Subjective. What scares you may not scare me, and visa-versa.

I'd say that a little bit of subjectivity would be kind of expected. Why should you get to declare what's scary and what isn't?

Yes people are way too easily scared these days. I'm 12 easily scared and DEFINITLY NOT SCARED OF DISNEY POKEMON AND ZELDA. I'm barely even scared of Resident Evil though I love its story and plot

Or naruto perfect blue, roald dahl lost, and oz for that matter.

Yeah, sometimes I think that some tropers are just wimps.

As noted above, this is a subjective trope, and just because you're not scared of it doesn't mean someone else isn't.

Coming from one of those wimps you felt the need to insult.

Might I suggest something? What if we create an ordinary Nightmare fuel page (I believe it already exists as a trope) and put the examples that are definitely not HO scary in that?

Oh, sorry, just viewed the Nightmare Fuel page. Hmmm... how about calling it something else, like Petrol Nightmare Fuel, and keeping this for the elite ones that scare or badly scar everyone?

That sounds like a much better idea than all the strange 'watering-down' sort of things people have been doing to this page recently (For example: putting overly vivid and extremely nightmare retardant descriptions of the image links next to them, which ruins several of the vital principles of horror). Some people seem to not understand that these images, links, tropes, etc etc are NOT supposed to be pleasant. They are, as the name states, high octane nightmare fuel. If you don't want to lose sleep, then you SHOULDN'T BE ON THE PAGE. Plain and simple, people.

I always thought it meant "intended to scare you and is at least partially successful", not "really, really scary".

There are some serious overreactions going down on the page for certain. But one man's garbage is another mans gold I suppose though there may be elements of trolling being done in some cases.

Ah but what you forgot to say was in before "you're trying to surruptiously get around discussion currently ongoing pertaining to this issue by not referring to it here, referring it to this cut attempt and not allowing time for repair shop tinkering to take a course of action on the page that might make this redundant".

Keep this. Oh and to Cidolfas, that didn't save IANMTU from getting cut.

I wouldn't call High Octane Nightmare Fuel irreparable. I say we stick on a Subjective banner, delete a few things, and it'll be fine.

Agreed. Trope repair, not cutlist.

Like they said. Yikes.

sure, go ahead.

First: can we talk about things before we do them? Please? That way I don't wander into a page like this and nearly die of a heart attack?

Second: I partially agree with whoever said "Let's make a rule: The content on the nightmare fuel pages can't REALLY BE nightmare fuel." TV Tropes isn't supposed to ruin our life THAT way!

Nightmare Fuel is Nightmare Fuel is Nightmare Fuel. You wouldn't put a Star Wars picture on the Star Trek page. You wouldn't put a picture of the Cowardly Lion under the Brute page. The pictures are there for immediate visual reference. The Terminator is not Nighmtare Fuel, and, thus, really shouldn't be there. If Inland Empire is too scary, well, let's see what can be done.

Wouldn't want to scare all you delicate folk ;)

Got any suggestions for a Page Pic?

The Terminator is scary. The first film was a slasher flick with a chilling villain and a genuinely disturbing premise (which hasn't gotten better since we've been more reliant on computers). Plus The Reveal of the Terminator's endoskeleton was a genuine shock in the '80s, even if we expect it nowadays.

I think first and foremost, the pictures need to be SFW. How many of us tropers like to waste time during school/college/university/work browsing the nooks and crannies on this site? If someone looks over your shoulder and sees the Terminator, they'll give a brief chuckle and keep walking. If someone sees the Inland Empire image, they'll do a double-take and look at you like a freak. It's courteous to the public, as well - what if an old lady in a public library sees that face?

If we can't reach an agreement on what page images are suitable for the HONF pages, I think we should scrap them altogether to avoid offending the wrong people (we're not 4chan after all).

One final word for this page - what about reaction faces for the main image rather than a selected fiction image? Like Ron Jeremy's reaction to goatse - nothing could communicate what HONF actually means better than that.

Could we possibly do something like the current image on Nightmare Face? Kind of a humourous unreveal-type thing?

Yeah that seems solid. Terminator pic with the caption "For an actually scary image, go here [Link]."

I like the idea of the reaction shot. There are plenty of You Tube videos out there of small children being subjected to the Maze Game - mightn't we find one of those that is particularly emotive and paste it up there? They usually have the monitor within the shot so it's clear that there's something horribly frightening being displayed, and the person (read: poor unfortunate sod) playing the game is reacting appropriately, so it's clear that what's on screen has a profound effect on the viewer, but at the same time the image isn't threatening to jump off the troper's screen and devour them alive.

