Main Like Parent Like Spouse Discussion

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gojirafan430
Topic
04:03:17 AM Jul 3rd 2016
"Like Parent, Like Spouse" - Naruto.

Someone keeps changing it to be pro NH when MK was never meant to be pro NH. Even when people use the interview where Kishimoto says it's a red herring it is from an uncredited interview during the promotion of an NH movie (why would he say it's not during this time?) Even if you believe it, it's still contradicted directly by the 2015 NYCC interview where he says that Naru Saku is based on his marriage with his wife, earlier in interviews he's said the same thing about Mina Kushi.

If someone wants to change it can they atleast bring it up with me first or in a discussion because I'm tired of changing it back every other week to keep readers from getting wrong information from biased shippers.
matruz
09:20:56 AM Jul 3rd 2016
edited by matruz
Hello,

It's not an uncredited interview, it was made by Eiga.com for the promotion of Naruto The Last. Here's the link: http://eiga.com/movie/79681/interview/

だからこそ、ナルトとサクラがくっつくかのようにミスリードさせるために、あえてサクラとナルトの母親であるクシナの動きを重ねるかのようなシーンを描いたりもしたんです "Naruto being close to Sakura was a deliberate mislead, that was the entire point of the scenes of Sakura being compared to Kushina, for example."

I agree with you that it's a stretch that Naru Hina is a parallel of Mina Kushi. That's why I am not putting it on the trope.

I've read the New York Comic Con interview (link so that other people can judge by themselves: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/interview/2015-10-14/masashi-kishimoto-at-new-york-comic-con/.94186 ) and at most I can gather is that the interviewer suggests that Kishimoto's wife is similar to Sakura personality-wise, not that the entire relationship is the basis for Naru Saku; And no, even if Naru Saku relationship was directly based on Kishi's and his wife it would still not contradict the Red Herring claim (it would even give more strength to it, if anything). Not to mention that it would be completely irrelevant as an example of this trope for the simple reason that Naruto ended up marrying Hinata, not Sakura.

The Tales of Gutsy Ninja example doesn't belong here on the trope in the context of Minato/Kushina parallels, since it's a completely different and separate story (it's not even an Alternate Universe) with also separate characters (even different parents) we are talking about here, and it's not even written by the author, only illustrated at most. However, if you do want to add it as an example, you'll need to prove that at least one of Naruto Musasabi's parents (which are definitely not Minato and Kushina) are similar to Tsuyu.

I have not seen the same claim about the Mina Kushi pairing being similar to the author and his wife's, can you provide the source? (not that it would matter much for this particular topic, I'm just curious)
gojirafan430
09:15:20 PM Jul 31st 2016
edited by gojirafan430
Actually no it wouldn't. That's not what a red herring is "something designed to divert an opponent's attention from the central issue". His mother's final dying request for him one of the main goals in his life, this isn't a distraction this is a major plot point. It would be like saying "Batman doesn't want to fight justice because of his dead parents that was just a red herring". Even more so with him saying that he never thought about NH and that he had Naruto get together with her because she needed to accomplish something...same guy who also said that he stuck Sakura with Sasuke last minute because there was no one else. Kind of also that he was heavily involved with Road to Ninja and wasn't involved with The Last. On top of that, he said this near The Last's release which is a Hinata movie....wouldn't make any sense for him to say it wasn't a red herring when he's promoting a rival shipping movie. Especially since it's directly contradicted.

The Kushina=Kishi's wife was made during the Road to Ninja interview. Let me know if you can't find it and i'll post a link

The NYCC does still work in this case because the interview asked if his marriage was like Sasu Saku or Naru Hina which he said neither.

Also Tsuyu in the novel is described as a flat-chested pink haired girl who has a crush on Rengen...pretty obvious it wasn't Hinata also. Kishi had full control over that as well, he wrote it the same time as The Blood Prison novel.....which was also NS

Kind of a side not the Like Parent, Like Spouse was used for Mario as well.

