Main Light Feminine And Dark Feminine Discussion

Collapse/Expand Topics

11:14:53 AM Mar 16th 2016
Does anyone think that this applies?

  • There's also Princess Celestia and Princess Luna, who being the avatars of the sun and moon respectively, embody this trope quite well.
05:44:40 AM Jun 18th 2017
06:05:01 AM Mar 10th 2018
edited by VVK
No. Celestia may look more angelic while Luna is an example of Dark Is Not Evil, but that's about it. Celestia is a self-confident The High Queen, not innocent. ("Experienced and morally good" is not "innocent".) Luna is the more na´ve one, but not particularly sweet. ("Endearingly clumsy while acting in an overbearing manner" is not "sweet".) Both are functionally asexual. So they don't have a lot of the traits, and what little they have are evenly divided both ways.

There should be a "subtrope" of Square Peground Trope that's about when examples are added based on the trope name, not the definition.
04:15:48 PM Aug 5th 2015
Does anyone think this is an example?

[[Professional Wrestling]]
  • 9th LLF tag team champions "La Chica Celestial" Angelica, adorned in bright colors with flowers and religious symbolism, who follows lucha libre tradition and mask lacking "La Guerrera Sensual" Amazona, clad in black mix martial arts type gear.

07:55:09 PM Aug 16th 2015
edited by IndirectActiveTransport
Well, it's been a week without a reply. I could be more direct...

The 9th LLF tag team champions consisted of the traditionally geared, masked "La Chica Celestial" Angelica and the and the suggestive, unmasked "La Guerrera Sensual" Amazona.

...or more long winded.

The ninth LLF tag team champions "La Chica Celestial" Angelica and "La Guerrera Sensual" Amazona. They're both warriors, being a pareja\tag team but Angelica doesn't resort to squeezing heads or throats with her thighs, to say nothing of Amazona's cabezazo, which is basically a spread leg headbutt to the crotch. Visually, Angelica wears a mask in lucha libre tradition and her gear is adorned with religious symbols to invoke her namesake and Red Baron. Amazona shows her face for all to see and usually wears black mixed martial arts gear when she isn't in a body suit she neglected to zip all the way up.

Still not convinced?
01:17:41 PM Jul 12th 2015
These were added recently but they don't fit. The person who added them disagrees.

  • In Go! Princess Pretty Cure, pairings like this are inevitable due to the princess theme and its particularly heavy emphasis on femininity:
    • Cure Flora (a Pink Heroine) and Princess Twilight (who believes herself to be the only true princess and considers the former a parvenu);
    • Minami (an ace student and ballerina who represents grace) and Kirara (a business-minded model who represents beauty); and
    • Towa (the new kid in Noble Academy and a rookie model) and Kirara (a veteran in both fields who is often business-minded).
02:20:54 PM Jul 12th 2015
Personally, I thought Light Feminine and Dark Feminine simply required a light-and-dark contrast, but apparently there's more to it than that, which makes me suspect the title lied to me with its simplicity.
01:21:58 PM Jun 11th 2015
edited by VVK
(sigh) So much detail...

Okay, so I'd added this:
  • In My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic, the two most feminine characters out of the six main female characters and group of best friends are Fluttershy and Rarity. Fluttershy (light) is sweet, very timid, way too nice, and nurturing. Given the show's nature, Rarity (dark) can't actually be devilish or too sexual — but she's vain and much more assertive than Fluttershy, and is the only one of the six ponies who does not act as if she is totally asexual and aromantic. She's perfectly ready to flirt to lightly manipulate others.

Which lexicon changed to this:

  • In the episode "Green Isn't Your Color" of My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic we start off by learning that Fluttershy and Rarity spend time together at the spa every week. Rarity talks Fluttershy into modeling for her as a way to further Rarity's fashion career because nopony is going to have Fluttershy's elegance and poise. Fluttershy reluctantly agrees at Rarity's insistence even after Fluttershy isn't going to be modeling Rarity's designs. Over time Fluttershy becomes more uncomfortable with the attention but stays with it because she doesn't want to let Rarity down while Rarity becomes more jealous so much that she wants Fluttershy to fail and by the end they tell each other how they were feeling and strengthen their friendship.

With this reasoning: "There's no reason to call them the two most feminine characters as if Pinkie Pie isn't very feminine.The example needs to say what the duo's relationship is and don't tell how the examples doesn't apply as in, "Given the show's nature, Rarity (dark) can't actually be devilish or too sexual..." "

So, let's see.
  • "There's no reason to call them the two most feminine characters as if Pinkie Pie isn't very feminine."
    • I don't exactly feel so, but it's arguable about Pinkie Pie, so I'll grant this point. (To illustrate my point of view, though: do you think Cheese Sandwich is very feminine? If not, aside from squeaky voice, what's the difference?)
  • "The example needs to say what the duo's relationship is"
    • Which is done in "out of the six main female characters and group of best friends" (and to a lesser extent by pointing out they're the feminine ones of the bunch).
  • "and don't tell how the examples doesn't apply as in, "Given the show's nature, Rarity (dark) can't actually be devilish or too sexual...""
    • It needs to be said to explain how the trope applies anyway; that's why I wrote this followed by an explanation of how Rarity is close to those features anyway, relatively speaking. Maybe this needs to be spelled out more, or maybe I should have just written something like "is as close as can be".

Now, for the current edit: Their whole personalities are an example of this trope. This episode doesn't contain all of it, and as it's written, the example says kind of irrelevant things.

Rarity actually has that sexuality thing going, in a limited kids' show kind of way. That should be mentioned. Fluttershy is generally nurturing, hence fitting or approximating the love aspect. Without these, with the example as it is, I don't think it would even fit the trope.

I know I should PM lexicon to notify them about this discussion so that we can actually have a discussion, but I'll leave that for later when I have the time and energy to get into it. I just wanted to write all this down already.
09:15:37 PM Jun 11th 2015
Thank you for bringing it to discussion since we're going to need another option. The most important thing is that the Light Feminine and Dark Feminine characters act as foils so they are playing the traits off each other, not just Rarity being the most flirty of the group and Fluttershy being the most nurturing.
10:24:57 PM Nov 18th 2014
The Panty and Stocking example is wrong. While Panty is blonde and wears more color and Stocking is a gothic lolita, Panty is more vampy than the childish Stocking. Panty is lustful and more aggressive while panty prefers candies over boys.
08:56:29 PM Feb 23rd 2014

Removed from the article — it had spoiler-tagging for Puella Magi Madoka Magica (and it violated Handling Spoilers, btw).

  • Puella Magi Madoka Magica:
    • Homura Akemi embodies both sides. She starts as "Light" as she's a shy, clumsy and kind Meganekko, then switches to Dark as she reinvents herself as a Broken Bird Dark Magical Girl.
    • For Madoka, it's Mami (Light) vs. Homura (Dark). For Mami, it's Madoka (Light) vs. Kyouko (Dark). For Yuma, it's Mami (Light) vs. Kyouko (Dark).

The first example seems like shoe-horning. It's a trope for two characters, not just one character who has two sides or a split personality.

The second bullet has Example Indentation all over the place and it's confusing to people who don't watch the show. Are they a trio of characters? If yes, then it's shoe-horning. Are there three relationship contrasts? What are the women/girls relationships, anyway? Plus they are all Zero Context Examples.
12:19:36 PM Nov 17th 2011
I feel like we should be making the distinction that the Light/Dark Feminine are intended to contrast with one another—that is, they are obvious foils for one another. Merely having a light feminine type and a dark feminine type together in a canon means little if there are all kinds of female archetypes in that canon. Hence, the Sailor Moon example, and others, bother me because there are other female archetypes in the work and the two represented there aren't intended to form a contrast. If there's no deliberate contrast, we just have a Femme Fatale and a Purity Sue who happen to occupy a canon together.

For example, compare Red Oni, Blue Oni: There we list that a Red Oni is more passionate and a Blue Oni is more introverted, but we imply that the trope is useless if the two characters aren't playing these traits off one another.

Does anyone want to take the definition to the repair shop? I'm not experienced enough to even pretend to do it right!
09:18:26 PM Dec 1st 2011
There's a Trope Talk thread here about some of the issues. Post there. I think it needs to go to TRS as well personally (as the masculine version already has).
02:17:37 PM Nov 4th 2011
edited by atheywa
I like this trope, basically a character who's wholesome verses one who's promiscuous. My question is if there is one character who is sexually reserved but otherwise sassy and one who easy to get to have sex with but sweet, is their sexuality what counts, being reserved/light and easy/dark? Also I don't think being "meek and timid" is enough to count for "light" unless she's glad she's wholesome and wants to stay that way.
07:35:08 PM Dec 2nd 2011
edited by Stoogebie
My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic has this trope, with Fluttershy (sweet, painfully shy moe with a Cuteness Proximity) and Rarity (more outgoing fashionista and Badass Damsel). Neither gives any bearing to sexual availability (and thank God - I mean, it's a kid's show!...about ponies!). So no, this trope isn't light=reserved and dark=easy. I honestly don't know what happened to the original page article, but someone changed it.
09:50:03 PM Jan 21st 2012
So what's the difference between this and Betty and Veronica? Light Masculine and Dark Masculine has been changed to Noble Male, Roguish Male which explains it much better. Is that what this is?
08:57:44 PM Nov 3rd 2011
Terrible page image, am not familiar with the work so it tells me nothing about the trope.
09:04:15 PM Nov 3rd 2011
Perhaps the "Sugar & Spice" analogy will work better. Or the Batman Forever personifications:

09:04:20 PM Nov 3rd 2011
Well, you can start an Image Pickn' thread for it. Also, I agree it shows nothing about the trope.
Collapse/Expand Topics