a sci-fi website has very few male writers, Universe Today a space exploration blog is run by a woman. (nothing wrong with that, they are just assumed to be male-dominated fields) I'm noticing far more female names on articles in the newspaper and on news websites than male.

I don't think women are better or worse writers than men, but I'm starting to get the feeling that in general more women enjoy the process of writing than men.
gfrequency
05:59:26 AM Aug 28th 2011
The page also comes across as a bit snide, embittered and sexist. In both directions at once, somehow. Vast, cynical over-generalizations left and right. Stuff like this just leaves a bad impression:

"Other side effects include a proliferation of Mary Sues compared with Marty Stus and the heavy favoritism of guy/guy Slash Fic and Boys' Love Genre stories over girl/girl, Yuri Genre, and sometimes het (Unless of course, the series has a predominantly female cast, at which point the Yuri Fanboys will probably take over, in which case expect either background lesbians behind the fighting or smut more than romance)."

Considering that even most yuri fanfiction is written by girls (and fanfiction written by girls isn't exactly smut-free), shouldn't this be changed or just taken out completely? What exactly does "background lesbians behind the fighting" even mean, anyway?
SaltyWaffles
11:20:39 AM May 5th 2012
Actually, there are quite a lot of male fanfic writers out there, myself included. I think a lot of people tend to equate romance with feminine in this case, despite the fact that men are just as interested in romance as women.

I think "Most Fanfic Is Romance" is a much better and more accurate title, and avoids the potentially inaccurate assumption about gender, implications of sexism, potential offense to readers, and more. It would also carry the gist of the trope quite well.
Stoogebie
05:30:06 PM Aug 2nd 2012
edited by Stoogebie
Galaxyspinner: "...then maybe the healthiest thing you can do is giving up fanfiction." Why? Because I hate stereotypes? The trope title has a level of truth to it (if you come across a fanfic, good or bad, there's a good chance a girl wrote it), but the trope's meaning is what makes it snide (kind of like "Women Drivers" is about how all women are erratic drivers who shouldn't be trusted with a vehicle - so if I don't like the idea of the trope, I should stay away from cars, right?). Sturgeon's Law is very prevalent in fanfic, with many being badly written, poorly executed, and either characters being derailed from their original characterization or the whole story (along with it's protagonist) being overtaken by the resident Mary Sue. A lot of guys are offended by Most Writers Are Male (especially considering this wiki has plenty of pages dedicated to scolding common male stereotypes, but completely agrees that this trope and all it implies are true), but it doesn't mean guys should stop writing.

SaltyWaffles: I agree with you on that one; maybe it could be retitled, though one could make a complaint about how there's still good fanfic out there that is also romance (even yaoi, crack or both). Still, that alternative fits better.

Laudanum
06:58:56 PM Dec 18th 2012
I have a really good idea, let's not have people who think that fanfic is a waste of time or an unhealthy habit make comments on this trope, maybe? Because what happens is it gets derogatory very fast.

"...then maybe the healthiest thing you can do is give up fanfiction." Yes, because fanfiction is a filthy habit. There are so many things wrong with this comment I can't even....
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