Discussion Main / LawfulEvil

Linking to a past Trope Repair Shop thread that dealt with this page: Confusing Description, started by neoYTPism on Oct 23rd 2010 at 8:53:23 PM

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

How the hell is Stepford Smiler a Lawful Evil trope?

It is I, the narrator, categorising addict and writer of books you haven't read.

• Lucius Henious VII on Jimmy Two-Shoes runs Miseryville with an iron fist, and he actively goes against anyone who doesn't conform to his rules.

Miseryville was never really shown to have any rules beyond "whatever Lucius says goes". Lucius was more of a Chaotic Evil character with Lawful Neutral underlings.

I'm a Troper!!!

Removed the following:

• Mortal Kombat
  • Shao Kahn is the tyrannical ruler of a parallel dimension, bent on conquering Earth. Thing is, in the MK universe, the Elder Gods have established rules for waging war on other dimensions, which Shao Kahn adheres to unquestioningly. The closest he's ever come to working outside the system was using a loophole in these rules to gain a foothold on Earth in MK3.
    • Shao Kahn only obeys out of pure pragmatism- namely, the Elder Gods will destroy him if he tries to actually break the rules. In Mortal Kombat 9, he actually does this anyway once he's given the impression that the Elder's won't act- they do, but their attack seems impotent, and he laughs it off and assumes that they were weaker than he thought all along. Onaga, the previous ruler of Outworld, was full-on Lawful Evil as the realm was orderly under his (tyrannical) rule, but Kahn is Chaotic Evil, ruling Outworld as a Blood Knight and The Caligula, pitting his minions against each other to remain in power despite the result being inefficiency, and generally not giving a crap about laws beyond "what Shao Kahn feels like".
  • Hotaru. He's cynically militant in that believes order, rules, law, and control is the only way to make sure society is peaceful and functional, and has no regard for the battle between good and evil, just as long as he suppresses chaos and stops people breaking the rules. He comes from Seido, or Orderrealm, as part of the Sedian guard that very much share his philosophy that freedom leads to anarchy, and anarchy leads to suffering. He doesn't care how order is carried out, just that it is. For example, he opposes the long running evil of Shao Kahn, because Shao Kahn achieves his plans of total realm merging through invasions and wars that Hotaru finds chaotic. However he pledges allegiance to the still diabolical evil Dragon King, Onaga, who threatens to merge all the realms into one under his wrath using a different method, combining the special kamidogu so the realms merge automatically, because he believes that this is orderly and disciplined, seemingly ignoring the destruction and evil that would come with it. Could be seen as Lawful Stupid in that in his militant haste to achieve order whenever he can, rather than say adhering to a certain ethical code in particular, he seems completely oblivious that he's unmaking reality and bringing about the end of the realms as he knows it. That he religiously adheres to an evil ruler, and commits evil under obedience because he's being 'lawful', while seemingly showing no compassion, means Lawful Neutral would not be an appropriate place to put him, perhaps focusing on his own ideology at the selfish expense of someone suffering. and is more than willing to kill if he thinks someone is on the side of chaos. He sided with the Big Bad of Deception, his debut appearance, because he believed it would bring order to the realms, sided with the forces of evil in Armageddon, and was the first to kill in the Battle of Armageddon. Fittingly, the character he killed was Chaotic Good.
    • Its not to do with their different methods; Hotaru sides with Onaga because Onaga is a more Lawful tyrant and Outworld is less chaotic under his rule. Its not entirely clear if Hotaru is even aware that Onaga is trying to conquer all the realms (that is, anytime soon) and is more interested in bringing Order to Outworld by putting a more Orderly ruler back on the throne.

The first example has a long paragraph under it explaining it's not an example. (See: Repair Dont Respond, Conversation On The Main Page.) The second one is a bit confusing, but I disagree with the case that it's not some kind of Lawful Neutral, and the added paragraph (with the same faults as the last one) seems to provide evidence for that too. At the very least the second example would need a rewrite, but it seems to me it doesn't belong there at all.

Edited by VVK Hide / Show Replies

The Caligula (most often of either the Type 1 or 4 variety, if not Chaotic Evil or Neutral Evil)

I think this example should be removed if it says it can lend itself to both other evil alignments, thereby arguing with itself.

Proposed Changes:

Take out Type 2 and 3 and just refer to them in the opening paragraphs; change Type 1 to mean "more Lawful than Evil", Type 2 to "more Evil than Lawful" and Type 3 to a fair balance, which is basically the current Type 4. This brings it in line with the Lawful Good / Chaotic Good and Chaotic Evil pages and just generally makes more sense; a Lawful Evil mook shouldn't be a specific Type any more than a Chaotic Evil mook is, and like "personal code" and "civic order" are really more about different kinds of Lawful than different types of Lawful Evil.

In other words:

"

A Lawful Evil character is an evil character who either tries to impose or uphold a lawful system on others without regard for their wishes, and/or adheres to a particular code. They believe in order, but mostly because they believe it is the best way of realising their evil wishes. They will obey the letter of the law, but not the spirit, and are usually very careful about giving their word. However, there is also the Knight Templar variant, who believes their rules actually make them the good guy — when they and their rules have in truth ended up at the lower end of the slippery slope to evil and tyranny.

