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FictionAlchemist
topic
06:42:12 AM Jun 15th 2014
I removed Madoka Magica from the list. It's just silly to me to refer to a magical girls show as having an IMPROBABLE female cast. It has a majority female cast, yeah, but that's completely different.
CSarracenian
topic
01:01:18 AM Dec 30th 2013
Okay, you guys literally discussed about the bad implications of this trope for literally two years now.

Maybe it's time to actually do something? I can't without looking like some kind of saboteur, so...
Larkmarn
07:04:21 AM Dec 30th 2013
... literally?
SilverSlippers77
02:39:46 PM Jan 27th 2014
Yes, can we? Please?
SapphireBlue
12:58:44 PM Apr 16th 2014
...yeah, we need to do something about this page.
Larkmarn
01:14:32 PM Apr 16th 2014
What are the issues with the page? And what are your proposed fixes?

Many of the people who have commented on this discussion have done drive by "this page is broken" comments and not actually clarified or explained themselves, which is utterly useless if you want something fixed. Without sufficient explanation, the vast majority of complaints come across as (and possibly are) Political Correctness Gone Mad.

So please, elaborate.
tlatoch
topic
11:57:05 AM Oct 15th 2013
Why is the image quote a Touhou meme?
DaisyChainsaw
topic
12:16:46 AM Aug 4th 2013
edited by 70.33.253.45
Never mind. Just noticed my point was already covered
ninjadude853
topic
11:09:20 AM May 8th 2013
How is Y The Last Man on here? The premise literally requires virtually all the cast to be female. In a world where almost all the men died, how is it improbable that most of the characters are female?
Larkmarn
06:05:20 AM May 9th 2013
Well, I suppose you could argue that it's improbable for all men to die out... but that's a reach. Cutting it.
EmperorSteele
topic
10:57:40 AM Jul 18th 2012
Does My Little Pony belong here? I'd argue that the female:male ratio is more of an inversion of the Smurffette Principle, and not an "unlikely situation" in the same vein as a mostly-female military squad or some other normally male-dominated situation.

Now granted, if you have a town/country/whatever where 90+% of the population is only one gender, that IS unlikely, but I didn't think that's what the trope was about.
MithrandirOlorin
topic
12:10:50 PM Jul 7th 2012
Strawberry Panic! should be removed, that's not improbably female, all girls schools do exist. Imporbably Gay perhaps but not female.
P0W4HL4D33
topic
06:55:05 AM Dec 5th 2011
Is anyone else uncomfortable with the name change to "Improbably Female Cast"? This is a label we're going to use on every female-heavy media, even if it does make sense (like an all girl school, show that observes the life of female characters, etc.), implying that any excess of girls is "improbable" in any story. Can't we change it to "Cast full of Pretty Girls", so it's a little less of a backhanded sting, and that it matches it's spear counterpart?
MrSiegal
04:54:17 PM Feb 1st 2012
I agree. This title has a vague sexism simmering under it.
MrDeath
07:03:48 AM Feb 2nd 2012
The description says it's specifically for when it doesn't make sense—like if you've got an all-woman squad in what was historically an all-male military, or similar. If someone's using it for "every female-heavy media" then it's not an example, and you can just remove it.
StudiousJones
10:42:23 AM Sep 19th 2012
The title does read badly when you consider that the equivalent has an entirely different tone to it. Unless an "Improbably Male Cast" becomes it's own category, which it could as there are a number of them, I agree that a name change would be a good idea.
cactuartamer
11:42:03 PM May 27th 2013
Agreed. It really does have have very uncomfortable connotations to it.

More to the point, by changing the title, the scope of the meaning is actually changed so that, as we see in the examples above this one, properties with majority female casts like Y the Last Man and Strawberry Panic now no longer fit.

Unless there is some kind of an actual reason to do that, I personally vote that it needs to go back to something more plainly descriptive of a majority-female cast, without any implications baked in.
pouritonmycereal
01:03:48 AM May 28th 2013
edited by 216.99.32.45
I'd like to point out this article about how there are plenty of examples of women in battle throughout history. http://aidanmoher.com/blog/featured-article/2013/05/we-have-always-fought-challenging-the-women-cattle-and-slaves-narrative-by-kameron-hurley/ And this site full of such examples. http://www.lothene.org/others/women.html There have always been stories that exclusively involve women, people just don't tell them as often. The whole premise of this trope is flawed.
Larkmarn
05:21:59 AM May 28th 2013
^^ The point is, implications of some sort are the entire point of tropes. The point of tropes is that they're used for a reason, as a means to communicate something to the audience. The idea of changing this trope to being about "the cast is mostly female" just pretty People Sit on Chairs-y
pouritonmycereal
01:01:44 PM May 28th 2013
edited by 216.99.32.42
But there are a wide range of implications for stories that are mostly about women, and they're not all just a cast of characters for fetishization or stories for little girls. This trope page is all over the place, lumping together a huge spectrum of different stories all under the umbrella of stories where males aren't prominent. And again, there is no gender reversed equivalent. Skullgirls and My Little Pony aren't any more a part of the same trope than Starfighter and The Sandlot are. This subject should be broken up into several tropes, hopefully with less problematic names.
TobuIshi
02:22:59 PM May 28th 2013
edited by 69.172.221.8
I also agree that this trope's premise is flawed and its title is unsettlingly sexist. Where is the line drawn to mark an "improbable" ratio of women in the cast of a story? Why is this nebulous concept of "too many" women something that needs to be called out as a trope?

For that matter, are we next going to create a Sister Trope called Improbably Male Cast and start filling it up with all the stories that didn't bother including any significant female characters in situations that realistically would include at least a few? I call that a Herculean and ultimately pointless task, not to mention dangerously close to a People Sit on Chairs situation - as is this trope.

