Linking to a past Trope Repair Shop thread that dealt with this page: New crowner 01/06/12
, started by Discar on Mar 2nd 2011 at 10:03:30 PM
Welcome, traveller, welcome to Omsk
Removed this from the Fanfiction section:
- Fanfics tend to have a lot of these.
Firstly, we're not supposed to do blanket examples for entire media. Secondly, they're not that much of a recurring feature (I've seen far more Heroic Sociopaths in webcomics than in fanfiction.) Thirdly, the pothole to Draco in Leather Pants is pretty pointless, since the two tropes don't necessarily overlap.
It does not matter who I am. What matters is, who will you become? - motto of Omsk Bird
Azor Ahai
So, I think that Revy from Black Lagoon should be added back in. The description talks about the "evil character being used for good", and over time, that seems to be Revy's role- there's this quote in a recentish chapter where she compares herself to a bullet and Rock (the Token Good Teammate) to the one firing the gun.
Revy starts out more purely villainous, but through Character Development, she's a legitimate Heroic Sociopath and an Anti-Hero *
Hodor Hide / Show Replies
My Namesakes
Kersey475: Is it just me or is Heroic Sociopath undergoing massive Trope Decay? The original meaning is an over-the-top Anti-Hero Played for Laughs, but instead tropers are adding any over-the-top Anti-Hero (even serious ones like Rorschach).
"Think like a man of action, act like a man of thinking, and don't be a dumbass." Hide / Show Replies
But you do agree that this trope is undergoing massive Trope Decay.
"Think like a man of action, act like a man of thinking, and don't be a dumbass."
Jumping up from the discussion I accidentally started on the bottom...
This trope has undergone trope decay, at least for a while there, but I think it would make more sense to clean up the description a bit rather than just give in. I mean, its not that complicated: "Bad guy does bad things that are Played for Laughs, while fighting for the good guys." If he's fighting for the bad guys, its Evilly Affable.
It might me be a good idea to empasize that heroic sociopath can be found in more than just comedy series. In my opinion Alucard seems like he makes the list but I'm not so sure about Haruhi Suzumiya.
I honestly don't see much trouble with the description. What I get from the title is "sociopath who incidentally has heroic goals", and the description mostly reflects that.
Still, most of the blue links aren't very helpful and they hurt my eyes. Plus there's some redundancy so I tried to fix that up a bit. By all means engage in some Wiki Magic if you think I screwed this up in some way, but try to keep things going in the direction away from Trope Decay.
See you in the discussion pages.
The way this definition reads, it basically says that the Heroic Sociopath is a Complete Monster who Crosses the Line Twice and is still on the side of good.
We should add something to the definition which says that a character doesn't need to be completely evil in order to qualify for this trope (needs to be at least a Type IV on the Sliding Scale Of Antiheroes in order to qualify though) and can still have standards and Pet the Dog moments.
"Think like a man of action, act like a man of thinking, and don't be a dumbass."
In fact lloyd is a perfect example of sociopath and is True Neutral at worst.
Edited by cclospina
Which just shows you how much the popular portrayal differs from the reality.
Which just further goes to show, YMMV on several issues, but I do agree it is getting a bit ridiculous. The only thing I can't find out is why any over-the-top Anti-Hero gets this page. Seriously.
Is there a way to define it down to a smooth, definitive definition, that works well, to eliminate some of the more egregious examples? Just curious, is all.
If life gives you lemons, make grape juice, and sit back, while the world wonders how you made it.
For now, I think I'll just avoid the Heroic Sociopath trope entry altogether. The Trope Decay seems beyond repair.
"Think like a man of action, act like a man of thinking, and don't be a dumbass."
It seems most people who wish to imply the original meaning of this sort of character link to "Comedic Sociopath," redirecting to "Comedic Sociopathy" instead. Maybe we should change the title of the trope to "Comedic Sociopath?" I mean, am I mistaken in assuming that the original meaning of this trope is the anti-heroic counterpart to "the Ace?" Meaning, where the Ace has his awesomeness and day-saving exaggerated extremely and then played for laughs, the Heroic Sociopath has his sociopathy and anti-heroic quantities exaggerated to the extreme and played for laughs.