It's just pretty odd taking the Mina Kushi=Naru Saku parallel seriously while A) it's during promotion of a rival shipping at pretty much the worst time to have these interviews B) It was basically Naruto's own mother's dying wish and Minato gave NS his blessing and vanished thinking the pairing would happen. C) Hinata has no connection with any of Naruto's bonds or even thought about his dream (she didn't have any connection with Iruka, Konohamaru, Tsunade, or Jiraiya never cared about Naruto's bond with Sasuke which was the main point in the series) D) The trope where the parents meet character's love interest which I'm pretty sure is on this website. Minato never interacted with Hinata (never even shared a panel onscreen), The movie and fillers...it was pretty much always Sakura and not Hinata E) He confirms Hinata is not at all like his wife.

You can't exactly tell me that him saying it's a red herring isn't a last minute excuse, especially since Naruto's main goals (becoming hokage, saving Sasuke and making Sakura happy) where pretty much given to us many times here.

One more thing not sure if this would help or not but supposedly there's a radio interview from Japan from several years ago where Kishi says that the Team 7 dyanmic was based on his childhood in baseball. He had a crush on a girl who at the time who was apparently wasn't a very nice guy, later when he went to high school he ran into the girl again who he started dating and eventually married, haven't really looked for this but fi you're able to do research and find it hope I helped with that part.

Main point is that, the red herring statement is literally contradicted by him directly in other interviews (not just the story itself he was involved in). It's like when Zack Snyder used hyperbole to make a joke about how intense his movies were and said that Batman would get prison raped in one of his movies. Obviously that wouldn't happen for multiple reasons (realistically or for product) nor did it happen.
matruz
09:22:49 AM Aug 2nd 2016
edited by matruz
"The Kushina=Kishi's wife was made during the Road to Ninja interview. Let me know if you can't find it and i'll post a link "

Please do.

Now, first: None of your arguments support why the Tales of Gusty Ninja example belongs in this trope.

Tsuyu is described in the original Japanese text as flat-chested only, the pink hair was a translation error, actually I see more parallels from the Tale of Gusty Ninja on Jiraiya than Naruto (which makes sense since the story is supposedly written by him): Tsuyu (flat-chested medic nin, like Tsunade), Renge (rival turned evil, with a slithery animal motif, like Orochimaru). The story also ends with Naruto and Tsuyu defeating Renge, breaking the parallel with the main series there too. The connection with this trope is non-existent.

Incidentally, you say that Blood Prison like Tales was written by Kishimoto too? Wrong again, in fact they both have the same author, Akira Higashiyama. "Blood Prison" is not canon either.

Now, with that out the way:

The simplest definition of a Red Herring for storytelling purposes is "A clue that leads in the wrong direction" (this was taken from this very wiki), your definition from The Other Wiki is more fit for logical fallacies (in fact, here's the other definition from the same Wikipedia page you quoted: "In fiction and non-fiction a red herring may be intentionally used by the writer to plant a false clue that leads readers or audiences towards a false conclusion"), your Batman example is confounding the whole definition of it and has nothing to do with the topic. Now, with that in mind, it's pretty straight forward: Sakura was set up as the obvious candidate for Naruto's final love interest based on the Shonen genre conventions, their closeness as team members, and Ship Tease moments, because of this their shippers fully expected them to become a couple; But Naruto ended up marrying Hinata, the author comes out and explicitly says that it's all according to his plan and that he deliberately planted those clues to mislead. Yup, this is a textbook definition of a red herring. The parental comparisons with Kushina were the icing of the cake and Naruto/Sakura shippers fell for it hook, line and sinker.

For the record: The name of the trope of the parents meeting the love interest is Meet the In-Laws, but for Naruto it would actually be a subversion of it, if anything.

The truth as it's presented by the canon is that Sakura never stopped loving Sasuke, Naruto recognized this and wished her happiness with him, Naruto admitted to his father that not everything was going as her mother wished (explicitly referring to her advice on women), his feelings towards Sakura eventually faded and were confirmed of being a case of Loving a Shadow.