If smaller, more identifiable tropes can be found within it, break the entries up into those categories, but we really ought to get rid of this vague and awkward category.
MrDeath
07:58:13 AM May 29th 2013
If you ask me, the line should be drawn by statistical or historical fact. Like if you have a WWII-era fighting unit that has a bunch of women in it—it's a time when, historically, the military was entirely male. Or, alternately, if it's taking place in a profession that's known for being mostly male—police, engineering, comic-book writing, etc.
Larkmarn
08:45:42 AM May 29th 2013
And the reason that there's no male version is because of the omnipresent trope Men Are Generic, Women Are Special. A fighting group comprised entirely of men? Doesn't really have much significance. And yet we have Amazon Brigade because a fighting unit of women actually has meaning.
commandershepard13
02:10:47 PM Jun 7th 2013
If my two cents mean anything, I think this trope should be changed to something alone the lines of "Improbably one-gendered cast" or something similar; its not as if their aren't stories out there that have improbably male casts(like the majority of yaoi stories, which will often have no female anywhere for no reason whatsoever) and this trope should reflect that. Additionally, keeping it female only is rather sexist.
commandershepard13
02:10:49 PM Jun 7th 2013
If my two cents mean anything, I think this trope should be changed to something alone the lines of "Improbably one-gendered cast" or something similar; its not as if their aren't stories out there that have improbably male casts(like the majority of yaoi stories, which will often have no female anywhere for no reason whatsoever) and this trope should reflect that. Additionally, keeping it female only is rather sexist.
pouritonmycereal
02:47:18 AM Jun 16th 2013
edited by 216.99.32.45
@Mr Death Except there were all female ww2 era fighting units: see the Night Witches. And there are all female police units: see the examples in India. And all female comic book companies: see CLAMP. And even in professions where there aren't official all female companies, there are still plenty of stories that happen to women and don't involve men in those professions.

Why is this not at least "Unusual Female Cast"? "Improbable" is so damned insulting. And this trope is still a huge mess. "This can range from males being present in the setting but not given screen time or importance to the story, to literally the majority of the people in the main setting are female." So the only criteria for a story about women being "Improbable" is for there to not be a lot of men around. As if it is "improbable" (Adjective; Not likely to be true or to happen. Unexpected and apparently inauthentic) that women could have anything going on in their lives that doesn't revolve around men. Why has nothing changed here?
Larkmarn
12:13:07 PM Jun 16th 2013
How is "improbable" insulting when, if used correctly, it is improbable? Sure, there have been all-female units like you say. There have also been 9 foot tall humans. It would still be improbable if I said that I'm eight feet tall.

Also I really fail to understand how Improbably Female Cast is more insulting than "Unusually Female Cast." That doesn't make a lick of sense.

Though I do agree the page does need some clean up.
MrDeath
08:23:39 AM Jun 17th 2013
@Mr Death Except there were all female ww2 era fighting units: see the Night Witches. And there are all female police units: see the examples in India. And all female comic book companies: see CLAMP. And even in professions where there aren't official all female companies, there are still plenty of stories that happen to women and don't involve men in those professions.

Then the trope would not apply to those. The trope would apply to having a bunch of women in a regular WWII fighting unit, like the 82nd Airborne.

And yeah, I don't see how it's insulting. The page needs clean-up, sure, but the word "improbable" isn't insulting at all.
MakiP
10:45:27 AM Aug 8th 2013
I agree that the problem is not the "Improbably" title, but the content. Just glancing at the page I notice that most examples appear to be works with just a mostly female cast even if it's not actually improbable. And that its counterpart is "Cast Full of Pretty Boys" a completely different thing. I mean, why there isn't a "Improbably Male Cast", where it would be odd or unlikely to have more men than women?
Larkmarn
11:37:28 AM Aug 8th 2013
Cast Full of Pretty Boys is a completely different thing. It's unrelated to this trope, hence why this had its name change. If you think there should be an Improbably Male Cast trope, then go ahead and make it.
causalitystar
12:18:56 AM Aug 30th 2013
I think I'm going to have to agree with the people who pointed out that this trope is kinda sexist, especially since there is no male equivalent trope.

@Larkman Way to use the false equivalence fallacy there.
Larkmarn
06:05:15 AM Aug 30th 2013
edited by 216.99.32.44
... could you clarify? It doesn't really help the discussion to just say my name, claim I'm using a fallacy and not, you know, explaining how (or which post you're referring to).

And again, if you want an Improbably Male Cast trope, take it to YKTTW. It's not TV Tropes' job to make tropes you think exist.
Larkmarn
07:41:45 PM Jan 3rd 2014
FYI: Someone made an Improbably Male Cast YKTTW... but they did an awful job of it.

If you're that adamant about it, maybe you can help fix it?

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/discussion.php?id=3hcuefs96c9ni9d5aav85xaq
ArcadesSabboth
topic
06:40:06 PM Nov 22nd 2011
edited by ArcadesSabboth
Removed this example because it looks like a setting where a mostly female cast is to be expected.

  • In [[Webcomics/Outsider Outsider,]] the alien Loroi are a race of Blue/grey skinned space babes in which only the females are allowed to fight the wars. This is justified because a) Loroi Birthrates are nearly ten-to-one in favor of the females, and b) males are weaker and smaller than the females. Combined with the massive, xenocidal war going on throughout the spiral arm, Loroi males are kept at home for safety and breeding purposes.
Captainhook
topic
03:23:22 PM Oct 26th 2011
Why is this locked?
Dentaku
07:10:40 AM Oct 28th 2011
Good question.
g17
12:17:07 PM Oct 31st 2011
I'm going to say they're working on it to make the trope fit non-animes or something
back to Main/ImprobablyFemaleCast

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