MagBas
The Villain Protagonist Bender is the perfect example of a Token Evil Teammate. He enjoys his freedom above all things and will do bad things and disobey orders simply to prove he is The Unfettered. Despite being a robot and having certain lines he won't cross, he is far too greedy, wanton, hedonistic and selfish to qualify as merely Chaotic Neutral. However for a Chaotic Evil character, Bender is a rare example of Even Evil Has Standards; Bender considers Fry his best friend, and has shown considerable emotion at his loss, although he often treats him rather badly. He has even promised to never kill him, the only other exception being Hermes, after he helped Bender come to terms with being imperfect. When given the choice he will consistently side with his friends.
- Fry: You mean Bender is the evil Bender? I'm shocked. Shocked! Well, not that shocked.
Okay, why the example was removed?
Are we sure Randall Flagg is Chaotic Evil? The fact that he also uses both orderly and chaotic methods makes him more like Neutral Evil.
Would it be safe to say Junko Enoshima, from Danganronpa fits here? Her entire motive for ending the world is her own pleasure, she kills her own sister on a whim for the very same reasons, and attempts to take over the minds of her loyal followers (who she admittedly brainwashed).
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If i am remembering well of the Lets Play of the first game, she, at least in the game in question, acts primarily as a sadistic tyrant that uses her rules to cause despair. She acts differently in her other apparitions?
Can a Chaotic Evil character use order as well? Can they still have disdain towards order but see it as a means to keep their minions in line?
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No more(or less) than the other chaotic alignments.
Edited by MagBas
So, on the main page, there are various listed types of Chaotic Evil characters (those who are more Chaotic, those who are more Evil, those who are feral, and knight templars). However, is there a name for a type of CE character that is completely mindless in their actions and will try to kill or injure anything they see?
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I am pretty sure that characters that are completely mindless in their actions are True Neutral(similar to the Tarrasque).
Yes.
- Lucifer, the Big Bad of Supernatural's fifth season. His only goal is to eliminate all humankind and all demons, and he kills numerous people in his quest to bring about The End of the World as We Know It. He even says in "Hammer of the Gods": "Nobody gives us the right. We take it."
Lucifer is closer to Neutral Evil; his rebelliousness is more a facet of his narcissism than actually valuing freedom. He was perfectly fine with blind obedience to God so long as he remained God's favourite angel. It was only after he realized God preferred humans to angels that he rebelled.
[EDIT: Actually, after reading the official distinctions between the alignments, Lucifer definitely belongs here. While wanting to Kill All Humans could go either way, plotting the extinction of demons-his own minions-solidly places him here.]
Edited by ading I'm a Troper!!!
Removed Comedian (again). He's not Chaotic Evil. He does some horrible things, but some of them he does in the name of maintaining order. I'm not even sure I'd agree that he's evil at all; he really seems to me to be somewhere in the vicinity of True Neutral.
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He does horrible things for fun and profit, so the evil part is clear enough. I think Neutral Evil.
What's the reason for deleting the Friendship Is Magic examples? Nightmare Moon is reasonably argued, and Discord and corrupted Trixie are stereotypically obvious examples.
I'm not going to wait for a reply before putting them back, because if I just leave this discussion here no-one interested might ever notice it, but if that editor or someone else does engage in discussion here, we can talk about it.
Edited by 70.33.253.44
There was no reason given for Naraku from Inu Yasha being on this page; you can see my reasons for moving him under Neutral Evil on that page.
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Chaotic Evil isn't just about acting randomly or impulsively, at least not all the time; there are plenty of thoughtful, rational and calculating Chaotic Evil types, and such tyes are often the worst of all. Naraku still sounds pretty Chaotic Evil to me, or at least that he could be either / or. Though not having read the manga, I won't move him.
He's got a slightly Chaotic flavour, so to speak, but there's no real argument for that that I can see. It's just that being especially vicious and doing things For the Evulz is often associated with Chaotic Evil. Other than that, there's no reason he'd be Chaotic.
Is Kratos really a Villain Protagonist? I'm not arguing about his alignment (Chaotic Evil pretty much defines him) but at least he cares about 3 or 4 people; the gods don't seem to care about anyone. Can it really be proven that they're "better" than he is, outside of fan interpretation? It seems to be more of a case of Black-and-Gray Morality.
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The gods do care: They set Kratos to kill Ares in the first game because Ares is going out of line and slaughtering people needlessly. They betray Kratos because he's...doing the exact same thing. The whole opening of 2 is Athena basically saying, "Hey, Kratos, you mind stopping this mindless slaughter?" And Kratos says, "Screw you!" and keeps killing and invading.
Kratos is the bad guy here.
No, the gods sent Kratos to kill Ares because he was a threat to them. Zeus feared Ares (his son) would overthrow him in the same way he overthrew his father Cronos. When Kratos killed Ares and became the new God of War, this same fear extended to him (because Kratos was also Zeus' son) and was only heightened by Zeus being consumed by the evil of Fear from the opened Pandora's Box. Now, Kratos' general attitude and desire to help Sparta conquer all of Greece didn't help at all, but he never seemed to care about Zeus one way or the other...until Zeus betrayed him, and prompted the Roaring Rampage of Revenge. It's a very intentional Self-Fulfilling Prophecy.
Furthermore, why do the gods only seem to care about Kratos killing humanity after he turns against them? In the first game and Chains of Olympus, they left him to his own devices and in fact made good use of his rage, setting him loose on various enemies (like the Persians) and monsters (like the Hydra). But by the time the third game rolls around, suddenly they're pulling the Holier Than Thou card because he's not playing by their rules. Granted, some of their faults are exacerbated by the evils of Pandora's Box, but they actively assisted and encouraged Kratos in opening it just because they were so desperate for him to stop Ares.
