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Tannhaeuser
topic
08:53:44 AM Aug 12th 2010
edited by Tannhaeuser
It Got Worse Discussion:

  1. Turtler: Let's just say that the expansion of German ambitions in the aftermath of this war lead absolutely nowhere good.
    • lamna: They're still saying WW1 was the Germans' fault?
      • 75.37.6.237 : As per things like the ludicrous amount of saber-rattling involved, the use of luicrously aggressive Gunboat Diplomacy, the general pressure amongst the German elite to win a general war in Europe against one more of the Entente's members prior to the expected Russian peacetime revival in 1916, and finally Berlin's urging of Vienna to take a ludicrously aggressive stance and reject the Serbian capitulation to all but one of Vienna's demands in spite of acknowledging in internal memos that doing so would probably lead to war... Yes.
      • Light Spectra: Because it's not like Britain invented Gunboat Diplomacy and engaged in it far more than Germany did, mirite? And Berlin rather should've let Serbian terrorists get away with assassinating the Crown Prince to the Austro-Hungarian throne, mirite? Germany wasn't any more "evil" than any of the other European Great Powers of the day.
      • 206.192.253.163: While the British were quite known for saber rattling, they kept it overseas and did not try to destabilize the "Concert of Europe" anywhere near the extent Bismarck and Wilhelm did. And the terms of the ultimatum the Serbs agreed to effectively would have crippled the ability of UoD to operate and would have procided a starting point to further squeeze more concessions out of the Serbs and Montinegrins later had Berlin and Vienna not intentionally edged towards tipping Europe into a horrifically costly war out of paranoid fears of Russian reconstruction. And considering that the Germans from 1871 to 1918 killed more civilians than the British and French PUT TOGETHER did from 1800 to 2000.... let's just say that your contentions are less than accurate.
      • Callid: First, your statistic is wrong. The civilian deaths in British-India due to World War II alone are almost enough to outrun the civilians killed by German (mind you, German, not German-Austrian) forces in World War I, and we haven't even started with the causalities of the Allied bombings during World War II, not to mention civilians killed in colonies. Also, you seem to mix Bismarck and Wilhelm II together. As long as Bismarck dominated German politics, he always affirmed his policy of the saturated empire, and went to incredible efforts to ensure the Status Quo in Europe (yes, that means no wars and no expansion. Duh.). He also did not engage in sable rattling or Gunboat Diplomacy (he actually tried to be the exact opposite, the "honest broker"), and was against German colonies ("My map of Africa is located in Europe"). Actually, the 20 years following 1871 are an inversion of this trope. Wilhelm II. on the other hand is guilty of all the things mentioned, although World War I was surely not the Germans' fault alone; basically any nation has its part of guilt. Therefore, this trope is played straight for the time period 1890-1945.
    • Menshevik: On the other hand, the war of 1870/71 was followed by one of the longest periods of peace in European history.
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