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Jarkes
topic
03:58:59 PM Aug 7th 2013
Didn't there used to be a Guide Dang It page for when the actual guides screwed something up? What happened to that?
Boksha
topic
07:09:42 AM Jul 17th 2012
So... why exactly isn't this a YMMV trope? I got here because the Etrian Odyssey article had an angry and very long rant about some floors being examples of this, in spite of the fact that I did in fact finish those floors without a guide. (one of the problems is clearly intended to be solved logically, another is apparently intended to be brute-forced, which can actually be done in reasonable time) That's hardly the only example I've seen though; many people have been complaining about games they felt didn't give any hints for problems where I saw hints gallore to the point where I actually felt bored the game forced me to watch those hints when I actually wanted to act on them already. Clearly this is something that's different for everybody, and as such I feel this shouldn't go on any game's main page. We have YMMV pages for that.
MrDeath
09:14:23 AM Jul 17th 2012
edited by MrDeath
As I understand it, it's not YMMV because it's sort of quantifiable. If there's a puzzle or a challenge that has no in-game indication for how it's solved or passed, it qualifies.
homogenized
topic
09:23:52 PM Jun 13th 2012
Would things that the player is given no hint as to existing but can be quite easily found simply by exploring an area count?

Things like:

  • The player going down a path, coming to a fork, and their helper telling them they need to go left; but if they ignore/get ahead of him and go right instead they get a bonus item.
  • The player entering a large room with an obvious door on the opposite end that opens after defeating all the enemies, but there's another, not-obvious-but-not-hidden door on the side that opens if you get close to it that leads to a bonus item.
Parnifia
topic
03:15:56 PM Jan 8th 2012
In my opinion, all of this wrangling over whether a solution has to be "impossible" to figure out is kind of pointless, since A.) it can't be literally impossible and B.) if it was impossible to figure out, then how would anyone make a guide explaining it? Unless, of course, there's an official guide released by the game's publisher.
MrDeath
07:56:53 AM Jan 9th 2012
It's not that it's "impossible" to figure out, it's that the game doesn't give you any prior hints or indication of what the solution is.

Think of it like mathematics equations. A simple puzzle (lever pulling, let's say) is 1+1 = 2. Simple, logical, you should be able to figure it out without any outside input.

A more complicated puzzle (a sliding block/platforming puzzle) might be to solve something like 2x+17 = 25. The normal elements of gameplay are there, and there's an in-game hint as to what the right path is.

Guide Dang It is as if you were given the equation 25x-17y+2z = ?? and told to solve for X. You're missing that hint that makes it possible to solve just by looking at it, and the only way to find the "right" answer is to brute force it to find whatever the game's looking for, without any usable context or guide.
Parnifia
01:12:06 PM Jan 9th 2012
But that's what I was saying. You, in effect, just elaborated on what I already said. I was also pointing out that SOMEONE has to figure it out in order to create a guide/walkthrough.
Parnifia
01:15:24 PM Jan 9th 2012
By the way, I happen to be taking a college-level math course (Alg. 3/Trig. Honors, to be precise) while in high school, so I DO know a thing or two about algebra, and the final problem you gave IS impossible. Not the best analogy.
MrDeath
01:20:00 PM Jan 9th 2012
edited by MrDeath
It's not about it being completely impossible to figure out. It's about the game giving you no hints or information that will help you figure it out—you have to guess blindly if you don't have a guide.

It's the difference between just plugging in every integer for X in my third example and the second example where you have all the clues you need right there, in the puzzle, to figure it out.

Edit: I know the third problem is impossible; that was the point. It doesn't give you enough information to solve on its own; in this case, the "guide" would be the values of Y, Z, and the ?? that give you the "right" value of X.
Parnifia
01:28:49 PM Jan 10th 2012
edited by Parnifia
You know what-this is becoming a REALLY stupid and redundant thread. I'm pretty sure we both have the same point, it's just that we're phrasing it differently and confusing each other.
Aradials
topic
08:54:23 AM Aug 30th 2011
I don't suppose we could change the picture back to the original one? It was funnier, and made more sense then the one we have now.
Scardoll
02:24:58 PM Dec 13th 2011
edited by Scardoll
Agreed. The new one is all text and the actual visuals in the picture has nothing to do with this trope.