I think Man Without A Body put it best when he said on the now-archived discussion page that anything that's a genuine example of HONF is too creepy to have as a page image, and most people who posted on the discussion page agreed. We want an image that gets the idea of the trope across, but won't make the 95% of tropers that aren't Nightmare Fetishists break their mice hitting the back button while pissing their pants in terror. Not all of us have nerves of steel.

I think we should keep it the Terminator, since, well, that particular shot was based on James Cameron's nightmares, and is creepy enough to convey the point. A reaction shot would work too, or a Dis Simile like the Nightmare Face page has, but I think the Terminator works better.

If we can't decide on an image, or if people keep changing it to stuff like smiledog, that one Tails doll, and the Inland Empire face because "the Terminator isn't scary, here's something that's really scary," I vote we just scrap the idea of HONF having a page image all together. It's not worth it.

If I may just jump in here and share my own opinion, I personally think the Terminator is the perfect image for this article.

While not scary in the traditional sense (i.e. ghosts, ghouls, demons, monsters, etc.), the Terminator represents something that human beings, as a whole, are engineered to fear: something which is itself engineered to hunt and destroy us. Consider Humans Are Cthulhu for a moment - if it's true that we humans are "superpredators" to the animal kingdom, and that they would fear us as such, would something like the Terminator not exist as a "superpredator" for humans? As a rule of thumb, killer robots generally don't need to eat, sleep or breathe; they have no emotions and feel no pity or remorse; they never tire and can continue hunting without slowing down or stopping; they have no mission other than to hunt and destroy human beings, effectively making them a creature that even we - the "most dangerous game of all" - fear and revile. While the Terminator itself may not be the first thing that is conjured up in a person's mind if they're asked to think of something scary - and remember, Nightmare Fuel is a very subjective trope at the best of times - it's still something that our entire species is programmed to be afraid of. Worse still, robots are created by humans (or Skynet in the Terminator case, but humans built that in the first place, too), so we're pretty much being hunted and slain by something we ourselves created. Oh, and if one Terminator isn't bad enough, there's also the matter of there being an entire race of the bastards whose sole purpose is the total eradication of humankind. There's also the fact that they're walking skeletons with evil eyes, like metal-plated hellspawn of the Uncanny Valley or Dem Bones taken to its most horrifying and deranged. To me, at least, that just screams High Octane Nightmare Fuel.

Plus, y'know, there's that whole "he appeared in a nightmare!" schtick.

Just my two cents. I vote for keeping the Terminator image (grim, unsettling, came from an actual nightmare, primal fear, still relatively viewer-friendly and inoffensive), or just putting up a Dis Simile; I feel that having to scrap the image entirely would be a bit of a shame.

If the people have spoken then the people have spoken. Terminator it is. As long as the page gets to have an image. Scrapping it would be pointless.

As an aside...I've seen smiledog, I've seen Inland Empire, but what's the Tails doll image? Don't worry, I can take it :P

Check the archived discussion and page history - there should be a link in there somewhere. I was posting requests for links to all the proposed images too - I wish I could find a nice hi-res copy of SMILE.DOG to be my desktop background. I've contemplated setting it as the background on my HTPC (which is hooked up to an 800x600 projector, effecting a wall-sized screen) but I don't think my girlfriend would like that very much. She's probably get revenge by setting it to the IE face. You know, the one image in the world that I can't handle.

The Lucky Star - I didn't even think of that. I guess the Terminator really is the perfect representative of this trope.

Canjul - It's a frame from a flash animation, here's a link to it.

Incidentally, would someone be so good as to describe the Inland Empire face? I'd at least appreciate an explanation of why it's so scary before I blindly look for it and have a panic attack. @_@

It's an image of Laura Dern, but warped with bits and pieces enlarged here and there. Her eye's look mishapen, twisted into a expression of intense anguish, and her mouth is engorged to grotesque proportions into some kind of gaping, carnivorous maw. It sort of looks like she Came Back Wrong. But that description can't quite do justice to how subtly and unbelievably nightmarish the face is.

I posted a link to it in the Inland Empire main page. You can click on it if you like; the warning I posted before it about sums up the potential damage the image can do. There's something very subliminally powerful about that face that most other "twisted face" images lack.

...Huh. Honestly, I was expecting more. I thought it was more funny and ridiculous than actually scary.

That said, though, I can see why it would freak you right out if you weren't expecting it, and it does become quite unsettling if you stare at it for a little while.

I have heard a few people mention the same thing. It's really interesting how imagery affects different people in different ways. I find it to be the single most terrifying thing I've ever seen, but at the same time other people find it goofy. I know someone who said they were literally on the verge of tears while watching Event Horizon because it was so scary, but I used to watch it in bed to lull me to sleep. Granted that last bit could be because I'm something of a Nightmare Fetishist but even so, I find it fascinating how horror can be so subjective and individual.

How can we make certain that no one changes the page image? I mean, I have very little desire to see smile dog again.

Until somebody figures out how to lock specific parts of an entry, we're going to have to make do with hoping people read the comment at the beginning asking to stop changing the pic. Because you really can't unsee this stuff. I'm scared to check the HONF page half the time, because I'm afraid somebody might've changed the pic again to something that will make me unable to sleep later. (And I feel you on smile dog. Not again not again not again.)

I did a quick skim down the New Media page looking for something a few minutes ago, and I noticed that one could use some grooming. It's not too heavily nattery, but it does seem to have a good infestation of the "That? Really?"s. Which, when you think about it a second is an idiotic question.

I was planning on doing some trimming there and taking a look at some of the others when it's light out tomorrow (I learned my lesson after getting stupidly curious and looking smile.dog up on Google in the middle of the night, thanks), but here's my question: We've already got the Subjective banner up at the top of the page, but would it be worthwhile to add something like "In answer to the question you might be asking, yes. That. Really. Remember this is a subjective trope; the example wouldn't be here if someone didn't think it fit the trope" to the main page text? Or is that just me being snipey over something that really annoys me?

Speaking of Smile Dog, I have a similar request to the one above. Could you... um... describe how does the image look? I mean, I was about to look at the inland empore pic, but i hate ditorsionated pics... so,uh,no. But please tell me what smile dog looks like! (yes I'm a nightmare fetishist, in some way, but still)

SMILE.DOG comes in two variants. One is a dimly-lit image of a dog (wolf-like, probably a husky or malimute, maybe German shepherd) sporting an evil grin. The other looks like a dark-haired woman in a white shirt with her face replaced by what looks like an animal (though not necessarily a dog) whose flesh has been stripped off, exposing bloody muscle tissue, and wearing the biggest grin you've ever seen with all its teeth visible. Oh, also, they're human teeth.

Of the two SMILE.DOG pictures, the actual dog one is probably creepier, but the bright-bloody-face one is more likely to scare someone right away and/or make the viewer jump.

Between IE and doggie, I personally think that the Inland Empire picture is by far the harder one to swallow.

Don't forget the other details in the second Smiledog pic - the blank, hollow eyes that stare right into your soul, the rusty curtains that look like they might be covered in blood, the eerie, dusky twilight outside the curtains...and what looks to me uncomfortably like a human arm to the left of Smilie.

Also, a woman with a dog's face? Interesting. I always thought the hair was a pair of doggie ears and the shirt was just white fur. I'll have to take another look at it and see for myself.

The way I see it, Smiledog is scary, but especially so if - like me - you saw it alone in your room at 3 AM and were very much unable to sleep well that night. When I looked at it a little while later, it wasn't nearly as scary as I remembered it, and now I can look at it and just chuckle a little. I find him kind of endearing, in a horrible, gruesome, nightmarish sort of way.

Incidentally, is there any sort of story behind what the hell they're supposed to be? Didn't someone write a Creepypasta story about one of the two dogs, or something?

Yeah, Original Flavor Smiledog has a story about how supposedly if you download the image to your computer, you'll be haunted by eldritch dreams in which the smiling husky-thing tries to convince you that it'll only leave you alone if you pass the image on to other people. Sort of like "The Ring," except I think you don't actually die.

But what freaked me out about Smile.dog was finding not just the picture but some supposedly true story of a woman who was haunted by Smilie in rapid succession around two or three in the morning. The weird thing was that I'd seen it before when it wasn't the middle of the night and went "oh, that's not scary." But 3 AM, alone in the house? Boom. Most terrifying thing I'd seen in ages.

Holy crap the inland empire face it scary! Its horrifying! But I am a minor, but still, there are other minors on this site, and it may scare them. But for some strange, yet hilarious reason, it frequently reminds me of Fred.

Can I just say that the High Octane Nightmare Fuel Music page has the same "the image is way too scary" problem?

Yeah, but that's been settled on. Rubber Johnny is Aphex Twin's most well-known and arguably scariest work (which is saying something).

I'm talking about the image of Aphex smiling with a horribly distorted face. Isn't Rubber Johnny that deformed mass of human flesh, or has the picture been changed? As you may guess, I haven't gone on that page for a while because of it...

Damn, that's one long-ass discussion.

Anyway, no, the current page image isn't High Octane Nightmare Fuel. I'm trying to think of something that would be frightening without shitting the pants for any unwary visitors.

Inland Face wasn't shit your pants scary, but it made me jump.