Edited by Robotnik
That would still make him a Villain Protagonist at the end of it; being a villain has little to do with whether or not the guy you are up against is as bad or worse than yourself. In fact, the Villain Protagonist who is up against those even worse than themselves is probably the most common type of VP.
Question: Do you think Walter White of Breaking Bad is Lawful, Neutral, or Chaotic evil?
Frankly, I'm leaning more towards Chaotic, especially in later seasons. At first he has a set code, a purpose, and lines he will not cross. Definitely lawful, and perhaps just a darker shade of Neutral. But as the seasons have progressed, his code has been dismantled, and his original motivations are all but lost, and yet he doesn't seem to break stride at all. By the end of season 4, he's the only source of evil left in the series, and it looks like he's going to continue to do evil. He's not in it for the money, since he's made more than enough with Gus, and he's never shown much inclination towards greed beyond what his family needs to live comfortably. If we consider "making meth" to be "evil", then he's really just doing it For the Evulz. Because he's good at it. Because he's proud of his work. Because he enjoys the freedom of doing whatever the hell he wants, and the thrill of riding on the edge of the law. That sounds Chaotic Evil to me.
Edited by Narok
I changed this a while ago, but Serial Killers are not by definition chaotic evil. They can fit any alignment but labelling the average one Chaotic seems to be making the For the Evulz = Chaotic Evil fallacy. Serial Killers may or may not hurt or kill people for fun, or they may have some kind of delusion or mania that compels them to kill or makes them think they have a duty to kill. Several kill for profit, or for power. The ones who kill for fun are usually Neutral Evil, and have otherwise normal lives and killing is more like their "hobby". They are looking to satisfy their evil impulses, but that alone does not make them Chaotic Evil.
Serial Killers are too varied a bunch to neatly fit into one single category.
Edited by masamune1
If you want to argue about Discord being Chaotic Evil, please do so here, not on the main page. I will say that acting kind of randomly is definitely Chaotic. Arbitrariness is the opposite of following consistent rules or principles.
I removed Caim's entry
- Caim from Drakengard is a disturbed, bloodthirsty fellow who enjoys slaughtering his enemies. True, he can show love and affection towards people like Furiae or the red dragon Angelus, but for the most part, he's just happy to kill as many Empire soldiers or monsters as possible.
I fail to see where the Chaotic part is. Can anyone explain to me how Caim is chaotic?
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He's more True Neutral than Chaotic Evil. The only reason why they label him as such it's because of his penchant for bloodshed.
Removed the following
- * The Comedian, Edward Blake, from Watchmen lives to do whatever he feels like - whether it's rape, killing the mother of his unborn child, killing children, burning the Vietcong alive or whatever else happens to enter his mind to suit his mood - Blake is a magnificent bastard that serves only himself (even if he is employed by the US military, he only uses this as a means to continue getting pleasure out of hurting others).
- And yet he is still horrified by Ozymandias' plan to wipe out New York to ensure world peace.
- he wasn't horrified by it. He himself told another that the plan was probably necessary, but he was disturbed because it would be create a world in which he would no longer have a place.
- And yet he is still horrified by Ozymandias' plan to wipe out New York to ensure world peace.
- Arthur Burns from The Proposition. Although he does love his friends, he is a monstrous monstrous man.
- Mr. Jonathan Teatime (pronounced Teh-ah-tim-ah) in the Discworld novel Hogfather. Other Guild Assassins take professional pride in inhuming the target with no collateral damage to bystanders, whenever possible; but to Teatime, killing is art for art's sake.
- Blaz Blue's Yuuki Terumi (a.k.a. Hazama) has, as his overall plot, the desire to create the Kusanagi, the sword that slays the gods. To do this, he's performed almost every single atrocity that occurs in the game towards any of the other characters. And we mean everything. He fucked up Ragna's life by cutting off his arm and kidnapping his sister, fucked up Jin's life by giving him the sword that messed with his mind, fucked up Noel's life by turning her into the Kusanagi (not that anything had gone well for her before), fucked up Arakune's life by turning him into the monster he is, etc. And, thus far, his actions have mainly been For the Evulz. Needless to say, he's kind of a dick.
- HK-47 from Knights of the Old Republic cheerfully asks to kill every living thing he sees; he only has his master's metaphorical leash stopping him from becoming a literal non-stop killing machine.
- Not to mention the ammo and droid body upkeep issues his master takes care of.
- Lord Blazer from Wild Arms 2, who spends almost the entire game bragging to Ashley about how he nearly destroyed Filgaia and mocking him for his idealism. Judecca is a tough call between this and Neutral Evil.
For the Comedian's case, he isn't Chaotic because when you come right down to it, if he was, he would have been disregarding everyone else's rules, including the government. But why would he not take advantage of the government's rules and follow their orders when not only they treat him like an hero, but also because it serves his sadistic pleasure?
For the case of Judecca, how is that person a tough call? He is either Chaotic Evil or he isn't and frankly being a Psycho for Hire, I kinda doubt he is. For the others, where's the Chaotic part?
Edited by 89.243.46.73 Hide / Show Replies
I'm pretty sure Terumi's whole "Doing it all for the lulz" is a pretty good indicator that he's chaotic.
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Arthur Burns is one outlaw that is said to represent the "savagery" aspect in the conflict between civilization and savagery. He definitively counts as Chaotic Evil.
Edited by MagBas
Some New Guy, you are looking at the reason, not the methods. would doing it all for a specific reason like money make him Neutral Evil?
Edited by 78.149.133.6
That's just it. Terumi has no reason for his atrocities. Its all For the Evulz. Committing atroticies just because you can, without any regard to anyone else, is textbook Chaotic Evil.