There was an image picking thread for the new image, but no image is better than what is up there right now.
Kevonni4
topic
07:11:57 PM May 21st 2011
I think that the definition should be that the action required is counterintuitive and there was no easy way to figure it out except through trial and error and even that would be hard. By that definition, the Sonic 3 example is not one because it could be discovered very quickly just by playing with the controller. There are others that are weak because it would be very easy to discover just by experimentation.
SomeNewGuy
topic
06:36:50 PM Nov 25th 2010
What the hell? I've twice now edited the Star Ocean 1 entry, but its not showing up.
68.226.211.156
topic
05:26:06 PM Nov 19th 2010
The Monster Hunter Series is an example of this Trope.

Will someone add this to JRPG section of Guide Dang it
Azukar
topic
04:54:01 AM Nov 16th 2010
Rather than splitting JRP Gs arbitrarily in half, maybe pull out the Final Fantasy and Pokemon sections and rename JRPG as "other JRPG"? Would that make the section small enough?

Also I agree with Chad M in that a lot of these examples are not Guide Dang It.
SomeGuy
08:43:15 AM Nov 16th 2010
Your proposals are reasonable. Feel free to reassemble the folders and delete any Not an Example examples you see.
Twilightdusk
topic
03:58:13 PM May 22nd 2010
The "Other" Category needs to be cleaned up a bit I think. I'm not familiar enough with most of the titles mentioned to do anything myself but I get the feeling that at least some of them belong under other categories.
Amppelix
06:52:24 AM Nov 6th 2010
ALL the categories need cleaning up. What is Mario Galaxy doing in "Adventure"?
TheomanZero
11:45:08 AM Apr 27th 2011
I'm pretty sure we need a "Platformer" section The genre is currently divided between "Action", "Adventure", and "Other".
TheomanZero
11:32:19 PM Apr 29th 2011
Okay, I've tried to clean things up a bit, at least for the games I'm familiar with.
Galeros
05:59:14 PM Jan 16th 2012
Can I create a page for Survival Horror? I see games like Silent Hill under the "Action" page.
128.223.32.10
topic
08:59:38 PM Mar 8th 2010
edited by FunstuffofDoom
Funstuffof Doom: Is it just me, or do we have way too many justifying edits on this page? Seriously, folks, if it's not a good example, don't explain how it doesn't fit, just remove it.
arromdee
08:23:43 AM Mar 9th 2010
arromdee: This is inevitable because Guide Dang It is really a subjective trope despite not looking like one. Something can have a solution, yet other people might not be able to figure it out without a guide.

The alternatives are:
  1. actually delete it, in which case someone who falls in the first camp will add it again, someone in the second will delete it again, etc... or
  2. Be very strict and say that something must be absolutely impossible to discover by any means other than chance in order to count as a Guide Dang It. This may technically fit the trope description, but I don't think it's a good idea.
billybobfred
09:18:18 AM Mar 31st 2010
I thought the definition of Guide Dang It was "puzzle with absolutely no in-game hints, none, zero, nada" and, thusly, even one iota of a clue in the game disqualified an example.

So, uh, basically I thought we were doing #2 from the very beginning.
arromdee
12:25:26 PM Mar 31st 2010
Well, the first paragraph says:

a Guide Dang It is any part of a video game in which that correct action or set of actions is so difficult to figure out from the game's own clues that, effectively, the only way to know what to do (aside from spending countless hours of trying every remote possibility until something happens) is via a Strategy Guide or an online Walkthrough

So difficult to figure out from the clues implies that there are clues, just not clues that are very useful.
ChadM
10:33:57 PM Aug 14th 2010
Maybe it would cut down on the page's subjectiveness if the hints being in the game is enough to disqualify an example? We already have tropes like Moon Logic Puzzle for "things that are techincally possible to figure out but good luck hitting upon it without help"
Twilightdusk
08:55:27 PM Aug 15th 2010
Yea, we have other tropes for oblique clues, this is when there is no logical way for someone to have solved something except for a)brute forcing (trying everything until something works), or b)using a guide.
comodapoltrona
04:44:09 PM Nov 20th 2010
edited by comodapoltrona
There's also the question of whether everything you can't figure out counts or just things that are required to advance. For instance, in Castlevania II you have to kneel with the red crystal at the cliff to even finish the game, whereas you can skip the silver knife entirely without any problems. In game clues are useless for either case though. I think there's a qualitative difference between stuff that's meant to be hidden and just lousy puzzles/mechanics that are unfathomable but necessary to win. We might as well list every secret area in Doom otherwise.
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