What's Happening

Troperville

Tools

collapse/expand topics back to Main/FourTemperamentEnsemble

poeticnight
topic
03:34:33 PM Aug 26th 2014
Um excuse me but would the four personality catagories of tomodachi count? Confident types being choeric, independent types being melancholic, outgoing types being sanguine and easygoing types being phlegmatic? I apologize if I wrong however and on a side note which might sound irrelevant , may I also please ask if loirei from the pokemon kanto elite four would technically be melancholic due to he seriousness she displays in battle and when inthe anime as prima how I think but am not too sure she was described being analytical?
Bassball_Batman
topic
06:49:27 PM Nov 8th 2013
edited by 99.71.180.153
The color-wheel system would mean the following adjustments:
HienFan
topic
02:11:45 AM Sep 24th 2013
Not sure what high/low response actually means could anyone clarify that a bit?
Bassball_Batman
09:57:21 PM Oct 8th 2013
edited by 75.64.107.211
Expressive has to do with expressing needs and goals; responsive has to do with seeking reactions and answering what others express. People-oriented and responsive go hand-in-hand. Being an encourager and/or a good shoulder to cry on are two examples of being high responsive. Being task/goal-oriented and low responsive go hand-in-hand.
HienFan
topic
02:11:43 AM Sep 24th 2013
Not sure what high/low response actually means could anyone clarify that a bit?
Bassball_Batman
topic
12:03:06 PM Sep 7th 2013
edited by 99.71.180.153
Well lately, I've been leaning away from the grid (4-direction) and more toward the color-wheel (6-direction). Mixing the Kiersey temperaments in with the 4 humors, perhaps choleric, melancholic, and sanguine are in a triad. Choleric + melancholic = rationist; melancholic + sanguine = idealist; and choleric + sanguine = artisan. Eclegmatic (eclectic phlegmatic), of course, in the middle, as it could be neutral or eclectic. It is the balanced temperament.
What I've come up with thus far in correspondence:
Guardisan element: lightning; guardisan color: fuchsia. Choleric element: oil smoke/metal wire; choleric color: red.
Sanguine element: air/mist; sanguine color: blue. Rationist element: acid/volcano; rationist color: yellow.
Idealist element: water or ice; idealist color: cyan. Melancholic element: earth/soil; melancholic color: green.
The eclegmatic element can be wood/plant.
The color-wheel system sets up quite a symmetry system:
  • Symmetry A — melancholic, eclegmatic, and guardisan (damp elements earth/soil, wood/plant, and lightning) are all three balanced of the following:
    • The two unchanging-mind confrontational temps: choleric and rationist (dry elements oil smoke/metal wire and acid/volcano)
    • The two compassionate (understanding) temps: idealist and sanguine (moist elements water and air/mist)
  • Symmetry B — rationist, eclegmatic, and sanguine (cooled-or-hot elements acid/volcano, wood/plant, and air/mist) are all three balanced of the following:
  • Symmetry C — choleric, eclegmatic, and idealist (50-50 elements oil smoke/metal wire, wood/plant, and water) are all three balanced of the following:
    • The two I Work Alone temps: rationist and melancholic (earth-oriented elements acid/volcano and earth/soil)
    • The two "social butterfly" temps: sanguine and guardisan (vapor/energy elements air/mist and lightning)
      Would that work?
GranChi
11:13:16 PM Oct 29th 2013
edited by 129.64.203.137
That's an interesting idea! As a fan of colors, personality types, and fantasy elements, I like it. And your match-ups of the Kiersey temperaments and humor temperaments look right to me. (I especially like melancholic being between NF and NT - a lot of people have associated melancholic with SJ, and I've never understood that, as melancholic has always been the philosophical, independent temperament, quite unlike the typical SJ.)
Bassball_Batman
12:30:00 PM Nov 8th 2013
edited by 99.71.180.153
And I've noticed some have equated idealist with choleric, two concepts that are quite diametric opposites. The only thing I know they have in common is some sort of optimism, which is in vastly two differing ways. I would place everything describing leukine (plus some things from old phlegmatic) as eclegmatic; keeping choleric the same, plus some things from the sanguine/choleric blend; keeping rationist and melancholic the same; mixing in old phlegmatic and the melancholic/phlegmatic blend into idealist; adjusting sanguine to where the phlegmatic/sanguine blend are; and changing artisan to guardisan, and minus a few things and plus a number of things from pure sanguine.
Resulting in the practical/purposeful choleric, political/prophetic rationist, perfect/proper melancholic, peaceful/patient idealist, pleasant/popular sanguine, powerful/persuasive guardisan, and paced/pragmatic eclegmatic. These temperaments would correspond each to a pair of months: choleric to the apex of summer, rationist to autumn, melancholic to the winter solstice, idealist to the dead of winter, sanguine to spring, and guardisan to the summer solstice. The next post up above will mention the other adjustments. As a result, the ensemble is fullest and least lopsided in groups of 3, 4, 6, 7, and several other numbers we can think up:
  • 3-Temp Ensemble: A Power Trio (regular triangle of temperaments)
  • 4-Temp Ensemble: Temperament triad like above, plus an eclegmatic character.
  • 6-Temp Ensemble: 2 triads — all 6 temperaments in the color-wheel
  • 7-Temp Ensemble: The above + eclegmatic = all 7 temperaments.
If some temperaments have 2 characters but not all, it should be either 2 eclegmatics or 2-each in a triad of 6.
Scandia
topic
07:37:30 PM Aug 16th 2013
edited by 216.99.32.44
Not sure about two of the Catholic Spirituality styles. I originally put Ignatian as Choleric because I can imagine Inigo bossing the soldiers and students around. I also put Augustinian as Melancholic because Augustine could get very emotional in his writings. However, they could go the other way around, with Inigo being the methodical workaholic Melancholic, and Augustine being the emotional Choleric. While Francesco was as Sanguine as they come, and Tommaso was very intellectual and bookish and thus Phlegmatic, the other two I am not sure which one to pair up with. They do match the four Myers-Briggs/Keirsey/Jungian temperaments well- but when it comes to two of the styles, I am not 100% sure.
BassballBatman
topic
07:28:16 PM May 2nd 2013
edited by 216.99.32.45
I understand about the four temps and their original names being preserved being what lots of people are used to. But the dictionary definition of phlegmatic says that it's a stolidly calm, unemotional disposition. Some dictionaries include "sluggish" and "apathetic" as well, but for the most part, they seem to imply phlegmatic as being well-balanced.
  • Phlegmatic has, in definition, already drifted away from being choleric's "supine opposite" (assuming it ever has been in the first place). Though I don't imagine crowds would be ready to settle on phlegmatic as the central temperament yet, bear in mind (though I could be wrong) it seems unlikely that the accepted meaning of phlegmatic should back-track anytime soon.
    • I fancy, for instance, that worry and neurosis (things opposite to choleric) will continue to be seen as rather odd in defining phlegmatic.
So in defining phlegmatic, given the dictionary definition, something will easily seem unusual and out of place either way, whether it's opposite choleric or sitting in the center. So it doesn't really seem to make a difference which model we follow, old or new.
I saw on Eripedia, apparently a sub-site of Wordpress.com, that it was "Eric B" who coined the word "leukine" for a temperament, not on here, but on mindtweaks and INTP Central, both on which he mentions that "leukine" resolves the "S" dilemma (so that only one is initialized S).
  • It is mentioned on Eripedia that he has no idea how that word "leukine" ended up here on TV Tropes. From that I take it that he, when renaming supine with a sound-alike, was intending on positioning "leukine" right where supine is, not in the center where TV Tropes (re)positioned it.
GranChi
topic
08:13:56 PM Apr 3rd 2013
I see the reason that Leukine has been corresponded to the introverted and people-oriented position (so that it can correspond with sanguine as the two blood-related humors). However, this does not make sense with the established humors/temperaments system. Leukine was created here on TV Tropes, and previously served as a neutral fifth temperament. The only two names for the introverted and people-oriented temperament outside of this website are phlegmatic (originally) and supine (for when phlegmatic was made to be the neutral temperament. Therefore, if we're going to make phlegmatic the neutral temperament, the appropriate name for the introverted and people-oriented temperament would be supine. However, I think it makes more sense to do it the way we did before, to give the original four temperaments their original names (including phlegmatic) and to keep leukine as a neutral temperament for when one is needed.
nathanclay123
topic
11:05:47 AM Mar 23rd 2013
What about the Furious Five (even though theres five) from Kung Fu Panda?
Telcontar
moderator
11:17:48 AM Mar 23rd 2013
Um, by definition they aren't the trope, though there has been lots of misuse of the team tropes. Five ≠ four.
BassballBatman
12:06:26 PM May 6th 2013
Examples are 'not always exact matches for the pages of their directing. "Wear heart on sleeve" directs to the Drama Queen page, but that doesn't mean "heart worn on sleeve" always makes someone a Drama King/Queen.
  • It's true that 4 does not equal 5. I don't believe that any examples given is any attempt at making 4 and 5 equal. The fifth temperament (whether called "leukine" or "phlegmatic" on other models) is treated as an optional temperament. Some stories have that one; some don't. Ensemble of 4 or ensemble of 5 — it's still a balanced ensemble. I think an ensemble of 5 is preferable over one of 4 that's missing an "opposite" (using the middle temp instead), because if one of the four has no "opposite", that'll make the ensemble lopsided. A lopsided ensemble has been completed by a temporary or secondary character included and/or a new character introduced, which I find acceptable — long as the ensemble is completed.
IDoStuffWithThings113
04:57:08 PM May 14th 2013
Also, pretty much any character will fit into one of these categories, regardless of the dynamic the character creates with other ones.
BassballBatman
topic
01:26:05 AM Feb 28th 2013
edited by 216.99.32.45
"Phlegmatic I" is the 4th temp according to the first temp model. "Supine" is the 4th temp and "phlegmatic II" the middle-of-the-road according to the second model. The 4th temp is logically opposite from choleric.
  • That 4th temp is not so full of joking like phlegmatic I, or else who's to distinguish it from sanguine?
  • Nor is it full of such stoicism and apathy like (again) phlegmatic I, or else who's to distinguish it from phlegmatic II?
  • On the flip side, I don't see the 4th temp as being overly neurotic, self-sensitive, or trapped in harboring hurt/anger, as is supine, or else who's to distinguish it from melancholic?
So, to avoid the mistakes of phlegmatic I and supine, I propose a new temp based on blood's white plasm. The result? Two colors of blood and two of bile!
  • Leucine is a type of amino acid (I don't know much about it, but it might be well-known).
  • The name "Leukine" already belongs to a medicine drug and might be copyright.
    • But I've a new word that isn't easily mistakable for others (except maybe "leucasin" or "leucosin") with an os in the middle and e on the end: leucosine. And I see no sign of that word being patented; it seems to be up for grabs.
The "leucosine" temp can be handed over to worry and neurosis at times, as well as not like displaying own personal emotions, but it is certainly amiable, reliable, agreeable, nurturing, supportive, and sensitive to the feelings of others. A good pair of keywords would be "motherly servant."
  • And anything phlegmatic I and supine have in common? That, too, finds a place in this temp.
  • It's a pretty good opposite to choleric, no?
And, in agreement with the second temp model, shall we thus place "phlegmatic" in the center as the 5th temp?
  • Not to mention, this arrangement will solve the whole baffling dilemma of writing "phleg I" and "phleg II." To me that seems the best arrangement. Comments?
DevonKennedy2
topic
07:35:28 PM Jan 6th 2013
edited by DevonKennedy2
It looks like there's some disagreement about how The Beatles line up. Before I've seen John (choleric), Paul (sanguine), George (melancholic), and Ringo (phlegmatic). Now it's John (melancholic), Paul (choleric), George (phlegmatic), and Ringo (sanguine). I'm a big Beatles fan and I personally agree with the first line-up: John was bold and independent (which led to his peace activism in later years), Paul was the cheerful one who was more concerned with social interaction (just listen to all his love songs), George was the reflective and thoughtful one who pursued his love for Indian philosophy, and Ringo was the amiable but mostly quiet one (he doesn't say much if you watch interviews with the band). What do you guys think?
AceDetective
07:15:03 PM Sep 6th 2013
I think that John Lennon was mostly sanguine because I noticed how he himself stated that he had a big mouth and he was considered lazy and disorganized compared to Paul Mc Cartney. Paul Mc Cartney, I consider him to be choleric because he actually showed some leadership qualities during the time he was with the Beatles. Heck I noticed from some books I read, He was a prime example of a control freak who accomplished things all for his own sake not everyone else's. George Harrison is melancholic because of his attitude towards The Beatles. After the recording of Revolver, he was ready to leave the group much quicker than everyone else and his attitude towards Paul Mc Cartney sort reminds me of Leonardo and Raphael from Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. They were so different from each other in terms of likes and dislikes and it seems as though George(who hated doing commercial songs along with Lennon) despised Paul for being a sellout. Ringo Starr, he is phlegmatic of course because of his amiable personality. So you are correct about George and Ringo, it just that personally I saw John as a leader who never wanted to be one while Paul as second in command who aimed to take control of the band!
Bassball_Batman
09:12:38 PM Nov 3rd 2013
edited by 75.64.107.211
If u want a Scottish-prefix last name on here (McCartney) without making a non-existent link of it, remember: it will assume that double-caps without a space between always means a link, unless u tell it otherwise with a bracket smileys around it, like so: [=McCartney=].
AceDetective
01:52:25 PM Nov 7th 2013
edited by 96.36.83.21
I have done a bit more research and now I believe these are the more accurate personalities for those four:

John Lennon was Sanguine/Phlegmatic because of his charismatic yet pessimistic nature along with his tendency to be a brooder at sporadic moments. He himself stated that he had a big mouth and was considered by a reporter as lazy and disorganized. He also had moments where he would have random anger outbursts but was able to forgive and forget. He was an impatient and sarcastic man who would be happy one day then cruel the next day! He had a habit of exaggerating his accomplishments and being vain, arrogant, and a narcissist. He was classified as the agitator of the band since he was a total dick to a lot of people (including his family and bandmates) and was willing to leave the band by 1966 when he made the "Bigger than Jesus" remark!

Ringo Starr is Choleric/Phlegmatic because of his driven yet analytical personality although he has his moments of mood swings and having a bit of an inferior complex in the band. According to the book by Geoff Emerick "Here, There, And Everywhere", Ringo was actually the quiet one in the band who said very little, always seemed to have his guard up, and his lack of confidence in his drumming abilities. He was also very uptight and nervous when it came to singing since he was not much of a vocalist. He's the only ex-Beatle who collaborated with all the other Beatles, which shows signs of potential leadership that Ringo unfortunately failed to attain. The reason why could be because like I previously stated, he was the quiet one of the band or he just never even bothered to care.

Paul McCartney is Sanguine/Choleric because of his happy-go-lucky and bubbly nature yet domineering personality. According to the travelling journalists, Paul and George were known as the pranksters of the band. He has a massive ego so he can have moments of being a control freak who wanted things to go his way, and a perfectionist towards a lot of his songs (Maxwell's Silver Hammer anyone?). He is the only ex-Beatle who hardly ever collaborated with the others (if he did, it's mostly with Ringo) and he has a habit of being thin-skinned or sensitive to criticism. Despite his flaws, he was classified as the diplomat of the band since he only wished to keep the band going even though he knew that the band's dissolution was inevitable (according to John, Paul was only keeping the band going for his own sake, not everyone else's).

