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Justabirdie Professional Slacker Since: Mar, 2021
Professional Slacker
Jun 8th 2021 at 2:04:16 PM •••

The page is missing, but when you go to edit it it's still there. I'd fix it myself, but have no idea how.

I tried to stare into the abyss, but then it got distracted by a squirrel and ran away.
Aszur A nice butterfly Since: Apr, 2014
A nice butterfly
May 5th 2014 at 10:44:32 AM •••

I am uncertain if it happens in the book, but I clearly recall in the 1986 film adaptation of "The Name of the Rose" with Sean Connery, a character who is burned at the stake sings an Italian Nursery Rhyme (Ninna nanna a sette e venti) to great creepy effect.

It could fit as an example, I believe

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
Prfnoff Since: Jan, 2001
Dec 3rd 2012 at 9:53:17 AM •••

This example needs to explain itself better, if it really is an example:

  • Meteos. Planet Jeljel (Magmor in Europe). Concentrated fearsome in an otherwise light-hearted game.
    • Yep, the light-hearted game about preventing planetary annihilation.

LayLay Deus ex Machina Since: Nov, 2010
Deus ex Machina
Mar 18th 2012 at 11:24:11 AM •••

About the "Deadman Wonderland" example: Is it a real traditional nursery rhyme in Japan or made up for the manga?

psychohistorian The Narrator Since: Jan, 2011
The Narrator
Apr 20th 2011 at 10:45:46 AM •••

There is evidence to suggest that "Ring around the rosies" is about the black plague. The first symptom of the black plague is a rash of red spots enclosed by red circles that cover the body. If the plague followed its course it would terminate in sometimes the falling of the victim down stairs, and always the burning of the body of the host victim.

Edited by psychohistorian I will laugh when you are in trouble! When they cry for help, I will not answer. -Jesus rebuttal to fools found in proverbs 1:26-28? Hide / Show Replies
TechUnadept Since: Oct, 2010
Oct 3rd 2011 at 10:13:03 PM •••

I thought it was that posies were the herb used to treat it, and the last thing you do before dropping dead was let out a thunderous sneeze...

Likes: being left alone, food. Dislikes: You personally, even if we never met.
otakujoe Since: Dec, 1969
Nov 5th 2011 at 12:22:46 AM •••

Check out this site for more info - http://www.rhymes.org.uk/ring_around_the_rosy.htm.

Origins of "Ring around the rosy" in English History

Connections to the Bubonic Plague (Black Death)? The words to the Ring around the rosy children's ring game have their origin in English history . The historical period dates back to the Great Plague of London in 1665 (bubonic plague) or even before when the first outbreak of the Plague hit England in the 1300's. The symptoms of the plague included a rosy red rash in the shape of a ring on the skin (Ring around the rosy). Pockets and pouches were filled with sweet smelling herbs ( or posies) which were carried due to the belief that the disease was transmitted by bad smells. The term "Ashes Ashes" refers to the cremation of the dead bodies! The death rate was over 60% and the plague was only halted by the Great Fire of London in 1666 which killed the rats which carried the disease which was transmitting via water sources. The English version of "Ring around the rosy" replaces Ashes with (A-tishoo, A-tishoo) as violent sneezing was another symptom of the disease. We recommend the following site for comprehensive information regarding the Bubonic Plague. http://www.william-shakespeare.info/bubonic-black-plague-elizabethan-era.htm

Views of the Sceptics The connection between this Rhyme was made by James Leasor in 1961 in his non-fiction book ' The Plague and the Fire. Some people are sceptical of the plague interpretations of this rhyme, many stating that words in the rhyme cannot be found in Middle English. The sceptics must be referring to the later version of the rhyme, possibly with American origins, the English version is "Ring a ring o' rosies" using the Middle English "o" as a shortening of the word "of". The written word " posies" is first mentioned in a poem called 'Prothalamion or A Spousal Verse' by Edmund Spenser (1552-1599). We believe that this addresses the views of the sceptics.

Ring around the rosy AKA as Ring a ring o' rosies

Ring around the rosy A pocketful of posies "Ashes, Ashes" We all fall down!