Edited by GentlemanCambrioleur
A sociopathic protagonist in a straight-up comedy is an Unsympathetic Comedy Protagonist
I disagree. An Unsympathetic Comedy Protagonist isn't always a Heroic Sociopath and vice versa. A Heroic Sociopath is funny BECAUSE he's so blatantly over-the-top, while the Unsympathetic Comedy Protagonist is funny, but not the source of his funny isn't always because he's such a jerk.
Edited by GentlemanCambrioleur
I saw tons of examples were removed earlier, and I think a lot of them are good examples. I would agree with getting rid of Chiri from Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei- she's definitely a comedic sociopath but rarely a heroic one. However, most of the other examples are gleefully evil people who are on the side of good- they are what the trope is about.
Hodor
But the audience is gleeful with them. It's not a one-sided relationship; we get as much enjoyment out of their antics as they do themselves. There's a BIG difference between a Heroic Sociopath and a Type V anti-hero who grins a lot.
The name of this particular trope doesn't seem to fit the description of it entirely. While it is true that Heroic Sociopaths can often be played for laughs, what about Heroic Sociopaths that AREN'T comedic. By this I mean a person in fiction that is completely insane, likes to kill and cause destruction, is NOT funny, (most characters are comedic on occasion, This only counts if they are not frequently funny THEMSELVES, not the media they are in in general) but still does heroic things most of the time despite, or possibly because of their insanity. Here's an live TV example in this very troupe page: •Dexter Morgan from Dexter a serial killer with a code, and a realistic superhero.
I just figured this trope was about just what the laconic definition said it was: An Anti-Hero who enjoys his job a little too much. You know, maybe the hero character is heroic, and they ultimately fight for a good cause, but the antihero will be a Combat Pragmatist; the Heroic Sociopath would be a Combat Pragmatist Blood Knight who Loves the Sound of Screaming and takes a morbid sadistic pleasure in slaughtering innocent people the bad guys!
I also noticed that this trope is supposedly the Evil Counterpart to The Ace; I don't see how that is, because I didn't think the Heroic Sociopath needed to be exceptionally good at whatever he does; he just needs to have fun running around with that chainsaw *
Edited by Stoogebie
You know the description makes this trope seem more like a sub trope of Villain Protagonist than an Antihero
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"he Heroic Sociopath is distinct from the Villain Protagonist: The Villain Protagonist is an evil character fighting for evil goals, while the Heroic Sociopath is an Sociopath character fighting for good goals"
K Sonic: The two tropes are different, but they can be similar (and even overlap). One example is if the Heroic Sociopath was a very warm and friendly person who just so happened to enjoy engaging in physical fights almost to the point of a Fetish. A Villain Protagonist is clearly the bad guy, and not usually even Affably Evil. (My example was rather specific, but it's one scenario).
because they were removed Alucard, Revy, Mugen, Mayuri, Akabane, Rina inverse, Xellos, Hit girl, November 11 and Youichi Hiruma?
•All of them are played for laughs.(Especially revy)
Removed:
- Most Mel Gibson films: From Mad Max, Braveheart, The Patriot, Payback to Edge Of Darkness. Take your pick.
- Considering his most famous role was considered a "Lethal Weapon" by the police force...
None of these characters work. These are all, at worst, antiheroes. The Payback character might be considered "evil," but he's not heroic.
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Out of curiosity, if Heroic Sociopath is only Played for Laughs, what do you call it when one of the Good Guys(TM) shows some definite unhinged tendencies and it's NOT played for laughs (as a for-example, let's say, gunning down bad guys with a machine gun while singing a song. He's not a bad guy because he is only inclined to let loose on the bad guys, following the orders of the good guys. He's not really a traditional hero either in that he genuinely enjoys doing horrible things (to bad people, granted), and has some definite bloodlust going on. Am I just thinking of a type of Blood Knight?
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That's an anti-hero of some kind, definitely a blood knight and definitely sociopathic, but not this trope. Heroic Sociopaths are strictly played for laughs and the trope name is NOT self-explanatory.
Edited by ading
[-SophisticatedAsHell-]
(no consensus for a page image, but check out Image Links: Heroic Sociopath)
Becky: Who are you? The Mysterious Stranger: An angel. Huck: What's your name? The Mysterious Stranger: Satan.