George Harrison was Melancholic/Sanguine because of his immense need to be independent, pessimistic nature and indifference towards fame. He had a fearsome temper, started fights with policemen and photographers during his early years touring with The Beatles, and was a red-blooded man. According to a biography by Bob Spitz, George was very stubborn and despised authority figures. He was the one who argued a lot during numerous sessions like the White Album and Let It Be sessions. He almost got into a fist fight with John because he acted rude towards his wife Yoko Ono. Another thing was his nearly life-long resentment towards Paul for "ruining him as a guitarist" and his experience as a Beatle almost to the point that he likely suffered from post traumatic stress disorder. The people who knew him clarify that he hardly was the "Quiet Beatle" fans view him as! In fact, some of his friends recalled how he would never stop talking, which probably has to do with his secondary temperament being sanguine. Altogether he was more of the "Stubborn Beatle" than anything else!

So, what do you guys think?
maxxgrimm
topic
10:00:43 PM Nov 22nd 2012
So I've been seeing you guys writing "Phlegmatic II" on the main page AND here. But you never specified on the main page what "Type II Phlegmatic" is and what Type I would be in contrast. What's the difference?
IDoStuffWithThings113
05:24:04 PM Apr 2nd 2013
In the original four temperaments, the phlegmatic was the people oriented introvert. In the later five temperament version, it was changed to be the moderate temperament and we used to call the new version of the phlegmatic "phlegmatic type II".
Tsura
topic
11:55:29 AM Oct 17th 2012
I hate to be the party pooper here, but the description of these humours is very wrong as it is.

The other wiki, in this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humours , claims that Phlegmatic is one of the original four humours, and makes absolutely no mention of Leukine at all, not even as Supine.
player2start
11:53:29 AM Oct 19th 2012
edited by player2start
I agree, the content appears to have changed rather drastically from what it was, and seems quite incorrect according to The Other Wiki. The current description completely disregards the old model.

"The four temperament system was an interesting one, but flawed. Several tests noticed people that did not conform to any of the behaviour types, so a neutral temperament was created." The current description describes The Five Temperaments, not the Four.

Consideration of this neutral temperament is a practical addition, but it should be just that, an addition. The classical four temperaments should be listed as such, and then there should be additional information on The Five Temperaments.

"In the Five Temperaments theory, the classical Phlegmatic temperament is in fact deemed to be a neutral temperament, whereas the "relationship-oriented introvert" position traditionally held by the Phlegmatic is declared to be a new "fifth temperament.""

Having the descriptions for both will help eliminate confusion for directs referencing the classical model.
Bassball_Batman
09:43:34 PM Nov 3rd 2013
Perhaps look at my Seven-Temperament color-wheel theory above. It actually places phlegmatic in the middle and makes two Power Trio sets of the other six: choleric, melancholic, and sanguine for one Power Trio; and melan-choleric, melan-guine, and sang-oleric for the other Power Trio.
romxxii
topic
12:01:40 AM Oct 16th 2012
edited by romxxii
This page needs a major overhaul. I just spent the last 30 minutes cleaning up the formatting mishap which removed all the carriage returns before the asterisks, and that's just the tip of the iceberg. I saw a lot of Square Peg Round Trope, rambling descriptions, natter, and a boatload of unnecessary potholing that makes editing this page a nightmare.

clovely
topic
05:46:18 AM May 18th 2012
edited by clovely
I think for the 5 girl characters in L.O.L. (Laughing Out Loud), the french original version from 2008 this works pretty good too.

Sanguine: Lola

Choleric: Isabell De Peyrefitte

Melancholic: Charlotte

Phlegmatic: Stéphane

Supine: Provence
SirOrion
topic
12:57:52 AM Nov 18th 2011
edited by SirOrion
I guess this might be jumping the gun a bit but it seems as far as the Marvel Cinematic Universe the four main heroes might play out pretty close to the 4 temperaments if their portrayals in their respective movies are any indication.

So basically:

Tony/Iron Man- Choleric

Steve/Cap- Phlegmatic (maybe Phleg type II?)