Though Lawful Evil characters are often found in charge, these characters also make good henchmen or mooks. Though they lack any moral scruples that may impair their work, a cautious villain will find they respond well to concepts like 'loyalty', 'duty', and 'honour'. The caution, however, should be remembered, as these characters also respond poorly to Bad Bosses and Dirty Cowards^note not that a Dirty Coward themselves Lawful Evil is something unheard of, far from it, as well as simple incompetence that could lead them to deciding to either find a more worthy master, or take over 'for the good of the cause', although some might simply be weak-willed and need somebody to tell them what to do.

As with Lawful Good, a Lawful Evil character may believe in either civic Order (ie. an orderly society or organization, or following the rules) or personal Order (ie. following a personal code of honor or simply having personal rules out of pragmatism); many have both elements. The essential feature is that they are, by behaviour or nature, inclined towards order in some form.

Lawful Evil comes in three flavors:

• Type 1 is those who are more Lawful than Evil. This type honestly believes that an orderly society or way of living is better for everyone or is just the way the prefer things to be, but are ruthless or cruel enough to take an "ends justify the means" approach to enforcing this. This type can be found in- and sometimes even be sincerely loyal to- any kind of society, including Neutral and Good aligned ones; the problem is, they are prepared to commit evil actions for it, and are prone to Moral Myopia, Lack of Empathy and Jerk Justifications to excuse their deeds. This type does not necessarily include any and all agents or upholders of Lawful Evil codes, cultures, empires etc. who may be Neutral or even Good-aligned, but have found themselves serving Evil by circumstance, cultural conditioning or birth. Expect Principles Zealot / Knight Templar behaviour as this type is often murderously intolerant of any opposition or perceived threats; also, though they may not hunger for power exactly, they might still seek it out in the name of security or to enforce their order on others. This can also be just as petty, vengeful or sadistic as any other villain; they are just much more likely to direct this against people who they feel have honestly wronged them or, in their mind at least, actually have it coming. They are also not any more trustworthy than any other evil character, as their first loyalty will be to their code or society or whatever and they may engage in betrayal either to advantage this or to eliminate a threat, or even because of Just Following Orders (real or presumed). At the high end, Totalitarian Utilitarian and those who seek to eradicate The Evils of Free Will often fall under this type.
• Type 2 is more Evil than Lawful, the kind of villain who follows an orderly way of living because they think that this is the best way to achieve their evil desires or goals. This type resembles pure selfish Neutral Evil, but differ because they use lawful methods because they honestly think they are the best- or because that's just where their talents or inclinations lie- rather than out of pure circumstance or convenience; in other words, if a non-Lawful means of achieving their goal presented itself, they would still at least prefer the Lawful option. This type can be selfish, cruel, power-hungry and outright sadistic, but are reluctant to actually commit any evil deeds without some sense of organization or direction; for example, someone who joins the army in order to kill people For the Evulz with a veneer or legal permission, or someone who joins a gang or crime syndicate to have backup or support for their evil deeds, or the more compulsively organized sadistic Serial Killers or violent criminals. Many a chessmasters and Evil Genius (though by no means all) fit this type, as they prefer their crimes and orders to be carried out methodically. Often slightly more trustworthy than other evil types, but beware of Exact Words or simply catching them on a bad day.
• Type 3 is a balance of both Lawful and Evil. They see little distinction their Lawful desires or inclinations and their Evil ones, and seek to satisfy both. Frequently the most dangerous type, at the extreme end this includes characters that simply hate freedom and will enslave people out of malice, or those who get their jollies from imposing ridiculously harsh rules with even more ridiculous consequences for breaking them. (Not totally arbitrary rules, though, that goes over to Chaotic.) Dystopia Justifies the Means can fall under this category and they use law and order principally as instruments of suffering and oppression for its own sake and not (just) that of power or running The Empire efficiently. They might keep up appearances of a Noble Demon but at best they will abuse the hell out of Exact Words and at their worst they will flat out lie and cheat in spite of it. Most Lawful Evil characters in Dungeons & Dragons are this type including Hextor, the iconic god of Lawful Evil. Darkseid is the classic example of this sort of villain and demonstrates just why it is the worst of the Lawful Evil types.

"

Edited by 2.223.201.138

Challenging the Disgaea entry. Not the Vulcanus entry, but the other one. A lot of the lore implies that Disgaea demons don't nessecarily hate humans, suggesting Punch-Clock Villain in terms of collecting fear energy. Valvatorez personally wants humans to be good, acting like a Dark Shepard.

Noble Demon is pretty common in the series (many openly get disgusted with the acts of more vile characters such as Seedle, Zenon, Aurum, and Vulcanus), as is Poke the Poodle, such as this line from the 3rd game's bad ending. Mao: What? I only replaced all stop signs with yields, hid people's shoes, and prank called a few places at most! The 3rd game implies creatures of chaos.

Conclusion: Chaotic Neutral is more accurate. Note that Chaotic Neutral is a very common alignment for Noble Demon (actually being the most common one if not actually evil).