I'm not so sure Scud from Scud The Disposable Assassin belongs here. Yeah, he kills people to stay alive, but his targets are always shown to be horrible people. When Drywall was gunned down in front of him, his first instinct was to shout "You bastard! He was just a kid!" at the assailant. Later, when he encounters Voo-Doo Ben's kind, helpful, good-hearted assistant, he's horrified when Ben sacrifices her. During "The Yellow Horseman" story arc, he goes out of his way and puts himself at great personal risk to help save a civilization from destruction, never asking for anything in return and not taking any especially sadistic pleasure from his actions.
And his relationship with Jeff, the monster he tries to keep alive, is a bit more complex than just that. When Jeff first comes back into his life, he realizes why she has every reason to be pissed at him, and even tries to make amends. When Jeff lies dying issues later, Scud actually comforts her in her (and, by extension, his) last moments, cradling her head and promising to stay by her and "die with her".
Pretty much the darkest he gets is when he tries to destroy the world, but I think some extenuating circumstances come into play here, given that he's in the middle of his heroicBSOD, Driven to Suicide, and has spent the majority of his life in a Crapsack World.
I know he's not exactly a conventional hero, but I feel like the character is more complex than just "kills people for money and giggles."
"The Karma Houdini is a natural part of their being"
I'm not sure about this, because many of the examples end up dead.
Examples: Alexander anderson, yumie, Barry the chopper, Greed, November 11, Akira Fudo, Mello, Lelouch, Marv, Rorschach, Comedian, Ares, Most of the bastards, Big Daddy, Sweeney Todd, Grom Hellscream
replacement to belkar with rorschach, Because rorschach is most heroic and most Sociopath that Belkar.
Edited by cclospina Hide / Show Replies
I changed it back to Belkar, but I'm not necessarily adverse to it being Rorschach if others prefer him. Rorschach may be more heroic and more of a sociopath, but he's not more of a Heroic Sociopath. As noted in the example itself, he's kind of a weird case since he thinks of himself as The Cape/the last good man in a bad world. His behavior is quite like that of the Heroic Sociopath, but it makes him a questionable example, because it's difficult to call him gleefully wicked, since in his (twisted) mind, he thinks he's the good guy.
Long story short, I'd keep Belkar as the image, not only because he's been there for a long time, but because he better embodies the trope.
Hodor
Insane Psychopath!
By the way; changed the Chiri entry to clear up something; what Chiri goes through is character development; she was shown slowly developing into sociopathy [whether comedic or heroic is up for debate], over the course of the series. Derailment would occur if it was just spontaneously added in, or as the author just decided to do it on a whim, though there are examples of development going into derailment; however, the way it goes, it's going into the 'bad' route of development, showing Chiri going into a more sociopathic area.
In that way, it isn't derailment, but development; also, as a note, don't generalize during the example; Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei does have subtle character development over the series. Just because you cannot see it means it needs to belong on the page. Whether it's derailment is up for debate, but generalizing like that is still rather uncalled for.
Sorry for this, but I'm just making it clear what the intentions and such were. Feel free to discuss it with me here if you like; I'm just giving you a heads up that, generally speaking, that type of generalization doesn't belong on Trope Pages.
If life gives you lemons, make grape juice, and sit back, while the world wonders how you made it.
"Due to Trope Decay, this now refers to any Anti Hero who is Sociopath, Indifferent if it is Played For Laughs or not. "
Shouldn't we be cleaning up the examples and making it more clear, rather than simply accepting Trope Decay? The decayed version of this trope is basically Anti-Hero.
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Join the discussion above (second discussion from the top). This troper thinks that cleanup would be near-impossible due to the sheer amount of tropes already on this page.
BTW, do you agree that this page is undergoing trope decay? (Original Definition: Over-the-top Anti-Hero Played for Laughs Trope Decay definition: Any over-the-top Anti-Hero who is a sociopath regardless of whether or not it's Played for Laughs or not)
"Think like a man of action, act like a man of thinking, and don't be a dumbass."
The Nineties anti hero seems like a Deconstruction of the Badass and Token evil and a Heroic Sociopath seems like a Reconstruction which basically says it's alright as long as you don' take it out of context.
-Remove to revy and to balaika, Because really they are villains, not Heroic Sociopath.
Edited by cclospina
Ling on Ali Mc Beal (somebody locked the page so I can't add the example)
Linking to a past Trope Repair Shop thread that dealt with this page: Here we go again- what to do about all the unexplained cuts?
, started by Jordan on Jan 2nd 2011 at 6:46:55 AM
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman