Since as written, the trope is supposed to be restricted to the reactions of non-Americans to the U.S., but 1) clearly all three versions of the U.S. are present in American works, and there is no separate page for listing them, and 2) the overwhelming majority of tropers who posted here seem to have either not noticed (myself included) or ignored the fact that American works aren't supposed to be posted here, I would strongly suggest either creating a separate page for American works that show the three versions (and moving all the American examples to it), or simply removing the lines at the beginning disqualifying American examples, since the page is full of them.
Looking at this discussion, the discrepancy has apparently been in place a very long time.
As a side note, should there be parallel pages for other countries? "Country X rocks! Or sucks! Or some of both!" And should they likewise be divided into local vs. foreign examples?
And last of all.... If we are keeping American examples, or even if we're moving them to a separate page, would it be out of line for me to suggest that, *just maybe*, Donald Trump is, at present, a controversial enough source of flame bait that his quote could, quite reasonably, be removed from the Type 1 quotes? It would seem prudent.
All right—I'm going to comment here rather than just start editing, since apparently my edits have been reverted, twice now. When I see "America, F*** Yeah" as an example as Type 1 Eagleland, I almost retch. Really. Not being jingoistic or anything here. Team America World Police? That was their theme song. And that's a PRIME example of Type II Eagleland, despite its rather—odd Aesop in the end. So, if the editing community of this page agrees, I'm going to delete both instances of F*** yeah and just leave it America the Beautiful and America the Boorish.
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I disagree. For starters, Team America was made by citizens of the USA, so it's not a "PRIME example" of type II, it's not an example at all.
But American Fuck Yeah-America Fuck You/Yeah Let's Fuck America is much funnier than "The beautiful/the boorish", which makes it better.
That's why he wants you to have the money. Not so you can buy 14 Cadillacs but so you can help build up the wastes
You Give Me Fever
So, why no quotes? The quotes page seems to have problems in of itself, the overwhelming amount of them do not seem to be valid examples. Futurama and American Dad were made by Americans, so they don't count. Anyone happen to know of any others?
That's why he wants you to have the money. Not so you can buy 14 Cadillacs but so you can help build up the wastes Hide / Show Replies
Yeah, honestly the trope gets hugely misused for "stereotypical American," rather than "foreigner's view of America." Might be worth a trip to TRS.
Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
Bigfoot Puncher
So before I add this example to the page, I'm just going to ask (since it's such an obvious example that it would have been added already unless there was some specific reason not to) why is Team America: World Police not listed under this trope, in either flavor? It's called Team America: World Police'', and its most significant contribution to pop culture is a song called "America, Fuck Yeah!".
A fistful of me. Hide / Show Replies
Because it was not made by a foreign creative team but resident citizens of the United States itself? You know, what the page is all about?
That's why he wants you to have the money. Not so you can buy 14 Cadillacs but so you can help build up the wastes
I'm not sure flavor #1 really exists at all in works by non-Americans. At least not in any works from the last few decades. It's certainly quite common in works made by Americans, of course, but it makes little sense in an "outsider looking in" trope.
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It's out there, though obviously not as prevalent as Flavors 2 and 3. For example, there's Graham Aker and the Union of Solar Energy and Free Nations in Mobile Suit Gundam 00; both are clear analogues of an American fighter pilot and the US respectively. Usually they'd be frowned upon, but out of the Big Three factions in 00, the Union was arguably the most positively depicted; Graham is treated as a badass who can take on Gundams in a basic Flag mobile suit (all the while caring about his friends and subordinates to the point of obsession), while the Union largely presented as a nation trying to defend itself against the incursions of Celestial Being as opposed to being a tyrannical regime that throws babies into bonfires. In that sense, it isn't exactly "America the Beautiful", but compared to the Atlantic Federation in Gundam SEED, it definitely qualifies as Flavor 1.
According to Titanium Dragon:
"It is also worth noting that these places also have a marked tendency to suckle at the teat of the rest of the country; states which tend to be more Republican also take more money than they pay in taxes and have lower standards of living, while the states which are pro-tax also tend to get less back."