I would really like Smile Dog (the red, bloody pig version) because it literally made me shiver in fear, but it seems to be too frightening.

Spiders wouldn't work.

...Well...considering this is a page for gathering tropes from media, it would make sense to use something from a popular work while not being shit-your-pants frightening, and I believe Terminator works.

Get rid of that one picture from the spongebob page now, the one that says it's offical and shows a highly detailed picture of Spongebob looking like a meth addict. I'll be wimpering in a corner afraid of my favorite show. Replace it with the other Spongebob Square Pants picture, the one on the main page.

Man, ok, Terminator can be scary, but please, its HONF what we are talking about here. We must put the scariest, most horrifying picture we can find. And obviously, our good old "iron man beta" just isn´t scary enough. I put a picture of a zombie-like hellish little girl, and it was removed the next day. If you can´t stand the horror of the pic, don´t enter, you ARE WARNED that that page isn´t gonna be bunnies and rainbows, but we HAVE TO take the best examples we can to make this trope right and Terminotor just-does-not-do-it.

That's not going to go over well. We've hashed this one out at length and while I don't mind a worse image (even the IE face, though it creeps the fuck out of me), others do.

If Termy isn't enough, I'd still be in favour of doing either a reaction shot or some kind of humourous "This is your brain/This is your brain on HONF. Any questions?" sort of image.

I think my zombie- girl is perfect for this. That of the demon lady isn´t bad either, nor the scary cat on the couch. But my zombie girl is like "Dog Smil", just better, because is that applied to a human 5 years old (or so). I´m sorry if some people can´t stand it but really, you are entering the MOST SCARY trope of ALL, so you can´t blame me if you crap yourself. It HAS to be that way.

Image Links Discussion: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=1swt2luh64vwfw2xylevk9sc&page=1#7

Something that I don't think a lot of people realize when they change the page image is that not all tropers browse this site from the privacy of a home computer. A lot of people browse it on library computers, when they get bored in class, during down-time at work, at various wi-fi hotspots, out in the open on college campuses, and other places open to the general public where the general public will be walking around. Yes, smiledog and its many variants are outright terrifying, but I would not want to accidentally subject some random passer-by to the week of nightmares I had after the first time I saw it. You may be expecting the High Octane Nightmare Fuel page, but the person sitting behind you isn't.

Terminator was ultimately chosen as the image for this page because James Cameron actually got the idea for the scene of the exoskeleton rising out of the flames from a nightmare he had, and because of what The Lucky Star referenced above in this thread. The Terminator is a fairly well-known figure in pop culture, and the image is creepy enough to get the point across without being something that'll terrify whoever catches a glimpse of your screen.

Also, just because you can handle an image doesn't mean other people can. Horror is subjective, and what might not freak you out WILL terrify somebody else to the point that they can't read the page out of fear of the image. And if the image is preventing people from reading the page, it's not doing its job very well.

Please, leave the page image as it is, and put other images on the Image Links page. That's what it's there for.

What about the third version of smile dog? The one that looks like it's shot through a pair of night vision goggles and it's the little girl with creepy eyes and that monsstrous smile? I thought that one was the only image on HONF that was actually scary.

The Inland Empire face was not too scary for me because in Australia we have birthday cards with cats and dogs manipulated the same way.

As the picture is designed solely as a visual reference it should be something actually scary. You know what you're entering when you click the lick to the HONF page and so there should be less consideration on the subject.

Oh my god, I thought I was the only person who found the girl scarier than the dog.

As things stand, though, there's a difference between the page image being scary and actually being unpleasant to look at. The Smile.family are unpleasant for me; they make me feel physically ill when I look at them. Apparently the Inland Empire face has the same visceral effect on other people (although I thought of those birthday cards when I saw it, too!)

You never know what's going to have that Brown Note effect on an individual. We don't really want the page actually scaring people away. Hell, I don't go to check up on it half as much as I used to because I don't want to see that goddamn dog. I agree with what someone said up-thread - if a picture is actual honest-to-God High Octane Nightmare Fuel, that disqualifies it immediately, because it will stop people from wanting to visit the page.

Hey, anybody else notice that we've now got this nifty button that will present some poor soul with a random page?

Let's go with a rule-of-thumb against page images here being actual HONF because that pretty much ensures that, short of figuring out a way to ensure that 'random' button never produces any of the HONF pages, there is no way to ensure visits are voluntary.

I know some people want the High Octane Nightmare Fuel page "mascot picture" to be the truest representative of the Trope but one should take in consideration what they are actually aiming for and if it's the will of the people not just your own personal taste.If you are going for something that will completely gross out of freak people out to see how they'll react then you're not looking out for the best interest of the Trope at all and should reconsider. The Terminator image is fine. It gets the idea across while being worksafe and isn't going to send people scrambling to hit the back button. Save the real nasty stuff for the entries.

Canjul, PLEASE don't use retarded as an insult. It offends me.

There is yet another Smile Dog picture that is somehow not on this site. I think it's really called Go To Sleep or Jeff The Serial Killer or something. It looks like a little girl with a huge white head and some dark hair, the face is long like a dog's and pure smooth white with nothing on it but souless eyes and a very creepy somewhat large grin. It looks like Michael Jackson and Mr Noseybonk had a daughter! I don't know why I'm the only fan of it on this site.

Damn. I just saw that (called "Jeff the Killer") on a "weird art" blog or something. Scary as fuck, but I don't know if it's part of the smile.family...

Here's the page. Add whatever you like to it, but there better be at least something there the next I click on it.

Alright, I added some pics. Obviously Your Mileage May Vary extremely here, but hey, it's a very subjective trope.

May I just ask what the pic from Animation Age Ghetto doing on that page? I just...don't understand how it's at all related.

Because that kid's grin makes Smile Dog look like a Care Bear...

Ummm... YMMV. I don't think anyone besides you finds that very scary. I'm not assuming everyone thinks the same as me, but it just seems so... funny.

I'm just going to bust out the age-old justification here and say Your Mileage May Vary.

Seriously, though, it's an extremely subjective trope; what I think is scary, you might find hilarious or endearing, and/or vice versa.

Now, as for what HONF is; the way I see it and from what I am led to believe, HONF is something that was intended to be scary and succeeded, though perhaps a little too well in some cases. Generally, HONF comes from media that is targeted towards adults, but this is not always the case. Sometimes, HONF can come in the form of something that's intended for children, younger folks or even all ages, but nonetheless manages to scare the crap out of adults as well.

Ocarina Of Time is a good example here - for the most part, it's suitable for all audiences, but is notably darker and more mature in some parts. The prime example here would be the Shadow Temple. The Shadow Temple is, to put it bluntly, horrible. It's some sort of shady dungeon or torture chamber buried deep under a creepy old well, supposedly used to imprison and torture royal prisoners and wrongdoers. Creepy enough alone, right? Then you enter it and find that, not only does it have a grim and ominous atmosphere, it's full of undead horrors (Dead Hands, Dead Hands!), psychological tricks and traps (e.g. walls that aren't really there), self-active guillotine blades and a boss that's essentially a pair of dismembered floating hands and a glaring red eyeball. You may feel differently, but I don't think that's in any way suitable for children or people of any sort of nervous disposition. Heck, I've heard of grown men (and older teens like myself) that get the major jibblies every time they even think of that sinister abode of eldritch horror. The Forest Temple is almost as bad, what with it being a haunted house of sorts in the middle of a forest labyrinth. It also has Phantom Ganon as its boss. Then we have Majoras Mask, which takes the former game and makes it even moreso Darker And Edgier - a possesed scarecrow child, masks containing the souls of the dead, evil mummy father, a dark valley haunted by undead monsters, potentially terrifying bosses and a decidedly apocalyptic plot, not to mention the other, perhaps more subtle elements of horror and creepiness to behold.

There are plenty of games that work like that, games that are supposedly suitable for all audiences, yet still manage to terrify and/or creep out kids and adults alike. Look at Giygas from Earthbound and say you can't imagine even the adult players getting the chills from it. Even some of the Pokemon are noticeably macabre or sinister - Haunter is a phantom stalker, Banette is a sentient toy with decidedly malevolent intentions, Cubone wears the skull of its dead mother as a helmet, Shedinja can steal your soul if you look at the hole on its back, Dusknoir is pretty much the Grim Reaper of the Pokeverse...the list goes on.

What you're talking about - the Halloween specials for kids' shows - would be Defanged Horrors: they're meant to be a little bit spooky and maybe a tad scary, but not so much that it causes any real harm or repulsion from the kiddies watching it. Stuff like the Spongebob Halloween episode doesn't count because it's not really intended to be genuinely scary, it just has a spooky theme to fit with the Halloween motif. Then on the other hand, you have stuff like Courage The Cowardly Dog or Flapjack which are intended to be scary, or at the least very disturbing. In this case the horror can be so extreme that even the grown-ups watching it can get the jibblibes or do a double-take at whatever monstrous abomination shows up on the television; it can also work as a sort of meta-example, with parents and grown-ups wondering in horror why the network execs thought it would be a good idea to show that kind of Nightmare Fuel to kids.

In short - not everything on HONF is necessarily targeted towards adults alone, but the fear factor that it produces can be terrifying enough to scare even the adults.

No, Spongebob battle for bikini bottom video game's rock bottom music was intended to be horrifying, as it is a place in a deep bottom where monsters live, but the music is even scarier than stuff like Exorcist's theme or Halloween. Should Spongebob have an HONF page for stuff like that? And Mario has things like Boos, that horrifying music in river twyx from Super Paper Mario, and if what you said is true. Kirby DEFINITLY needs a HONF page due to that giant eyeball Zero who follows him everywhere.

Oh, Rock Bottom. I get what you mean now.

Well, again, Your Mileage May Vary. Rock Bottom is pretty creepy, and it's obviously intended to be so; is it scary enough to scare the adults, though? I remember watching that episode in the cartoon years ago, and to be honest, I wasn't all that disturbed by it. I have never played the game, though. If you have a sample of the music so I could get a feeling for what you mean, that would be nice.

As for Mario: Boos are quite clearly Defanged Horrors. They can be somewhat chilling - Big Boos Haunt used to give me the creeps as a young'n - but they're too cute and endearing for the most part to be High Octane material. As for the music in the River Twygz, yes, it's bizarre and creepy, but whether or not it's High Octane material is something that will vary greatly from person to person. Kirby is generally a fun and cutesy Sugar Bowl series, though I do agree that 02 is a rather grim and macabre final boss for an otherwise fairly kid-friendly game.

If you really think they belong there, put them on their respective page: the Video Games section. Remember that it's generally accepted that for an entry to warrant its own seperate page, it must have at least somewhere between five and ten examples.

Here it is. Personaly I found that MUCH more scarier than any thing Zelda had. And Luigi's Mansion itself had more than 5 examples. But I don't know how to MAKE a page. Im still a n00bie. And if you believe the fact that River twyx has the devil scatting in it, I believe it can be upped to HONF.

And giygas I found was not even half as scary as Silent Hill Shattered Memory's cover. Yeah, it DOES scare nearly half the internet, but remember most of the people rarely go on the internet and if they do, its mostly facebook or myspace to chat with friends not Youtube, wikipedia, forums, or Tvtropes. Al least thats what its like in my state.

Your. Mileage. May. Vary. Just because you didn't fid it scary doesn't mean it isn't. Most people who've played Earthbound will remember Giygas as a twisted, distorted, vaguely sentient Cosmic Horror who seems to be trapped in a perpetual state of pain, screaming for all eternity in unending anguish and uttering cryptic, garbled messages. If you know the story of the first Mother game (AKA Earthbound Zero) and believe Giygas and the Big Bad from that game are one and the same, then an extra level of horror is added as you realise that Giygas used to be an alien child who loved his surrogate mother and went insane when she was no longer in his life. Then there's the giant "fetus" shapes in the background. You are, in essence, fighting the tortured soul of a sad, crying child who just wants his mommy back. In general, Cosmic Horrors are scary - they're eldritch beings beyond even the slightest notion of mortal comprehension, most often ultra-powerful beings who possess the innate power to destroy entire worlds if they want to. In the case of Azathoth and Giygas, they also happen to be insane subconcious entities, utterly impossible to understand, who could and would wipe out creation if they became aware of themselves. The fact that Giygas is - and, if Buzz Buzz is to believed, has in the future - trying to bring about The End Of The World As We Know It and, as mentioned, is little more than a super-powerful and very unhappy being with a child-like mentality, ventures firmly into "adult fear" category.

Then I guess your milage can vary for Spongebob, Mario, and Kirby since I really found those 2 scarier than anything from Zelda and Pokemon. That R Ock Bottom music creeps me out to the bone, something Giygas actually never did to me, Luigi's Mansion's final boss turns his head upside down like the Exorcist! And Kirby's 02 adtually spouts blood from his Eye. I believe thats HONF isnt it?

That depends. Add them to the Video Games section if you want, we'll see what other folks think. If they get removed, leave it.

But what if people want to remove the Zelda and Pokemon? Because I sure do, and I'm pretty sure alot of other people do too.

That is not your prerogative. If you want to keep whining about it, take it to the forums and see how it turns out.

There have been discussions on this before. They stay.

You guys are still arguing? All right, screw it. I should have done this a long time ago.

High Octane Nightmare Fuel has been redefined. Under the new definition, anything that was specifically intended to be scary, to anyone for any reason, counts. The only reason we're having this stupid argument in the first place is because of the needlessly specific criteria, so away it goes. Happy now?

I think High Octane Nightmare Fuel was fine the way it was. I think stuff like Pokemon/Zelda/scary episodes of kids television (scary, but not SO scary) shows is meant for Defanged Horrors, a page already pretty ignored and could become an index for stuff like that.

YES YES PERFECT! PUT IT IN DEFANGED HORRORS never knew it existed. but still, INTO DEFANGED HORRORS, now all we have to do is make and index for it like the nightmare fuel stuff, and remove them from High Octane Nightmare fuel. I think thats a great idea. If theres any flaws in that idea, can you please point it out? Cuz I see none

LMAO, and harry potters quote is already on that page. So the HONF harry potter should be turned into defanged horror harry potter

Defanged Horrors is Kiddy Horror, scares in a controlled environment so I suppose all the stuff we're arguing about could fit there.

The way I see it:

Nightmare Fuel: Unintentionally scary things for children/family audiences. Defanged Horrors: Intentionally scary things for children/family audiences (but not so scary). High Octane Nightmare Fuel: Intentionally scary things for adults.

So I say revert HONF to it's original definition. Anything specifically intended for children like Pokemon does not belong. Adults may enjoy Pokemon, but it is not intended for them see What Do You Mean Its For Kids. The Legend of Zelda franchise is not specifically intended for children (more like a general audience) so it's okay for some crossover.

I'm going to have to agree with Mega J on this one. I've always seen Zelda as a series that's aimed towards a generalised demograph, or otherwise depending on the specific game. To be honest, I wasn't too sure either as to whether or not Pokemon Mystery Dungeon belonged under HONF, I was just going along with the results of the debates regarding the matter. Ho hum.

Why not just take it to Trope Talk or the Trope Repair Shop and see what our fellow tropers think of the matter? I hadn't intended for it to dissolve into an argument, I was just trying to explain why they're where they are and why it seems to be general concensus to keep it that way.

Leoganado...if I may ask, why is this such a Berserk Button for you? I seem to recall Supermariofan being banned for constantly editing/removing the Pokemon Mystery Dungeon section. If you want to have your opinion heard, don't shout and complain and stamp your feet in the discussion page of an article; post your feeling and suggestions on the forum and see what others think. I understand where you're coming from, but you'd probably have more of a chance of being listened to if you do things sensibly and diplomatically.

Well, Supermariofan WAS my sister, so naturally we have MOSTLY the same opinions. Not on everything though. The difference between her ane me, is that I dont go into action right away, and she just started blanking pages. We're both new to the tvtropes anyways. For the berserk button, my classmates and other people on the internet are calling ME wimps because I'm scared of like TRULY scary movies like the exorcist, and that resident evil, and silent hill are not scary in the slightest. Of course, Zelda, and Pokemon can't even SCARE ME. which is getting kind of ridiculous anyways. Also, I seriously can't think of anyone in the planet who is genionely scared of Pokemon, or Zelda. They're more exaggrating, and make them scary COMPARED to the OTHER POKEMON games. Not in a general maner, but just compared to other pokemon games.

Well, that's understandable. Each to their own and all that.

Still, as I've said, just because you are unphased by them doesn't mean nobody is. I, for one, am terrified of Silent Hill and Resident Evil, and there are plenty of parts in Zelda games that genuinely freak me out.

If you're new to TV Tropes, might I humbly suggest that you stick around for a while and learn how things are done before rashly demanding that things be removed to satisfy your personal opinion? I'm not trying to be rude or callous here. I'm just trying to help you enjoy yourself here.

Yeah, so am I, and people are still saying I'm a huge coward. Don't you HATE people like that? Btw, if you really want to see horror, the scareist video game series of all time, even the people who DON"T think silent hill and resident evil are scary, is Fatal Frame. The reaction to that game are almost unanimous

Fatal Frame is decent but if you really want to scare the balls off your pool table, play the System Shock games. Never before and never since playing those have I been so terrified. That includes Silent Hill, Fatal Frame, Kuon, Haunting Ground, Doom...

I think one problem you had Leoganado was that you were regarding your opinion higher than everyone else's. If a lot of people considered those parts of the Zelda games scary why should it be taken down because you didn't have the same reaction and likely wise why should your additions be valid if they're scary to you but not to a considerable enough amount of people. For example someone who's afraid of slime (blennophobia) can't deem scenes from Danny Phantom worthy because it has ectoplasm in a ooze form, since not many people find that scary. But at least you didn't try to force your opinion or view onto everyone like your sister.

Which ones were Nothing Is Scarier? W Hat were they?

A truly effective technique at horror is to leave the result up to the viewer's imagination, hence the reference to Nothing Is Scarier. However, what I'm looking for is thoughts on whether or not the things behind the links should be left to the viewer's imagination, or if we should prevent people asking constantly for someone to take the Schmuck Bait by encouraging the linking editor to provide a description in spoiler tags.

No they shouldn't, we don't want to give our readers nightmares. Thats why the images were changed to just the terminator. but what were the scary things you saw per say?

This is a bit late, but I think there should be a greater degree of disclosure on offsite links as well. I'd be happy to go through and systematically click each link, find out what's behind it, and then post that, but I only have so much time and I do have other obligations. Can any of my fellow nightmare fetishists volunteer to help out on what's already there, and can we agree that future links should be accompanied by thorough, detailed, informative (you know...helpful) descriptions? Doesn't have to be a dissertation but people should be given a clear idea of what awaits them.

Also late, but yeah, I'd appreciate it if we'd get more than just a link and a vague description for this stuff. Just having a link and vagueness is definitely Schmuck Bait, and since Tropers are naturally curious... Well, see the whole argument on using the Terminator as the page image; you really can't unsee this stuff. I think a lot of people would appreciate a warning of what they're getting into.

When people start with the dramatic posts in HONF(Oh God, the eyes, Oh God) it doesn't really add to the post that's going to convince others that it's a worthwhile post. Those type of things should be left for the discussion pages and leave to other Tropers to decide it their suggestion is actually worthwhile.

What I mean is I was wondering "What happened to the Spongebob Square Pants Examples, they were scary enough?" Only for me to find it had a High Octane Nightmare Fuel page. I clicked on it, half expecting to see Moars Krabs or Gary's "pal". Instead I see this highly realistic picture of Spongebob himself as though he was on meth. It scared me out of my wits, even more than the Perfect Trumpet Thingy from Courage The Cowardly Dog or Giygas did. Can we please keep the light floaty picture on the main page, the other thing haunts my dreams. This is a hundred times worse than the Inland Empire Face.

Actually, no. There isn't an age restriction on High Octane Nightmare Fuel. If it was supposed to be scary and did its job a little too well, then it qualifies as HONF, so Spongebob having a HONF page is perfectly acceptable.

Oh. Thank you for clarifying that for me.

Defanged Horrors requires that it gets less scary as you get older. Some of the stuff listed as Accidental Nightmare Fuel or High Octane Nightmare Fuel in Sponge Bob might go on Defanged Horrors, but I think some of it should stay as Accidental Nightmare Fuel / High Octane Nightmare Fuel.

So, you want it changed to something more scarier? OK!

You're an idiot.

Out of curiosity, what was the piano-teethed baby thing? Smilegirl?

And Methbob Crackpants isn't intentionally scary? :V

Or Moar Krabs or Procrastination?

I don't know. You'd have to go the forums for that sort of thing.

Lemme try something. And hope I don't break the entire site.

Ok, figured out how to do it. Just need to ask if I can.

I don't get it. How come the Index for the Real Life section works but the others aren't? I'm trying to figure out what went possibly wrong with the other indexes...

That is actually the whole point

Unfortunately people being rude on the internet is as old as the internet itself.

No, the distinction is that High Octane Nightmare Fuel is intentional, while Accidental Nightmare Fuel is unintentional.

In much the same way that, before entering onto an especially tumultuous amusement park ride, there are signs that warn you about the possibilities of nausea, high speeds, and large drops and falls. You may be prepared for the ride or image itself, but there are people who won't be prepared at all - they might be too young to realize how disturbing the pics might be, they can't fully comprehend the picture's horror without seeing it, or they might not really want to view the image at all and are only doing it because they think they're brave enough.

In addition, without descriptions you don't have a good idea about what you're getting into. A simple link cannot convey how horrifying the image is - spoiling the depictions would probably be the best idea.

The index for the HONF pages are set incorrectly - they should be set to "Sub-page".

Link to some of those pages, please?

Here's the one I remember off the top of my head. It had the most of the red tabs.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/HighOctaneNightmareFuel/UminekoNoNakuKoroNi

Fixed that one. To change it, click "tools", then "set page type."

Since This Troper, apparently.

We all do, my friend.

But it's about the effects as well as the intent. It's about success with intent, not just intent.

At least give it some image. Maybe a poorly drawn cartoon picture of smile.JPG red version that looks humorous and silly, with the caption saying something about the photo version being something you never wanna run into...?

Try this.

They've also got a Jeff The Killer one, if you want it...

I would say yes to the first one. And yes, if someone put something under HONF without it being intentional, by all means move it. By this point, though, there should (hopefully) be very few of those left.

Well, some people may find extreme violence/gore to be very unnerving.

Yes, but if we're going to categorize it under stuff that's supposed to be scary, then it's running the trope further int the ground. Like I said, there's Nausea Fuel for that.