So no, actually I have no reasons to doubt that Kishimoto is telling the truth about his red herring claim. Your arguments for denying it boil down to "Kishimoto is lying! He always intended NaruSaku but he (decided/was forced by executives) to change it last minute!" And the only "proof" you have is out-of-context statements from the author (Kishimoto did intend Naruto pairing with Hinata, he didn't intend to write the actual story of it in the manga which is the reason why The Last was made), outright falsehoods (Kishimoto was involved in both Road to Ninja and The Last, the difference is that in RtN he was involved with the Konoha 11 Alternate Universe designs and basic story outline, which by itself has no romance in it as the Ship Tease of it was inserted by Studio Pierrot's Yuka Miyata, while the main plot point of The Last is love which was outlined by Kishimoto himself, oh, and The Last is canon while Road to Ninja is not), baffling statements and non-sequiturs (Kishimoto supposedly saying that Sasuke/Sakura came last minute before the release for The Last, even if it's true what does this have to do with anything?), quote twisting (Kishimoto saying that his marriage is not like the canon couples, the interviewer suggest Sakura could be similar to his wife, you go "OMG! NaruSaku = Kishi's marriage = red herring is false", yeah big leap of logic here pal), questions that are really easy to answer (Why did Kishimoto admit the red herring until the very end at release of "The Last"? Could it just be because it deals with Naruto and Hinata falling in love so he needs now to come clear with it?)

"Kind of a side not the Like Parent, Like Spouse was used for Mario as well."

What does this even mean?

It's ironic that you accuse myself and other editors of this wiki of being "biased shippers", when yourself have been repeating old dis-proven Naruto/Sakura shippers' arguments, taking what you see with your Shipping Goggles as fact, and twisting Word of God statements into supporting and validating your ship.

If despite everything, you still choose not to believe Kishimoto, feel free to continue doing it by all means, but it will always be a matter of personal opinion that's not backed by hard facts nor reflects what the rest of the fandom think. So please, don't come and try to push your opinions as fact to those who do acknowledge the canon and what the author himself explicitly says.

Finally, I suggest you read the excellent analysis from this wiki of the Shipping Rollercoaster that this series was, it's unbiased and it covers all your points, here you go.

And one last thing: I'm truly sorry your ship was sunk, I wish you better luck with your future shipping choices. :)
gojirafan430
04:29:25 PM Sep 21st 2016
edited by gojirafan430
1. It's not a matter of shipping actually if anything it seems like you're the one getting a little heated here. 2. It's not a red herring though it's a plot point that he tried to turn into a red herring. He even says in the NYCC interview (that's on anime news network) that Sakura is based on his wife. 3. The Last movie pamphlet he handed out he said that NH was never his intention. http://imgur.com/nwWzDUg 4. Kishimoto personally oversaw both TOAGN and Blood Prison.... 5. You're taking his word of god at a time where he was promoting an NH film. Ofcourse he was going to say it was a red herring despite the fact that A) He said in 2009 that Sakura is the main heroine not Hinata B) There was nothing but parallels between NS and MK in all 3 mediums (manga, movie and even anime fillers) Hinata was never mentioned by them once. 6. Try to look at this from a logical perpsective here Me: "It is confirmed NS and MK are parallels" You: "Kishi said it was a red herring" Me: "He said this during a promotion for an NH movie that retcons the entire premise of the story to make sense and has this statement directly contradicted several times before"

Are you also under the impression that every chunnin Naruto character is faster than the speed of light (Mach 889,000) because he said Haku was lightspeed?

Kishimoto has been wrong before, he has contradicted himself before. Hell with this one is the most contradicted most directly in the NYCC interview on ANN. http://imgur.com/a/L7Uqo I appreciate the suggestions...not so much the attempted clever back-handed comment you tried to throw in. If you could do a bit more research or atleast find someone who knows what they're talking about to speak on your behalf maybe that would be better. From what it looks you're coming across as kind of a biased shipping fan trying to deterrent an actual trope that happened with a contradicted statement by someone to promote it in the movie (which he didn't even want to take part in despite his statement in 2012 about enjoying writing romance).

It's kind of hard not to see you as biased when you're not giving an actual argument here. "MK is not an NS parallel it is an NH parallel despite word from Minato that it is NS parallel" there was no connection between Kushina or Hinata or Hinata and Minato like you are trying to make...or the fact that you're saying it's a red herring, you're saying NH was planned from the beginning despite the lack of development and the fact that they needed an entire movie to try and explain why it should make sense while also retconning alot of things from the actual manga.

'What does this even mean"

You do know Kishi wrote a manga named Mario right? I could not have been more direct....you cannot be telling me this flew over your head while at the same time trying to be the one acting condescending. Would you like to talk like adults now?
matruz
08:41:37 PM Sep 21st 2016
edited by matruz
Sorry, I apologize if I got carried away :).