Really? Then how do you explain states like California, Illinois and Michigan? Last I checked, those states were as blue as the ocean, yet they're the ones that are taking the most money and giving the least back right now. California is the first state to have a whole city suffer bankruptcy (Stockton), while cities like Los Angeles, Chicago and Detroit are infamous for their lower standards of living. Hell, things are so bad in California that there was even discussion around 2009-2010 about reverting it back to territorial status, while public services in Illinois and Michigan have been dwindling due to the faltering state budgets. And that's not even going into the subject of Colorado (i.e. New California, because that's where a fair number of Californians vacated to when their home state started going under), Connecticut (which is set to suffer serious economic fallout with Colt moving out of Hartford in response to the rampant gun control legislation) or New York (with New York City's standard of living the most infamous in the union).
In case it wasn't obvious (apparently it wasn't to TD) state political lines and economic ideology are not so apparent that each state is either a hellhole or a utopia depending on whether they are Democrat or Republican oriented. It mostly comes down to how each state fared through the recession, with some coming out better than others (regardless of their being red or blue).
Can I ask something?
I've noticed this trope being listed on the pages of several works or creators that are American. I thought that this trope was about depictions of the United States from outside the country. Don't the works have to be foreign in order to qualify for this trope? If an American work or creator references it, shouldn't it count as either Cultural Cringe/Boomerang Bigot (for Type 2) or some other sort of Creator Provincialism (for Type 1)?
Just wanted to clear that up.
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It's been a month so you might've already done this and I didn't see, but you might want to bring that up on the forums and get a concerted effort to reduce misuse going.
ANT Muddle is the one who insisted on adding examples created by Americans most recently but is probably not the only one. Anyway, I will put clean up of this trope on my to-do list, it probably needs to be better curated.
Modified Ura-nage, Torture Rack
Though I won't remove it myself, because I'm not 100% sure if I should, should Team Fortress 2 (under the "Video Games" subsection of the "Mixed Examples" section) be removed? It does deal with the contrasting stereotypes, but it's an American-made game.
Nintendo Master
Anyone know where the top "flavor 1" picture came from? I think it looks kind of cool.
mechas64castles.net >> Blog, news, articles, databases, oddities, personal stuff
Internet Wanderer
Removed this:
- 3rd Jul '12 6:12:42 PM FanraAdded line(s) 469 (click to see context) :** Many Americans get upset about the "huge amount of money" the government spends on foreign aid, complaining that it should be spent at home and that other nations don't appreciate it. They don't realize that foreign aid is only about 1% of the entire U.S. government budget, and most of it is military aid.
I looked up some figures and found that the amount of military aid is usually only a third of the total amount of U.S. foreign aid or less (in 2010, $15 billion of $52.7 billion—that's 28.6% of the foreign aid budget), not "most" as Fanra claims.
Considering Fanra added this as a response to a Real Life example about U.S. foreign aid, this also reads like disguised Conversation In The Main Page and a Take That! (saying Americans "get upset" over and "don't realize" what Fanra—incorrectly—claims is fact). Fanra might as well have ranted on end about evil Yankee imperialists using foreign aid to hock their war machines.
Edited by TrevMUN
Apparantly, quotes for a type I Eagleland exist only in sarcastic form.
It's super effective.
- George Liquor from Ren and Stimpy, he's so patriotic he believes republicans are communists.
Uhhh....what? How is...what?
It's super effective.
- Tintin in America is set partly in Gangsterland, partly in Injun Country.
How do either of those match any definition of the trope?
Why is Team America's "America, Fuck Yeah!" song being used as the opening descriptor for Flavour 1? Unless I've completely mistaken what each flavour is meant to be, that song is clearly in and satirising Flavour 2 - it's the perfect backing music for that flavour, whereas Flavour 1 is better fit with more classic patriotic music like "America the Beautiful".
Internet Wanderer
Removed this:
- * One can argue that the humans in Avatar are meant to represent an imperialist view of America. The RDA corporation is plundering Pandora for fun and profit with little care for the native population, and the military is led by a jingoistic Colonel Kilgore expy. However the manual says that the RDA's actions on Pandora are unpopular with a significant part of the population. The reason the RDA hadn't resorted to more brutal tactics earlier was to keep up public appearance.** It may not be so much America specifically as humanity itself, or even just the people in charge of it. The RDA is a Take That! to major corporations and military people. Although Colonel Quaritch is certainly an Eagleland stereotype of sorts.** But when you think about, every named human on Pandora is, or seems to be an American, even Trudy and Max, who are But Not Too Foreign.** And would it have made that much of difference if Sam Worthington used his natural accent, instead of an American one?
It was made Administrivia that Examples Are Not Arguable; sure enough, this one attracted Natter. I did a quick search for James Cameron's input about this; there's this interview
and then this one. Taking into account his statements in both interviews, I'm not really sure whether Avatar would be a Flavor 2, Mixed Flavor, or irrelevant example—but the whole "it could be argued" bit had to go.
In Other for Flavor 2, aoirann wrote,
"Except you know.... The Taliban (the government of Afghanistan at that time) refused to give him over and they were kind of dicks."
I wouldn't really know how to change it to reflect this, but I remembered that this is not true.
AP, Kathy Gannon, October 14, 2001
"A senior Taliban leader said Sunday that the Islamic militia would be willing to hand over Osama bin Laden to a third country if the United States halts the bombing of Afghanistan and provides evidence against him."
Should this be changed at all? I don't want to do it without asking, since I have only made like one edit so far and I don't want to start an edit war. :3
Edited by contradictioninterms Hide / Show Replies
I dont think so. One guy in a government isnt a representation of all of them.
I'm baaaaaaack
Posted in Real Life for Type 1:
"It seems like it might be the other way around. The good-natured Flavor 1 is likely to be more culturally sensitive and likely to exhibit a Cultural Cringe and do the whole "pretend you're Canadian" routine. The more brash and disrespectful Type 2 that would be the rude tourist would be more likely to not care and just say they were American."
Yikes. Unfortunate Implications ahoy.
So, not caring what others think, and not being ashamed of your country enough to deny from being there automatically makes you a rude, brash Type 2? It seems as though the poster is insinuating that "good" Americans (Type 1) exhibit the Cultural Cringe (i.e., hate their own country), and "bad" Americans (Type 2) are the ones who are proud to be from it. I was abroad a few years ago (Japan, to be specific); I never even considered pretending to be from Canada, and never expressed disgust with my country's policies or culture. Does that somehow make me a bad person? Is it impossible for an American tourist to be culturally sensitive and patriotic at the same time?
I don't think this belongs on the main page.
Edited by Severen Hide / Show Replies
In some people's minds, American patriotism is inextricably linked with jingoism, invading other countries for shits and giggles as well as supporting the Evil American Empire^TM, so their only natural reaction is to demonize all American patriots as such.
It's funny how Hitler Ate Sugar is mostly a discouraged mindset except when it comes to this issue.
Edited by Exploder
I agree, that's gotta go. Failing Geography Forever, excessive gun ownership and an odious, arrogant attitude are not prerequisites for patriotism.
And exhibiting the Cultural Cringe and pretending to be from another country are not prerequisites for being a Type 1. Neither are being patriotic, owning a firearm or two, or not caring what others may think of your patriotism prerequisites for being a Type 2, for that matter.
Glad we cleared that up.
Edited by Severen
Neves783, beginner
How do I deconstruct the Type 1 version of this trope? Type 2 is pretty easy - Team America: World Police did that before.
And sometimes I wish our universe and the Tokimeki Memorial universe shall one day converge. Hide / Show Replies
Type 2 is, in a sense, a deconstruction of type 1. A biased and extreme deconstruction of type 1. It takes the idea of sticking to tradition and turns it into a nostalgia filter, takes the american dream and turns it into an obsession with one's own success with no regard for others, and it takes the idea of a heroic powerful military and turns it into a country throwing it's military power around to assert its dominance.
Type 1 could also be deconstructed with a "with great power comes great responsibility" mentality from a political or military point of view focusing on the questionable means through which the government or military works despite good intentions.
I'm not sure whether a Huey Long (and no I don't expect you to know who that is) treatment of politicians would be a deconstruction of type 1 or reconstruction of type 2. In which politicians are openly jerks who lie and cheat but still do what is best for the citizens for the sake of getting votes. (I always respected him for this)
It could also work on a personal level by focusing on the trials one would face, and then failing to achieve the American dream. (I like this idea)
America itself in real life has arguably been Deconstructed and reconstructed over and over and over again. Counterculture, anyone? Suffragettes, unions, beatniks, hippies, HIPPIES, black civil rights, gays, greenpeace, on and on have had some shattered image of a not-so-perfect America but by working within the system and perservering they have assimilated themselves into the fabric of our culture despite being the Unfavorites of the country during their day.
I'm noticing the link to Blatant Lies from the quote regarding what America is supposed to be built on. Sorry, but that looks too much like America-bashing and Strawman Political to me, so I'm changing the link to Your Mileage May Vary.
