Main Evil Versus Evil Discussion

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02:09:49 PM Jun 7th 2015
Why is the film section gone?
02:44:45 AM Jun 8th 2015
Because it was split between "Live Action Film" and "Films Animation".
08:00:59 PM Mar 15th 2015
Why do tropers feel the need to describe the eastern front of WW2 as evil vs evil? Thats probably natter and flame war bait to Russian/German tropers.

The nightmare fuel page for Call Of Duty calls the eastern front evil vs evil, for example
12:58:55 AM Mar 16th 2015
It's commonly perceived as such. I would personally omit it, as real life misdeeds are beyond our purpose.

Unless it's evil vs evil inside of a story, then it's good to list.
01:55:59 AM Nov 13th 2015
It was the Nazis under Hitler vs. the Soviet Union Stalin, two of the cruelest men and regimes in world history. I think when both opponents have committed genocide and caused millions of deliberate deaths, they're both evil.
04:41:14 PM Oct 15th 2013
If a villain who is a Noble Demon and a villain who is Faux Affably Evil are fighting for power, is this an example of Evil vs. Evil? Explain why/why not.
12:29:47 PM Apr 16th 2014
This would probably be dark gray vs. dark gray as both sides still have some standards, albeit not the same ones. It depends on whether you allow for different kinds of evil or if you expect a true villain to be evil in every imaginable way possible.
04:55:29 AM Jun 10th 2017
edited by 500100500
It is a example of Evil Versus Evil. Noble Demon and Faux Affably Evil are Evil Counterparts of each other. The Noble Demon is The Lesser of Two Evils when compared to the Faux Affably Evil villain. The Faux Affably Evil villain will get in the way of the Noble Demon's plan, and this will cause tensions between the two, and they are more likely to fight each other.
05:55:32 PM Mar 8th 2012
  • Sisterhood series by Fern Michaels: What's funny is that the author was trying to create Good Versus Evil, but ends up creating this instead. The Sisterhood uses Fate Worse than Death and Pay Evil unto Evil on their targets so much that He Who Fights Monsters sets in. Their targets are made up of rapists, child molesters, murderers, cultists, and thieves. As a bit of Irony, you find yourself feeling sorry for the people the Sisterhood targets, even though the author clearly expects you not to feel any sympathy for the targets at all!

Evil vs. Evil is not ymmv
04:18:57 AM Sep 24th 2011
Similarly. Kenpachi is only a Soul Reaper so he can fight against powerful opponents. He gets his wish when he fights against Nnoitra, the 5th Espada. Said Espada was busy smacking Ichigo around, having waited until he was exhausted from fighting Grimmjow before he stepped in. He also saves Ichigo because there's no way he'll let the kid die before he gets his rematch.
  • Kenpachi's example is rather questionable, given that as vicious and bloodthirsty as he is, he's never actually been presented as evil. Everyone he's killed has either deserved it or voluntarily agreed to a deathmatch due to sharing his Blood Knight tendencies.

As the natter says, in-story Kenpachi is not evil.
02:43:45 PM Aug 22nd 2011
  • My Immortal gives us an unintentional example: Ebony is a raging monster that's a complete danger to anything and anyone she comes across. But she fights Volfemort, the Big Bad.
    • Though, since Voldemint never does anything other than hijacking a MCR concert and speaks in vaguely threatening Purple Prose, Egogy might be truly evil while Volxemort might more more grey.