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Well, in this i agree with the guy that removed the examples. Quoting the archived discussion"Lots of Villains of all alignments have no motive whatsoever. A Lawful Evil Villain being motivated by his hatred of freedom, a Neutral Evil being pure hedonists . It isn't specific enough to Chaotic Evil." And this is mentioned in the page enphasis before of the examples: "It should be clarified Chaotic Evil does not mean the most evil or stupid, in it For the Evulz (it can be a motivation to any villain of any evil alignment), nor even psychotic. Do not simply put a character here with the logic he's really evil, stupid or crazy. " In either case i am reputting Arthur Burns, ok?
Edited by MagBas
As the guy who added Terumi, I believe he qualifies not only because he's doing it For the Evulz, but also because he is almost impossible to predict or control, absolutely hates having to submit himself to any form of authority (any attempts by his fellow villains to control him are usually met with sarcasm or hostility, and he wipes out the people who let him loose in the True Ending), and even seems to be planning to undermine the people he's currently working for in the True Ending of Continuum Shift as well. So I believe he qualifies not just for the above atrocities, not just because he's only doing it For the Evulz, but because in the end the only guy Terumi truly answers to is himself, which, from what I can tell, is what Chaotic Evil truly means.
Well, if this is the case... Terumi definitively qualifies. I am reputting he in the main page.
I deleted Jet again. K Snoic deleted him from Chaotic Neutral earlier, so for a time, he was simultaneously on both pages, showing that he's a contentious example.
There can be Chaotic Evil Well-Intentioned Extremists, but Jet isn't one of them. The titular V For Vendetta is (from the examples I am familiar with) the closest there is to an example of this. He has good aims and (like Jet) caries them out through terrorism, but (unlike Jet) a big part of the character is his anarchism and essentially love of chaos for its own end.
Jet's inclusion would seem to imply that pretty much every Well-Intentioned Extremist is Chaotic Evil because basically, Jet's a quite typical example of a resistance leader being ruthless. If he counts, then you've got to add every single example on The Revolution Will Not Be Civilized to Chaotic Evil.
It's also worth adding that the fact he's the leader of a band kind (IMHO) makes Jet's status as Chaotic somewhat questionable anyway.
Edited by Jordan Hodor
Replying to my own topic. Deleted Jet yet again as well as Ozai.
Ozai is really a pretty good example of Neutral Evil (as for that matter is Azula). Ozai is really pretty good at working within the system and being an Evil Overlord, but he'll break the rules when it suits him (that's really how he became Firelord in the first place). His plan to burn the Earth Kingdom to the ground wasn't For the Evulz, it was an extremely disproportionate response to their disloyalty. He may be voiced by the same guy who did the Joker, but he's a very different character.
As for Jet, I do notice that language about well-intentioned extremists and people who think they are Chaotic Good as counting as Chaotic Evil. Is there actually D&D language to that effect or was that added to justify him as an example?
I guess it needs repeating again, but the emphasis in the Chaotic Evil description implicitly describes very egotistical characters who are so devouted to their own wants, that they don't care about others. V of V For Vendetta is probably Chaotic Evil because he's willing to do things like torturing one of his followers, and if his plan doesn't work out, everyone in England will die, but he doesn't really care- he's devoted to his cause.
In contrast, while Jet does things which are evil, he doesn't do it because he doesn't care- he does it because he doesn't realize the full consequences of his actions- and once he does, he becomes The Atoner.
If anyone in Avatar The Last Airbender is Chaotic Evil, it's probably Hamma. If you think about it, the protagonists are all Good alignments, and Jet is presented as only slightly worse than them. In contrast, Hamma is clearly shown to be a lot worse.
Edited by Jordan Hodor
The whole evil means towards good still being evil comes from official Dn D sources such as Book of Vile Darkness and Champions of Ruins, which states such. There are also official Dn D character that are Evil aligned that fits this kind of statement, for example Rary from Greyhawk who is a Well-Intentioned Extremist(canonivally Neutral Evil) and king Kaius from Ebberon who wants world peace(canonically Lawful Evil). Also is Jet really presented as only slightly worse than the Gaang? I haven't really wathced the show much so i won't really know, but could you please inform me?
What I'm more asking about is the idea that you would call a character Chaotic Evil on the logic that "well, they act like a Chaotic Good person would, but since the do some evil things, they must be Chaotic Evil." I'd also contest the conclusion that "mostly Chaotic plus some unethical choices makes Chaotic Evil.
It's kind of like Miko in Order Of The Stick. She's certainly Lawful, and some of her actions are evil, but she's not Lawful Evil (although I suspect you probably do think she's Lawful Evil).
Do you see what I'm getting at?
Hodor
Nope I do not at all think that Miko is [[spoler:before she killed Shojo]] anything but canonically Lawful Good as she was a Paladin within a Dungeons and Dragons context.
There does exist the concept of a character using "slightly evil means towards a Good end" being Neutral from Heroes of Horror or something, a Dungeons and Dragons source(said evil means being using evil spells such as Rebuke Dead).
The logic is more like " they had a Good goal, but has no problem doing many really evil acts towards it. They have done far too many evil acts so therefore they are Chaotic/Neutral/Lawful Evil"
Still alignment isn't a straightjacket nor should it be one.
Edited by KSonik
Since there aren't official alignments for Avatar character, I can't "disprove" Jet being Chaotic Evil, although the fact that he's nothing like any of the characters who are this alignment in Order Of The Stick is probably a good indication.
"The logic is more like 'they had a Good goal, but has no problem doing many really evil acts towards it. They have done far too many evil acts so therefore they are Chaotic/Neutral/Lawful Evil'"
My point is that with Jet ans Zuko too, they haven't gotten to the "done far too many evil acts" part. It's plausible that they ultimately would have, but they don't.
Hodor
Just saw this reply. Know it's been a while, but my point was pretty much that while Chaotic Evil doesn't necessarily equal "most evil"/Complete Monster, it kind of tends to, and the fact that similarly to Zuko, Jet is treated as a redeemable Anti-Villain supports the fact he's not Chaotic Evil.
Hodor
(reading my old advanced dungeons & dragons 2a edition monster manual in portuguese this exact moment.) Actually, the three evil alignments nearly always are portrayed in one really antipatetic fashion. exist times where Lawful Evil is more sympatetic than Chaotic Evil, exist times where Chaotic Evil is more sympathetic than Lawful Evil. in more ocasions, both are portrayed equally in terms of evilness.(case in point,the Chaotic Evil marids are easily the least evil of the evil genies) By the way, Jordan, if you understand this, WHAT you have against put Jet here?
Edited by MagBas
I suppose it must be because of the fact he is a Well-Intentioned Extremist
Two examples: 1-Gregor Zolnik, one of the few domain lords of Ravenloft that have one conscience plaguing him and is-or at least was originally- one Well-Intentioned Extremist(Well, he kills habitants of other villages and give their meat to the people of their starving village-because this is practically the only food he found)and is Chaotic Evil Note this is not one evidence Jet is Chaotic Evil(this guy is tooo more cruel than Jet), but is one thing that hints is possible one Well-Intentioned Extremist Chaotic Evil-domain lords are supposed to be more evil than more evil characters. 2-read the examples of Complete Scoundrel(listed in the main Character Alignment page)
Edited by MagBas
My Namesakes
Can a character still be considered Chaotic Evil if they're an Ax-Crazy Psycho for Hire Blood Knight who just happens to have Undying Loyalty only to the Big Bad?
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Evil as such? Yes, definitely. At best that's strictly Pet the Dog extremely flimsy Jerk Justifications, not the greater whole; and dedication to evil dictators to enforce their genocidal doctrines definitely does not make somebody neutral. Chaotic? Probably not. It seems more like mixed traits from Lawful Evil and Chaotic Evil. Whether that makes Neutral Evil as an average or not is arguable.
Edited by antva
TheBST
Removing:
- Gaius Baltar of Battlestar Galactica - cynical, cowardly, egotistical, manipulative and prepared to sacrifice anyone and anything for his own comfort and security.
He doesn't fit any of the CE types listed and he's above all selfish rather than destructive, making him Neutral Evil.
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Though it is possible for a CE or LE character to be selfish, I feel you're right about evil selfishness above all else being Neutral Evil
Edited by KSonik
I removed Xellos (Slayers) Entry, Because he is Really Lawful Evil.
- He is totally loyal to Zelas.
Yeah what? So ummm.... to you too. Okay anyways, how can Kefka be considered CE? I mean, he was perfectly willing to follow Emperor Gestalth's orders during the World of Balance part. For that reason, I removed his entry
Edited by KSonik
Even when he was working under Emperor Gestahl, he often it his own way, like poison the Doma water supply. Gestahl simply gave him enough leeway to do as he pleased, and gave him the platform to do so. That, and Kefka was essentially the Puss In Boots. He waited until the timing was just right to take out Emperor Gestahl.
Removed the following
- The Reavers from Firefly. If given half a chance, they'll rape you to death, eat your flesh, and sew your skin into their clothing. And if you're very. very lucky, they'll do it in that order. What's especially ironic about them is that they were created by a group of Lawful Stupid scientists in a botched attempt to find a drug that would render mankind completely good, peaceful and law-abiding.
- Claggart in Billy Budd. He's described as being "naturally depraved" and he wants to destroy the hero so badly (without a reason) that he provokes the boy into killing him, just to be sure he'll be hanged. Although Your Mileage May Vary on the "no reason" part.
- Tira, Cervantes, and Nightmare in Soul Calibur. Soul Edge has rendered them all insane killing machines with little regard for who's on the other side of the blade.
- Kratos of God of War is an Ax-Crazy berserker whose primary motivation is the death of anyone who pisses him off, and many people who don't.
- The best example is the very beginning of the first game, where he kills the ship's captain for the sake of it, then when he encounters him in Hades soon after throws him into the River Styx.
- Several supervillains in the Whateley Universe, including The Necromancer, and Don Sebastiano. Don Sebastiano has a couple helpless mindslaves... so he mistreats and violates them for fun.
where's the Chaotic part?
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Seriously?- insanely killing people for no reason sounds pretty chaotic to me.
Hodor
"Because murder is against the law, and most Ax-Crazy characters only follow their whims when they realize their acts of wanton violence. " I guess, based in this information, at least the Soul Calibur characters, the Reavers and(specially) Kratos probably qualify. By other side, the other entries(Claggart and the Whateley Universe guys) really have zero informations saying why they are chaotic. (Both Claggart and -specially- Don Sebastiano sound only generically evil.)
Well, i am restoring the Soul Calibur characters, the Reavers, Kratos and Akakabuto above.
Edited by MagBas
Jordan, you are looking at the reason. It is not necessarily that which makes a person Chaotic but the way in which he fulfills that motivation. While the Reavers could be said to be Chaotic due to the fact they break the law, what about Kratos, Akakabuto and the Soul calibur characters? Do they kill on a whim or are they more orderly than that, because their entry doesn't say anything about their mannerism?
Aham. The motive that i put "specially" in Kratos is because the entry turns clear that he kills on a whim.
Removed the following
- Akakabuto from Ginga Nagareboshi Gin is an example of a monster with limited intelligence, who enjoys the act of killing just for the sake of killing. He will kill anyone and anything that crosses his path, for the sole reason of crossing his path; if you didn't want to be brutally slaughtered, you should have stayed away from his territory.
Where's the Chaotic part
MagBas
Well i am putting the examples deleted by K Sonik here to if someone decide reput them be easier to them remember put as they fit the trope:
- Ali Al-Saachez from Gundam 00 is a highly skilled mercenary and terrorist who admits that he lives solely for war and conflict, and while he occasionally finds ways to using intelligence, he feels much more at home on the battlefield, where he gets to kill without restraint.
- Ladd Russo from Baccano!. As thoroughly entertaining as he may be, one has to remember that this is a man who casually ignores an opportunity to make a quick $200,000 in favor of blowing off the head of a ten-year-old for shits and giggles.
- Akakabuto from Ginga Nagareboshi Gin is an example of a monster with limited intelligence, who enjoys the act of killing just for the sake of killing. He will kill anyone and anything that crosses his path, for the sole reason of crossing his path; if you didn't want to be brutally slaughtered, you should have stayed away from his territory.
- Arthur Burns from The Proposition. Although he does love his friends, he is a monstrous monstrous man.
- Lord John Whorfin from Buckaroo Banzai. "He's a vicious psychopath, Tommy. Just as soon kill ya as go fishin'..."
- Anton. Fucking. Chigurh.
- Fenrir Greyback, whose sole objective in life is to turn as many children as possible into werewolves... Or kill them, whichever strikes his fancy. And of course, Lord Voldemort himself. In the words of Albus Dumbledore, "he shows just as little mercy to his followers as he does his enemies".
- Mr. Jonathan Teatime (pronounced Teh-ah-tim-ah) in the Discworld novel Hogfather. Other Guild Assassins take professional pride in inhuming the target with no collateral damage to bystanders, whenever possible; but to Teatime, killing is art for art's sake.
- A Song of Ice and Fire: Vargo Hoat and The Brave Companions, better known as the Bloody Mummers; the most vile, depraved, sickening mercenary troop in all the known lands. Yes, probably worse than Gregor Clegane's band of evil thugs even.
- Mind you, Gregor Clegane is about as Chaotic Evil as they come. Whether it's killing children or massacring civilians during wartime or his decision to have an innkeeper's daughter gang raped by his men just because, you never know what Gregor's going to do, just that it will be as abhorrent as possible.
- Lord Foul, the Big Bad of the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant. His ultimate goal is to break out of his Sealed Evil Can, but that can just happens to be an entire planet. It is heavily implied that even if he had no chance of breaking out, he would still kill and/or torture everyone on the planet just for the Hell of it.
- Claggart in Billy Budd. He's described as being "naturally depraved" and he wants to destroy the hero so badly (without a reason) that he provokes the boy into killing him, just to be sure he'll be hanged. Although Your Mileage May Vary on the "no reason" part.
- The Reavers from Firefly. If given half a chance, they'll rape you to death, eat your flesh, and sew your skin into their clothing. And if you're very. very lucky, they'll do it in that order. What's especially ironic about them is that they were created by a group of Lawful Stupid scientists in a botched attempt to find a drug that would render mankind completely good, peaceful and law-abiding.
- Gaius Baltar of Battlestar Galactica - cynical, cowardly, egotistical, manipulative and prepared to sacrifice anyone and anything for his own comfort and security. Also a fine example of how Chaotic Evil and Stupid Evil are NOT the same thing.
- Shadows from Babylon Five are perceived like this in the beginning - an ancient sinister race that emerges from the deepest bowels of cosmos to annihilate everything in its path with world-shattering firepower and insisdios treachery. Truth turns out a wee bit more complicated. Essentially, they ARE everything mentioned above, except that their ultimate goal is to kick-drive their enemies (whom they rather see as students) up the evolutionary and technological ladder. Thus they are perfectly happy when they eventually loose the battle and are driven away to return in a thousand years for another "lesson".
- The Archons of 4e aren't too far behind him. They are disciplined, regimented, highly organized and otherwise you'd think they were personifications of Lawful Neutral or Lawful Evil. However, they are living weapons whose sole reason to exist is to kill everything else that exists. They're not really sentient, as such, just pure, highly developed, militaristic instinct — they don't squabble over power because each instinctively knows how strong it is and how it relates to other Archons in that regard. They do act as mercenaries, but that's merely a way to acquire treasure (to lure would-be thieves to them so they can fight them) and an excuse to kill. They have no understanding of mercy, kindness, love, peace or anything that doesn't revolve around killing... and they have no capacity to learn to understand such concepts. To live is to kill. To kill is to live. There is nothing else to Archons.
- Ashnard from Fire Emblem is a great example of this. He's a Blood Knight who killed his own family to take the throne. He doesn't believe in tradition, and his sole desire is to rule through strength. He finds the idea of loyalty to the dead ridiculous. His only real positive quality is he will accept anyone regardless of class and race if they are strong.
- HK-47 from Knights of the Old Republic cheerfully asks to kill every living thing he sees; he only has his master's metaphorical leash stopping him from becoming a literal non-stop killing machine.
- Not to mention the ammo and droid body upkeep issues his master takes care of.
- Blaz Blue's Yuuki Terumi (a.k.a. Hazama) has, as his overall plot, the desire to create the Kusanagi, the sword that slays the gods. To do this, he's performed almost every single atrocity that occurs in the game towards any of the other characters. And we mean everything. He fucked up Ragna's life by cutting off his arm and kidnapping his sister, fucked up Jin's life by giving him the sword that messed with his mind, fucked up Noel's life by turning her into the Kusanagi (not that anything had gone well for her before), fucked up Arakune's life by turning him into the monster he is, etc. And, thus far, his actions have mainly been For the Evulz. Needless to say, he's kind of a dick.
- Caim from Drakengard is a disturbed, bloodthirsty fellow who enjoys slaughtering his enemies. True, he can show love and affection towards people like Furiae or the red dragon Angelus, but for the most part, he's just happy to kill as many Empire soldiers or monsters as possible.
- Arioch, the insane female elf fighter, is probably Chaotic Evil herself; and so was Manah as a child... and, of course, the Grotesquieries.
- The Big Bads in Baldur's Gate and Baldur's Gate II: Throne of Bhaal (the one in Shadows of Amn is Neutral Evil, with a Chaotic Evil Dragon) are both good examples of intelligent, patient Chaotic Evil.