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That quote you're referring to was originally potholed to Incorruptible Pure Pureness. Whoever changed it from that to Blatant Lies was indeed trying to slip in a little America-bashing and Strawman Political bullshit, while at the same time Completely Missing The Point about why that pothole existed in the first place.
I've changed the pothole back to Incorruptible Pure Pureness.
Edit: I looked in the trope edit history and caught who did it.
For shame, Golden Alex. For shame.
Edited by TrevMUN
The hilarious part is that here we have a more funny subtle joke changed to more American slapstick. ;]
...And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense - R.W.Wood
And what exactly do you mean by that, TBeholder? Given what I've seen of you on the Animal Wrongs Group discussion page, you seem like you only comment on discussion pages just to make random insults toward Americans rather than actually discussing the topics at hand.
Edited by TrevMUN
Well, it's one more way to phrase "poking fun at Offended!!1 internet Tru Scotsmen", too. =) But hey, even i still hope even you see it not on Mac Book.
...And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense - R.W.Wood
What you said makes no sense at all. What does any of this have to do with a Mac Book?
Given your first answer, the first part is extremely unsurprising. As to Muck Bugs, there's a rather unappetizing archetype.
...at least these days.
can you hear me
The descriptions of the subtropes are a little confusing. The sentiment behind the statement in Big Applesauce is interesting, but then it's repeat in Everything is Big in Texas kind of kills it, and then it's used again in Hollywood California paradoxically (what, Californians view the rest of America in two seperate, mutually exclusive ways?) It doesn't even work well as an Overly Long Gag... Perhaps some kind of edit is in order? I can't think of a good way to do it besides deleting two out of those three. Suggestions?
This is the first time I've posted to a discussion (not counting YKTTW's), and my first time reading this particular trope. Going through it, the examples seem REMARKABLY messy too me, more so than other tropes, probably because of the multiple "types". I know I CAN edit them my self, the question I have is, should I, since it looks like a fairly good-sized clean-up should be done.
To make it clear, what I'm talking about is that I would say half or more of the examples under "Type 1" belong in Type 2, or the "mixed type" folder.
So, should I just go ahead, or should I list everything that I feel should be moved first for discussion here, or what?
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Nothing new or interesting has been added to this in a long time. It's mostly been edit warring. Lockin' it down.
Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty
Hey Eddie, what about if there are factual errors? The Stargate SG 1 entry, for example, gets the name wrong. Senator and later VP Kinsey was the sleazy Type 2. I forget what the good President's name was.
Has this cooled down enough to unlock? I can think of two good anime examples of subversions of the Type 2 variant.
I was about to ask if it was ok to be unlocked as well. Just thinking of adding in Heroman to type 2 as well, considering where things're going in the plot.
If anyone else has the same handle, send a message to yourself. I'll see if I can change my name if needed.
I'll unlock it. Lock is likely to go right back on if it returns to nationalist bashing.
Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty
Internet Wanderer
Trev-MUN: A troll by the name of Skelengel attempted to slip in these edits as misinformed Take Thats—
- reason: corrección ortográfica02/May/10 at 01:20 PM by Skelengel 190.246.192.30Changed lines 16 from:[...] A country full of smug uneducated bullies who got real lucky and like to hide behind their inflated military budget. [...]To:[...] country full of smug uneducated bullies (specially with that stuff of calling themselves America, as if the rest of the american countries were asian) who got real lucky and like to hide behind their inflated military budget. [...]
He also attempted to replace any instance of "American" with "North - American" with the reason "de nuevo, ortografía." finlay removed some of it, but I reverted Skelengel's edits entirely.
I did a DNS lookup on this guy and, sure enough, 190.246.192.30 comes out to 30-192-246-190.fibertel.com.ar. Argentina. The wiki has been getting hit by a lot of ignorant trolls from Spanish and Portuguese-speaking countries wanting to rant about Americans calling themselves American lately.
Someone needs to explain to these knuckleheads that English-speaking countries do not recognize the Americas as a single continent like Spanish and Portuguese-speaking countries do—and that the English language has used the word "American" to mean "person living in British America" over a hundred years before the Declaration of Independence was even written. Oh, and that the whole of the English-speaking world calls U.S. citizens Americans, not just U.S. citizens.
Edited by TrevMUN
Linking to a past Trope Repair Shop thread that dealt with this page: Split, new category?
, started by savage on Apr 29th 2011 at 5:10:25 PM
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman Hide / Show Replies