Ring-a-Ring o'Rosies A Pocket full of Posies "A-tishoo! A-tishoo!" We all fall Down! Ring around the rosy AKA as Ring a ring o' rosies

otakujoe Since: Dec, 1969
Nov 5th 2011 at 12:29:16 AM •••

Another well thought out reply to the same issue -

Ring a ring o'roses, a pocketful of posies, atishoo, atishoo, all fall down Meaning

Verse from a nursery rhyme. Origin

ring a rig 'o rosesThere are many versions of this rhyme, some of which use entirely different words to the roses/rosy variants. The most commonly seen first lines are 'ring a ring of (or o') roses (or rosy)' and 'ring around a rosy'. The most common variant of the third line, especially in the USA, is 'ashes, ashes'. The many versions aren't surprising as, being lines from a playground rhyme, they would have first been spoken, sung or chanted rather than recorded in a book.

It is often suggested that the rhyme relates to the symptoms of plague, specifically the Black Death - the bubonic plague that spread through Europe in the 1340s, or to the Great Plague of London, 1665/6. The plausible-sounding theory has it that the 'ring' was the ring of sores around the mouths of plague victims, who subsequently sneezed and fell down dead.

Those with more knowledge of etymology will shake their heads sagely and explain that the plague theory is a well-known falsehood. The idea is usually dismissed for these reasons:

ring a ring of roses1. The first appearance of the rhyme in print is in Kate Greenaway's Mother Goose, which wasn't published until 1881, suggesting that the rhyme originated far too late for the Great Plague to have been the origin:

Ring-a-ring-a-roses, A pocket full of posies; Hush! hush! hush! hush! We're all tumbled down.

2. The 'atishoo, atishoo, all fall down' lyric isn't present in many of the the numerous versions and neither soreness about the mouth nor sneezing tally with the actual symptoms of people suffering from bubonic plague.

3. The noted folklorists of childhood Iona and Peter Opie have reported that the plague theory didn't appear until the 1950s. If the theory were true then we would expect to see it in circulation much sooner than that.

Despite the strong evidence against it, some of the refutations of the plague theory are rather too emphatic in their rejection of this idea. Let's look at those items of evidence in turn:

Firstly, the 1881 date that is part of the refutations is a little misleading; it is the first known printing of the complete rhyme, but the game and the 'ring a ring of rosies' line were known well before that. The game and the rhyme were known in the USA, and quite probably elsewhere, by 1855, when it was included in The Old Homestead, a novel by Ann S. Stephens. This depicts children playing 'Ring, ring a rosy' in New York.

William Wells Newell, the author of Games and Songs of American Children, 1884, wrote that Ring a Ring a Rosie, with the familiar tune, was in use by children in Bedford, Massachusetts, circa 1790. The version he recorded was:

Ring a ring a rosie A bottle full of posie, All the girls in our town, Ring for little Josie

Newell was a respected folklorist but, unfortunately, he didn't supply documentary evidence for his assertion.

The argument that the lyric couldn't have lasted in common playground parlance without being recorded in print from the days of the Black Death in the 1340s until 1881 has some weight. The Black Death wasn't the only occurrence of plague in England - the population also suffered Great Plague of 1665. That 'ring a ring o'roses' lay unrecorded between 1665 and 1790 doesn't seem entirely impossible - many phrases have lain dormant for longer than that. Children's rhymes would have been of little interest to authors in the 17th century and printing was then still an expensive process. There's no evidence to suggest that these lines originated as anything other than a children's rhyme and would inevitably have been known to children for some time before appearing in print. How long a time is open to conjecture, but 125 years - well, why not?

Secondly, both coughing, sneezing and bright red sputum are symptoms of pneumonic plague, which has just as good a claim to be the rhyme's origin as does bubonic plague.

Thirdly, the Opies only claim that they haven't found evidence of the plague theory from before the 1950s; they don't know when it actually originated.

So, the items of evidence against the plague origin of the rhyme are open to doubt. However, showing that something is possible doesn't make it true. It is a common urge to try to ascribe meaning to ambiguous lyrics and poems - for example, 'Pop goes the weasel'.

An alternative and more probable explanation, and one which is almost always the case with nursery rhymes, is that the words are playful nonsense.

The plague derivation is indeed unlikely but, in their haste to denounce an apparent fallacy, several websites have begged the question by swallowing the assertion that 'the first time the phrase appears in print is 1881' as fact. As a French wine producer once said after tasting a poor imported wine which was labelled 'Appellation d’origine contrôlée'; "the paper never refuses the ink" - that goes double for digital paper.

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