Edited by 76.227.148.238

"Lawful Evil type typically includes:

• Most Anti Villains"

Isn't it more fair saying "Many Anti Villains (especially Type I's)"? Characters of any alignment (including good ones) have the potential to be anti villains. But I think the archetypical Type I Anti-Villain AKA Noble Demon is a good candidate to Lawful Evil.

Srg. Dornan: Troper, what are you doing here?! Get back to your post!!!

I am wanting discuss this recently removed example:

• The Millennium organization from Manga/Hellsing. They are an organized nazi army but their only real goals are to wage endless destructive war and to kill Alucard, in other words are really similar to the habitants of Acheron, the Lawful Neutral/ Lawful Evil plane, and are vampires and not of the Friendly Neighbour Vampire variety

Edited by 216.99.32.45

Two-Face from The Dark Knight: Isn't the whole point of his flipping a coin to decide actions to embrace the wantonness of life as described to him by the Joker? As a rule, it's also a nonsensical one and has random results, in a sense even more random than doing things at a whim.

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I didn't think the Numenorian king Ar-Pharazon sounded Lawful Evil when I was reading that story. More like just crazy. Is there some better reason for saying he was than just his wanting to rule the whole world?

Would Frieza ("the perfect emperor" according to his theme song) from [[Dragon Ball Z]] count? He has a royal title and appears to be the ruler of an entire organization with a rigid hierarchy of officials and subordinates.

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I removed Doctor Eggman from the list and moved him to Neutral Evil. I know he's Affably Evil but he's not Lawful. His goal is to tear down an old order and even though he may seek to replace it with his own, his methods are too chaotic, and his alliances too easily broken. Really, his 'code' extends only as far as "You can't destroy the planet because I want to run it".

It may feel easy to make him lawful because he's a scientist and because of those robots, but those are his Mooks, not him. He is also prone towards using the 'magic' of the Chaos Emeralds.

Edited by HarleyQuinnhyenaholic Hide / Show Replies

Wouldn't Zolf J. Kimblee from Fullmetal Alchemist count as either this or Lawful Neutral? The "lawful" part being his deranged set of ethics/standards, which he holds himself to and also expects others to adhere to, and the "evil" part being that his code didn't say anything about turning people into living bombs - but he could be "neutral" (in Brotherhood, at least) because he doesn't necessarily carry the same Psycho for Hire flair as his anime counterpart, and is more of a Social Darwinist. I don't know, should I add?

Edited by Stoogebie Hide / Show Replies

I've been saying this for a while, but most Lawful Evil characters in Dungeons And Dragons are not sympathetic or well intentioned in the slightest, and are just likely to dabble into For the Evulz.

Noble Demon Lawful Evil characters are by far in the minority.

Could we make a special exception for Adolf Hitler? I know that character alignments are meant for 2D fictional characters, but Hitler would definitely be tagged as this if he were a fictional villain.

Edited by DJMarred I am the lone wolf. I do not lead or follow. Hide / Show Replies

Removed Affably Evil, because a Character Affably Evil not necessarily is Lawful Evil.

PS: The libby are Neutral Selfish, not Lawful Evil

Edited by cclospina

• Shinobu Sensui is often pegged as Chaotic Evil, but considering that he's got seven different personalities, the deal is much more complex than it seems. Out of said personalities, his original Shinobu one (which was hidden after Sensui went completely mad, only resurfacing while fighting the heroes) qualifies as very much Lawful Evil: he's determined to fulfill his mission as a Spirit Detective, and he goes to bloody lengths to get it - as much as the rules he follows allow him to. And it makes even more sense once you consider that he's the Evil Counterpart of the Spirit Detective that took his place, Yuusuke Urameshi, a textbook Chaotic Good.

Huhn?!? In no moment after his Face Heelturn is implied he want follow his old mission neither shows follow any rule-actually, he looks more a textbook example of The Unfettered.By the way, more Lawful Evil characters are Evil Counterparts to Lawful Good characters.

Are we going to draw a distinction between the "types" Once there was a "type 1" versus a "type 2". I'm not sure of what that distinction means. It would be very helpful to explain it. I came here after finding the character sheet for Viral on Gurren Lagann called him Lawful Evil (Type 2).

Edited by 216.99.32.45 an heroic gesture would do the world good Hide / Show Replies

Removed this:

• Magnificent Bastard Benjamin Linus, from Lost, appears more Neutral Evil, until the end of the fourth season, where, for all the lying and backstabbing , he seems to have a genuine commitement to the interests of the Island.
  • Also, whatever else he may lie about (and he will lie about everything, just for the hell of it), whenever he gives somebody his word, he always honors it.

Nah, Ben's as NE as they come. Whne was the last time he 'gave his word' without trying to go back on it or hoping he wouldn't have to? (Locke blowing up the sub, letting Jack etc. leave on the helicopter and then moving the island and (by proxy) blowing up the freighter. He even admits in Season 6 there were only two things he cared about: Alex and his power. And (even though it broke him)he admits to choosing his power over her.

am i on the innernet?