Thor- Sanguine

Bruce/ Hulk- Melancholic

I think it would work quite well just for the front end of things but I again I'd rather not jump the gun as of yet.
SenoritaTacoMal
topic
05:15:50 PM Oct 3rd 2011
I have to add, this page just got me bonus points on a history test where we had to list these :) "Yellow bile? Tsundere."
KainLupus
topic
05:25:27 AM May 6th 2011
I take issue with the Mass Effect example. Shepherd's personality is dependant on the player and, while it may not be possible to play as any of the four temperaments, you could definitely go Sanguine instead of Choleric
MollyWalker
topic
06:24:38 PM Jan 10th 2011
I feel like there is a lot of Square Peg Round Trope happening on this page - ensembles with only three characters and ensembles whose personalities do not fit the temperaments as delineated in the description. Would there be a crazy amount of backlash if the examples that don't fit are removed?
Westrim
08:18:42 PM Jan 10th 2011
edited by Westrim
HEATHEN! WAAAAAAAGH!

No, go ahead. If someone disagrees with an entry deletion we can deal with that later, but it shouldn't be a big deal.
199.250.57.231
03:22:40 PM Feb 18th 2011
edited by 199.250.57.231
I know what these "temperaments" are but I'm trying to understand how they apply to characters. I think there's still a lot that don't fit. What is the best example?
NoirGrimoir
09:58:11 PM Mar 13th 2011
edited by NoirGrimoir
I kind of agree, I don't think the problem is the trope though, I just think the site is missing alternate versions of a group of four ensemble. For instance we have tons of versions of Power Trios but we somehow only have one for a group of four?

EDIT: just created the Four Philosophical Ensemble, a new group of four trope that may fit some groups better, in the YKTTW here: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/discussion.php?id=oenebf5w9rj3cqqw1dl5kvgo

Check it out

Thebes
11:26:32 AM Jun 25th 2011
Seeing as the Four Humors-type is just a graph with extroversion-vs-introversion on the y-axis and goal-oriented-vs-people-oriented on the x-axis, it's almost omni-present as a characterization trope. In my experience, a character designed simply to seem real can often be fit into this chart after the fact. A character would have to be flat (which falls in the expanded chart anyway) or completely alien to avoid falling somewhere on the chart.

I propose that this page be exclusively for cast of four-to-five, designed to fill one type each. But that works with well-defined character personalities could link back to this page from their character sheet.

tl;dr — This page, just for groups designed to fit this. Large casts link to this as a Useful Notes page from character page.
atheywa
02:34:46 PM Sep 10th 2011
edited by atheywa
I'm not sure that the four humors apply to characters at all. The one used for the quote, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles works well for two or three out of the four of them as there's The Hero Leonardo (Choleric), The Smart Guy Donatello (Melancholic), the good side of Sanguine is Michelangelo and the flip side of it is Raphael (The Big Guy), but no one is the calm and compassionate Phlegmatic. Am I missing something or is there an example that works better?
Bassball_Batman
09:38:42 PM Nov 3rd 2013
Well, the one thing the Five-Temperament theory and my color-wheel theory (two Power Trio sets; see top of page) is that Phlegmatic alternates between neutral and eclectic — "middle-of-the-road." There are two theories that fit, if we use my color-wheel, depending on which Power Trio we rely on (again, see top of page). Either...
"Middle-of-the-road" phlegmatic Donnie, choleric Raph, melancholic Leo, and sanguine Mike.
Or...
"Middle-of-the-road" phlegmatic Leo, melan-choleric Raph, melan-guine Donnie, and sang-oleric Mike.
Also, the famous singing chipmunks fit a Power Trio in temperament, but I'm not sure what I think of Simon in blue and Theodore in green, as vice-versa might be better fitting in their temperaments.
Fool
topic
03:25:10 AM May 8th 2010
edited by Fool
Is it okay if I add a trivia page explaining more about the temperaments and how they apply in real life?

Edit: Actually, nevermind. There's already an article linked about them.
R.G.
topic
01:29:15 PM Mar 4th 2010
Okay,what temperaments would the main charcters from Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann have?
back to Main/FourTemperamentEnsemble

TV Tropes by TV Tropes Foundation, LLC is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported License.
Permissions beyond the scope of this license may be available from thestaff@tvtropes.org.
Privacy Policy