- Korgan Bloodaxe is pretty much everything you could ask for from an Chaotic Evil Ax-Crazy Psycho for Hire. And he's on your side.
- Not to mention Shar-Teel in the original game, where her Blood Knight tendencies are driven to the extreme due to her unadulterated hatred of men.
- Korgan Bloodaxe is pretty much everything you could ask for from an Chaotic Evil Ax-Crazy Psycho for Hire. And he's on your side.
- Gig from Soul Nomad and the World Eaters; brash, deceptive, impulsive, crude, attempts to solve all his long-term problems (mainly the one that there's people still alive on the same plane of existence as he) with simple short-term solutions (mainly killing everything in sight) and turned the protagonist's homeworld into a slowly dying dustbowl because he thinks wanton slaughter of mortals is fun. Oh yeah, and he's on your side, which turns the game into a rather interesting case of being the Kid with the Leash. As the game progresses, however, he goes into a shift from Chaotic Evil to Chaotic Neutral. That's on the normal path anyway. On the demon path he's Chaotic Evil to the very end.
- Of course, let's not forget the one guy who's worse than that: You, in the Demon Path, who decides to just go kill everyone because he or she felt like it. Oh, and Gig in that storyline? Eventually, you absorb him instead of the other way around if you win the final battle. Fun stuff.
- The other World Eaters also fit into here save for Feinne, who is barely sentient. Thuris could also be considered Neutral Evil.
Mannoroth the Destructor
◊ from Warcraft. He was pretty much nothing more than an engine of destruction who would be released on the enemies of the Burning Legion to slaughter all he could reach. Sure, he contributed to the ordered corruption of the orcs, but that was under the plans of Lawful Evil demons and warlocks.
- Deathwing the Destroyer
◊. Even though he does do a lot of villainous planning, in the end he's a freaking lunatic whose entire soul is broken. He seems to abandon his own dragonflight around the point of Warcraft II so he can continue without them.
- Deathwing the Destroyer
- Lord Blazer from Wild Arms 2, who spends almost the entire game bragging to Ashley about how he nearly destroyed Filgaia and mocking him for his idealism. Judecca is a tough call between this and Neutral Evil.
- Jeremy from Wild Arms 4 arguably started out as Neutral Evil. However, when you face him for the last time, he's definitely descended into this alignment, mainly because becoming part-ARM made him completely Ax-Crazy.
- Kartikeya from Wild ARMs 5. Complete lunatic; who knows why the other members of the villainous five keep him around?
- Tira, Cervantes, and Nightmare in Soul Calibur. Soul Edge has rendered them all insane killing machines with little regard for who's on the other side of the blade.
- Most Daedra of The Elder Scrolls. Sheogorath is the quintessential and charming example, extremely powerful and more likely to send flaming pets raining down on a village as provide useful advice. The only rule he follows is that he won't make things more sane ...except when his curse de-activates.
- Sheogorath is more like a pendulum that swings between Chaotic Evil, Chaotic Neutral and Chaotic Good (He is the prince of madness after all). On one hand, he's a psychopath and Ax-Crazy, on the other hand he helped the Chimer (who later became the dark elves) move from Summerset Isle and form their pre-tribunal culture. He's also very keen on punishing those that deserve it, or teaching lessons to people. And he invented music.
- The Kohr-Ah probably also qualify, as opposed to their Lawful Evil counterparts the Kzer-Zah. The Kzer-Zah believe that the key to their race's survival is to enslave everybody else, thus bringing order and hierarchy to the galaxy. The Kohr-Ah on the other hand just kill. Anyone and everything that isn't them must die.
- Deathjester from Seiken Densetsu 3 qualifies. He brainwashes two best friends of the main characters into attacking them and helps the Dark Lich gain control of the Mana Sword just for giggles.
- In Silent Hill 2 and Homecoming, at least. In all of the other games, the town is controlled by a human being; usually Chaotic Evil in their own right, but in one case, Chaotic Good.
- Erol/Errol becomes this in Jak 3.
- Omega from Megaman Zero series fits here. His creator, Dr. Weil, is a tough call between this and Neutral Evil.
- Omega seemed like Chaotic Neutral to me, he wasn't really aware of what he was doing, he was just following orders from Weil.
- Leon the Black Knight from Yggdra Union is a bloodthirsty, batshit insane warrior who thinks nothing of slaughtering anyone who crosses him. He's probably the most evil character along with the Lawful Evil Mardym.
- Kratos of God of War is an Ax-Crazy berserker whose primary motivation is the death of anyone who pisses him off, and many people who don't.
- The best example is the very beginning of the first game, where he kills the ship's captain for the sake of it, then when he encounters him in Hades soon after throws him into the River Styx.
- In God Of War III, he begins a Heel–Face Turn upon meeting Pandora. While it doesn't push him completely from this alignment he does begin to become somewhat less Ax-Crazy and ultimately performs a Heroic Sacrifice to restore hope to the world.
- Vega/Balrog in Street Fighter series. A suave nobleman by day, and a killer of ugly people by night, he enjoys mutilating ugly people to death using a three-pronged wrist-mounted razor-sharp claw.
- Morinth from Mass Effect 2. Has a genetic condition that kills the people she has sex with, and spends her time manipulating people into adoring her, then kills them with said condition when she's bored of them. Once, she used Samara's Knight Templar code to force Samara to kill an entire village of people she'd brainwashed into going after Samara.
- Bangladesh Dupree from Girl Genius, a former pirate who works with Baron Wulfenbach because he gives her lots of opportunities to kill and torture people.
- Actually, she shows little problems in following orders. That would make her a textbook example of Neutral Evil
- Pierre Buzarde', Psychofor Hire villain of Rubys World . Kills his own Mooks on a whim, talks about torture like an art form, and believes that taking someone alive means he can still render them brain-damaged from asphyxiation.