In-story, she is a good guy. And Evil vs. Evil is not YMMV.
04:16:30 AM Aug 7th 2011
I notice the Spongebob Squarepants example was removed on the grounds that Krabs isn't evil. Now while Krabs may not have been evil when the show first started, he is now as a result of Flanderization.
01:24:21 AM Mar 9th 2011
what about gang wars? both sides kill, rape, steal, and other miscellaneous crimes. And arguably only for terrortory or because someone disrespected someone from the other gang
02:16:22 AM Mar 15th 2011
edited by Malchus
No Real Life examples means no Real Life examples. Period.
10:44:31 PM Dec 18th 2010
Code geass does not count. The main character is clearly an antihero, and the show operates under black and gray.
08:14:30 PM Nov 17th 2010
Couldn't we have the Aztecs vs. The Spanish? The Aztecs, who practised human sacrifice and cannibalism, vs. the Spanish who enslaved the Indians, looted their temples, and raped their women?
09:22:49 AM Nov 18th 2010
edited by SomeGuy
No. The "no Real Life examples" portion is bolded for a reason. Specifically, the fact that it would probably provoke a Flame War.
09:36:30 PM Nov 7th 2010
edited by 411314
Just to be clear, is this restricted to Villain Protagonists with antagonists who are also villains, or can also include villains fighting each other despite niether being the main character? Some examples currently on the page fit the latter but not the former.
09:52:56 PM Nov 7th 2010
I think that the other one might fall under Enemy Civil War. Assuming that there is a protagonist faction for both to be antagonistic towards.
11:38:42 AM Jun 15th 2010
I just realized (and fully agree with) why this trope is not titled Black And Black Morality, although I see the redirect for it.
03:27:31 PM Sep 8th 2010
Now that you've pointed it out I see it, too. Nominating this title for Cut List, as it's long since fallen out of use.
06:53:29 PM May 30th 2010
Kersey475: Can this overlap with Pay Evil unto Evil?
04:48:07 AM Jun 12th 2010
edited by Iaculus
Not-really,-except-from-a-very-meta-standpoint.-Pay Evil unto Evil-is-about-the-heroes-feeling-justified-in-doing-deeply-unpleasant-things-to-their-enemies-because-they're-the-bad-guys.

Evil vs. Evil-implies-that-neither-side-has-an-excuse.
06:46:13 AM Jun 19th 2011
In a Pay Evil unto Evil situation, the hero is portrayed as being in the right when doing bad things because the victims are evil and deserved it. In an Evil vs. Evil situation, there is no hero, there are just two villains. Noone is in the right, though one may be less in the wrong than the other.
05:34:55 AM Mar 24th 2010
411314: I know the page forbids real life examples, but why can't we add Stalin vs. Mao? Surely, we can all agree that both of those men were evil (they both had a lot of people murdered, after all) and they did become opponents (look up the Sino-Soviet Split). I know when I posted this question the first time, jojabar replied

"For the same reason that we don't have any real life examples on the Character Alignment page: Real Life morality is far too complicated and subjective to not cause an Edit War."

But is it really "complicated" or "subjective" as to weather or not mass murderers are evil?
07:36:15 PM Apr 18th 2010
Because when we say "No Real Life examples", we don't mean "No Real Life Examples except a couple of them." It's impossible to draw a line and say "These are okay, but no others" because everyone who wants to add one thinks it's just as clearcut as the ones that are already there. It's much clearer to simply draw a line and say "No. None." The wiki isn't really about Real Life examples anyway.
10:06:19 PM Jun 11th 2010
Not to mention that some of the real life entries could cause an edit war. The removal of real life examples on this page was because of some minor edit war started by someone who kept putting in "Japan VS. USA in WWII" as an example.
06:56:34 PM Jul 3rd 2010
Someone really need to edit and lessen some of the details for real life examples. It's dangerously breaching the Ruleofcautiouseditingjudgement.
10:25:43 AM Sep 8th 2010
I have always considered that most wars are evil versus evil, lass only exceptions are those of independence and those who are in self defense.
09:18:25 AM Nov 23rd 2010
I must say I found it unfortunate that we can't list facts. It's like the cencorship in China who doesn't want anything 'bad' about them in their newspapers. I can only imagine people removing USA stuff for their USA-ego. A lot of people do not know that normal americans citizens who happen to have Asian roots where thrown into camps after Pearl Harbor. I thought tvtropes was informal just like any wiki. This has nothing to do with an opinion at all, these are facts. This makes me question the credibility of a site I use as a guide, how sad.

09:24:39 AM Nov 23rd 2010
Calling real life people "evil" is only going to piss people off. It's that simple. Please don't compare the admins to China. That sort of ridiculous hyberbole isn't going to make anyone take you at all seriously.
11:46:58 AM Jan 20th 2011
I was thinking Henry Kissinger's quote about the Iran-Iraq war: "the ultimate American interest in the war [is] that both should lose," would fit this fairly well (if you are an Eaglelander). But no Real Life examples means that, so I'll just leave this here.
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