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aolbain
topic
11:51:42 PM May 16th 2014
This page needs some serious cleanup. It seams to take for granted that every portrayal of homosexuality that isn't 100% mundane is just cheap titilation modified to prevent homophobes from feeling uncomfortable. Honestly, that's even more Unfortunate Implications than the few instances of that actually happening.
Dentaku
topic
12:03:58 PM Dec 23rd 2012
edited by Dentaku
I don't understand this trope at all. So every story depicting lesbians should also address the social implications of homosexuality? This is especially strange when depicting single-gender societies, where same-sex relationships would be nothing out of the ordinary since .. well .. there is only one gender. It could actually be seen as a statement to treat such a society as fairly ordinary.

I am especially baffled about the inclusion of Kashimashi: Girl Meets Girl. Hazumu becomes a girl, remains a girl and falls in love with two girls. There's nothing "discount" about it whatsoever. The Arume in Blue Drop are also unapologetically attracted to females, even though they could potentially choose males as well—which eventually even turns out to be their main purpose for coming to earth in the first place.

So I feel that either this page has to be rewritten to depict only instances where it is clear beyond reasonable doubt that some form of "stand-in" has been used for a lesbian character, or it just has to go. As it is now it only serves to diminish perfectly valid works of fiction.
Sedge
topic
10:33:17 PM May 19th 2012
Why do I feel like there are a ton of Unfortunate Implications in this Unfortunate Implications trope?

I mean, so, what, all gay characters/couples are required to address "real world issues of homosexuality"? What about stories set in a time or place where homosexuality just isn't an issue? Would those count too? Or how about a human couple who exist in a setting where being gay is A Thing, but they're too busy with, say, saving to world, or otherwise doing OTHER THINGS (yeah, crazy, I know) to address homophobia and gay rights?

And how exactly does making one or both of the characters an alien make them not gay? Are we to assume that all alien societies are without gender identity and/or prejudice against homosexuality? If an alien/human couple is used to address "The Issues", do they still not count?

Meanwhile, tell me that human society is going to look at an asari/female human couple and think anything other than "LEBSIANS!". The reality of what they actually are doesn't really matter; society is the one handing out the labels, and human society is totally going to think you're gay. Nevermind that a human woman who enters into a relationship with an asari is probably also into human chicks as well— just a hunch, you know? And I don't see anyone about to say that an asari/male human relationship isn't heterosexual because the woman technically isn't a woman. Never seen anyone complaining that a straight couple didn't provide insight into male/female social issues, either. But I guess gays are the only ones who're expected to live up to all these expectations, right?

In short: what kind of insane troll logic was put into this and oh by the way WE DON'T EXIST SOLELY TO PROVIDE YOU WITH TEACHING MOMENTS. Also, whoever put The Left Hand of Darkness on here should be beaten.
duralict
12:20:22 PM Nov 13th 2012
edited by duralict
It's a sequential editing problem. I cleaned it up a bit, the trope is meant to be characters who appear to the audience as homosexual couples but who in the context of their universe are something clearly distinct from real-life queer people, or on the flip side, treated as queer people in their universe but who are/can be seen as distinct from real queers in the minds of the audience. The asari are perfect examples of the first (look gay, aren't); gay elves or vampires are usually perfect examples of the second (are gay, but you can have them without the real-world baggage). The first form is nearly always Unfortunate Implications territory. The second form is more like Fantastic Racism in that it's a narrative device used to deal with a real issue in metaphorical form rather than directly, or to allow inclusion of the thing without unwanted real-world connotations. Remember Tropes Are Not Bad!

I also fixed the Left Hand of Darkness example because that one was missing the point in two entirely separate ways.
gfrequency
11:29:54 AM Dec 12th 2012
The real unfortunate implication here is the underlying notion that you can't have a human/alien/whatever lesbian couple without it being somehow shady or pervy on the part of the creators — or at the very least, a relationship that's somehow "invalid." Someone over on the Guild Wars 2 page pegged Caithe of the sylvari as a discount lesbian because she's a plant person, but during one conversation she outright says that if you have a problem with someone dating someone else just because they're the same sex, then you're kind of an ass.
Sedge
11:02:58 PM Oct 1st 2013
The problem with just saying "Tropes Aren't Bad" is that the name of the trope is inherently negative. It's "we can't give you proper lesbians because Unfortunate Implications, so here's the weird bottom-of-the-shelf bag-cereal version instead." You can't not label a couple "Discount Lesbians" without implying that, yes, there is something wrong with that.

And if the love between a lizard woman and a human woman who solve crimes in Victorian England is wrong, why the hell would anyone want to be right?
Anonymonk
topic
10:51:40 AM May 9th 2011
I don't get this trope. I've never seen any reluctance among people who think girl on girl is hot to just include a pair of lesbians/bi-sexuals. None of these examples really seem to be saying "they're not REALLY gay..."
c17
topic
04:40:21 AM Dec 29th 2010
I think this page needs a bit of clean up. Half the examples are out right stated to be gay/bi characters (just not human) and/or are not being use because two girls making out is hot (really who the hell thinks [[Fallout Ghouls]] are sexy?)

It's suppost to be, using the excuss that a character isn't human or has a gender or whatever to cover up the fact that they're gay, not "list of every alien lesbain"

Thrythlind
topic
08:55:55 PM May 21st 2010
there is a nominally Ranma fan fic in which Ranma, after visiting Jusenkyo becomes a set of triplets of a race of psychics that use psionic powers to procreate and thus eventually evolved past the need for two genders or a physical delivery system for the other genetic material, all they needed was a womb.

it also indicates that females from outside the race will eventually become like them if they continue to have a relationship that is both physically and emotionally close (a bit different than the sort of forcing it on the girl rape in Blue Drop)

it ended up with one of the triplets with Akane, another with Ukyou and the third with someone else...not sure who
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