- Several supervillains in the Whateley Universe, including The Necromancer, and Don Sebastiano. Don Sebastiano has a couple helpless mindslaves... so he mistreats and violates them for fun.
- The dummy in Ruby Quest is probably this.
- Galvatron from Transformers. Megatron's evil with the added flavor of damaged sanity chips thanks to a prolonged plasma bath he took in the planet he crash landed in after the events of Transformers The Movie. He's prone to shooting his own troops just for the heck of it and is as much a detriment to his own plans as the Autobots are due to his psychosis. It reached the point where an episode had his loyal second-in-command sending him to a sentient Therapy Planet by force in hopes of curing him. Not only did it fail, but when the planet interfaced with him in an attempt to lobotomize him, he drove it insane with his madness before killing it then razing its entire civilization to the point where it will take centuries to rebuild.
Restore them. Its just petty vandalism from a guy whose trying to force his own standards of the alignment onto others.
Shamelessly plugging my comics, Oh yes.
^I'm not sure about Baltar- from the sound of him on this site, he does sound more Neutral Evil. The others sound like good examples though- I can't believe anyone wouldn't consider Ladd Russo Chaotic Evil.
Hodor
I just finished restoring the videogames section and at least 1 of the anime portions. (Ali from Gundam00). Anyone want to give me a hand with this?
Also, I notified Ask The Tropers of K Sonik's vandalism.
Shamelessly plugging my comics, Oh yes.
Well, K Sonik edit reason was "That sounds more like generic evil than chaotic evil. please explain how they fit this trope. Also that sounds more like Lawful Evil or Neutral Evil" In other words, he probably not knows "Baccanno!", only guessed that the post not explained why Ladd Russo- and the others- belong to this evil alignment in particular. (said this, he really exaggerated- specially considering more examples have links)
Edited by MagBas
Oh, and he moved the 4e Archons to Lawful Evil, despite the fact that they're clearly listed as Chaotic Evil in the monster manual.
I am seriously starting to think this guy is just a troll.
Shamelessly plugging my comics, Oh yes.
Ok, I will give a hand, but... i guess that you should look in the reply of the note in the Ask The Tropers.
Alright, I'm getting more convinced about K Sonic; he's acting like a pest even if he is doing what he thinks is the right thing. Sending a PM; we'll see if it changes anything.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
I do not believe that Token Evil Teammate is used as example, There are very Examples of Token Evil Teammate that aren't Chaotic Evil
Examples
- Revy: Neutral Evil or Chaotic Evil
- Mayuri: Neutral Evil
- Kenpachi: Chaotic Neutral
- Ikki: Chaotic Neutral Or Chaotic Good
- Mugen: Chaotic Neutral
- Xellos: Lawful Evil
- Hiei: Chaotic Neutral
- Luciano bradley: Neutral Evil or Chaotic Evil
- Lelouch: Chaotic Neutral or Neutral Evil
- November 11: Lawful Neutral
- Emma frost: True Neutral
- Deadpool: Chaotic Neutral
- Lobo: Neutral Evil or Chaotic Evil (Depending on the writer)
- Dr house: Chaotic Neutral
- Belkar: Chaotic Evil
- Mr krabs: Neutral Evil
-If, though it seems to be strange some examples are Chaotic Neutral, I believe that estan is because in spite of not being evil they are mas merciless that other members.
Is "goes around slaughtering people" really textbook Chaotic Evil? Okay, that's a bad way to phrase it — serial killers killing for the sake of killing people certainly do fit the profile, but the introduction speaks of it as though it were the way to go about Chaotic Evil.
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Serial killers that kills regardless of their reasons usually fit with the probable exceptions of those that serves others. And yes going around murdering people is by default CE regardless of your intention. Chaotic because murder is the unlawful killing of people and Evil for obvious reasons, unless you honestly believe that Lawful characters don't have to literally follow the law, like Light who is declared Lawful even though what he is doing is clearly illegal.
There are other factors to consider of course
Edited by KSonik
Oh, I know that. Maybe I phrased it poorly — what I meant to say is, the article treats it as though serial murder naturally follows from Chaotic Evil above and beyond all other things and elements, which is to say, not only "Serial killers are Chaotic Evil", but "Chaotic Evil characters are serial killers". That doesn't seem right.
I also guess this. I am putting a "/or" between the "and" and "mayhem"
Cool. Okay, one other question — what's with this blanket statement (in the same paragraph that describes them as "slaughtering people") about Chaotic Evil characters invariably having too much pride to ever work for someone? That sounds too... well, restrictive for a category like this. (At a guess, it sounds like someone had the Joker and a few others in mind, but it could be something else entirely.) Unless I'm missing something, I move to just cut that part out entirely.
The motive that this was put is because... well, because of the chaotic part of the alignment. Really, makes no real sense Chaotic Evil have a capacity to obey orders different of Chaotic Good or Chaotic Neutral.
Was not this that i wanted say. The posters in the others chaotic alignments have lots of characters that are capable of follow orders-especially in Chaotic Neutral . Look in Kagura and Yusuke Urameshi in the Chaotic Good page, Excel, the Squad 11,Torgo, Achiles, the characters in Paranoia, Scorpion, good part of the Disgaea demons,etc. in the Chaotic Neutral page. By the way, why a lawful character can disrepect orders in some moments(hinted with lots of examples in the lawful pages and outright said in the Lawful Good description) but a chaotic character can never obey(or fake obey and disobey in the exact second nobody is looking) to nobody in no moment?
Edited by MagBas
In fact if there is a discussion between Revy (Black Lagoon) and Bradley (Code Geass), are CE or NE.Both act in a chaotic, but they obey orders.