However, so far you've failed to explain in objective terms how the Red Herring claim is contradicted (your arguments require a very liberal interpretation of the author's statements plus a heavy dose of Shipping Goggles for the original work and Alternative Character Interpretation), and you are also just repeating yourself in your arguments and I do not wish do the same.

So first I'll address the issue of the trope's example and why your edit doesn't belong:

You have to understand that on this wiki there are tropes that subject to personal opinion, they are called "Your Mileage May Vary", Like Parent, Like Spouse is pretty clear cut and an author's statement has sources for verification, so they are not YMMV. On the other hand, your interpretation of the work, of the author's statements, of the characters' motivations, and to dismiss parts of a work that are canon because you dislike them, are this, and as such they do not belong in the trope's page as an example nor are valid arguments against the inclusion of the author's explanation in the trope's entry. In summary: The entry, as it is, is neutral, since it's just stating how the trope happened, was ultimately subverted and the author's explanation of it. The arguments that "directly contradict" the Red Herring claim are actually based in indirect "evidence" that is opinion-based, debatable at best, and outright wrong at worst. And to claim "but in this other story, these Expy characters do get married" is to shoehorn the trope since there's no connection with it by virtue of being a different story with different characters with different backgrounds.

Kishimoto has personally overseen all Naruto related works, he has to, he's the author and has to approve everything, but that doesn't mean he has the same level of involvement in all, nor that all works are in the canon continuity nor are an indicator of what will happen in the main story.

"Are you also under the impression that every chunnin Naruto character is faster than the speed of light (Mach 889,000) because he said Haku was lightspeed?"

That depends, if he was serious then yes, all chuunin ninjas indeed move Faster Than Light! :)

"You do know Kishi wrote a manga named Mario right?"

No I didn't, and yes, you could've been more direct.

Now, the quote where Kishimoto says that "NH was never his intention", has been taken so much so out of context, here's the actual text from that flyer:

青年期に入った少し経った頃から「ナルトはヒナタとくっつく」と決まっていました。でも別に二人の恋愛話に僕はあまり思い入れがなくて(笑)、そういう話を描くつもりはなかったんです。 "I decided that Naruto would be together with Hinata(this bold text is conveniently omitted by upset militant Naruto/Sakura shippers) . However, not in particular, I didnít contemplate much over the love story between the two of them. Since for that sort of story, I did not intend to describe". To use that quote to claim that the end pairing was not his intention is dishonest at best.

Why he didn't intend to describe Naruto and Hinata's romance in the manga? Could be for many reasons: Naruto was known for No Hugging, No Kissing and romance was never its focus (there's actually really very, very little romance on-screen), so maybe he didn't want to break that; officially he said because he was embarrassed by writing romance, can you provide the source for the 2012 interview where he says the contrary?

Suffice to say, even if Sakura was the heroine that doesn't mean she had to end with the protagonist, there's the trope Did Not Get the Girl, it happens many times, at any rate, it's his story, you may not like it and call it bad writing but that's only a matter of opinion.

"Try to look at this from a logical perpsective here Me: "It is confirmed NS and MK are parallels" You: "Kishi said it was a red herring" Me: "He said this during a promotion for an NH movie that retcons the entire premise of the story to make sense and has this statement directly contradicted several times before"

Well, to be honest, your statement that "it retcons the entire premise of the story" is not a universal opinion and it sounds more like "it changes what I made the story about", you are entitled to you opinion, just like I said before, don't try to push your Fanon into the people who do respect the canon material, also I already answered your other point.

You claim that this is not about shipping, yet in your previous comments you bash Hinata calling her weak, you make it all about the parental similarities with your obviously favourite pairing, and you basically whine about why Naruto and Sakura didn't get together in the end and how this is bad writing. So really, who's being biased here? I do have a bias... towards the canon and objective verifiable statements made by that author that line with the former.

I do not wish to engage into Ship-to-Ship Combat anymore since you're just repeating yourself and we would never finish; So, If you have no better arguments about your edit in the trope page (other than the ones you've already made), there's nothing more to discuss. It stays at it is.
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http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/remarks.php?trope=Main.LikeParentLikeSpouse