Following orders sounds more like a non-chaotic thing you know. Also just one thing this isn't meant to be for all situatons but just generally as alignment is not a restriction kit. Also Revy and Bradley are not CE. By the way where are the discussion?
Edited by KSonik
...Yet have a lot of characters in the two other chaotic alignments capable of obey orders in the other chaotic alignments. They must be removed? I am tired of people putting examples that were Neutral Evil in Chaotic Good or Chaotic Neutral simply because they are not more evil despite their attitudes in the "ethical" axis being the same. Is logical that the three alignments of each intance of the "ethical" axis are consistent between themselves. Many persons guess that Chaotic Neutral have more in commom with Neutral Evil that with Chaotic Evil...is this the problem... (I was not rude, was?)
Edited by MagBas
You might want to remove those examples if you actually can be bothered. No, you were not rude by the way.
Anyways the reason I think that part should still stay somewhat is because of the fact that people seems to put in characters that are sadistic and/or crazy in this alignment without caring about whether or not they are truly free spirited characters. Insanity and Sadism are not Chaotic traits. Whim driven' Insanity and Sadism are and frankly, I am personally ticked of when people add examples saying the character is CE with the logic that he is a sadist and/ or insane even if they are able to play along with the rules and is orderly about achieving their goals.
Though maybe I'll change that part slightly. It is not so much "He is CE, therefore he can't ever do this" mentality I have, it is much more "He is happy to play along with the rules way too often to be this alignment. You can't call him CE while he does this constantly and not be wrong"
Personally, the reason why I believe that that part makes sense is that to choose to work for someone else (at least effectively), would usually imply that the character can play along with the rules if they wanted to and make compromises in terms of not doing what they want to in the short terms in order to get what they want in the long term which kinda sounds more Neutral Evil. Remember that Chaotic characters resent authority figures so why would they take orders from anyone else?
So in short, a sadistic, destructive, cowardly serial killer that is caught by the Lawful Evil Emperor, is blackmailed into working for them and is controlled only by fear rather than choosing to obey them may be Chaotic Evil. However a sadist that chooses to work for said emperor and is able to play along with the emperor's rules when it suits them to is not Chaotic at all!
Edited by KSonik
In an attempt to reduce this problem, I added an explanation next to Ax-Crazy in the "archetypes prone to be Chaotic Evil" section."-because murder is against the law, and most Ax-Crazy characters only follow their whims when realize their acts of wanton violence." Sounds good?
Edited by MagBas
Removed this blatantly untrue statement from the Doctor Who examples: "It took a lot of forward planning and political manipulation for the Master get to that point, something that Chaotic evil characters are incapable of." There's nothing about Chaotic Evil that renders villains unable to plan ahead and manipulate. Indeed, exploiting the system in order to bring that system crashing down is the sort of thing intelligent Chaotic Evil villains find absolutely hilarious. (See: Joker, the.)
Would Fred Phelps count as a real-life example? I know the page says don't add any, but this is a pretty obvious one...
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The page doesn't have any because of a little note right before the examples added by the moderators that there will be no real life examples under any circumstances due to it inviting edit wars, and the fact that some real life people might take offence if they see themselves listed as Chaotic Evil, for example. While I myself don't mind real life examples when used moderately and with a good amount of discretion on these pages, it's better to be on the moderators' good side, at least when concerning the evil alignments.
Personally, I don't give two shits if people get offended by being listed under character alignment or not. It is for fun and not to be taken seriously.
As for Phelps...yeah Lawful Evil is more appropriate for him.
Don't worry. That asshole will die soon enough, and the world will be a happier place (especially if you're gay).
I am the lone wolf. I do not lead or follow.
Would anyone be in opposition to the "some men just wanna watch the world burn" quote being put at the top of this page? I can't remember if it was there already and was removed, but I would think it sums up Chaotic Evil quite nicely.
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I don't know, it sounds more suited to Forthe Evulz page than here. After all, not every chaotic Evil character does evil for the sake of doing evil.
This is true, but I think what connects every CE character is an unquenchable lust for destruction. It's not necessarily for evil's sake, but it's there. Plus, when you get down to it, all CE characters want to watch the world burn.
Not necessarily, some CE characters may be simply free spirited chracaters that wishes to say, simply get what they want at the expense of other people. i wouldn't say that an thirst for destruction is what binds all CE characters together but rather the fact that they don't care about conforming to an established order.
Edited by sovvil2008@yahoo.co.uk
That sounds more like Chaotic Neutral. In the defs you mentioned above (which are quite helpful- out of a rulebook I presume?) it's said that CE characters are distinguished by their arbitrarily violent nature. That's what sets them apart from CN; CN wants to do whatever they want, CE wants to do awful things whenever and wherever they want. They might not want to destroy the world or just to be evil for evil's sake, but they certainly love to destroy things. That is, after all, what makes them Evil.
Really? A CE character has to be violent for no reason? The definition I mentioned above also stated in bold that if the CE character is simply out for whatever they can get, then they are ruthless and brutal, probably implying that CE characters don't need to do evil for the sake of doing evil. Yet you pointed out something that seems to be contradictory to what it stated above.
I will have to agree with sowil on this one. A Chaotic Evil character could value freedom above all else but could be simply too sociopathic to care if anyone gets hurt when they exercize their freedom. Lack of compassion and remorse can count as evil every bit as much as sadism and malice.
@Sov: "A chaotic evil character does whatever his greed, hatred, and lust for destruction drive him to do. He is hot-tempered, vicious, arbitrarily violent, and unpredictable. If he is simply out for whatever he can get, he is ruthless and brutal. If he is committed to the spread of evil and chaos, he is even worse. Thankfully, his plans are haphazard, and any groups he joins or forms are poorly organized. Typically, chaotic evil people can be made to work together only by force, and their leader lasts only as long as he can thwart attempts to topple or assassinate him."
Being arbitrarily and unnecessarily violent is part of the definition you posted, man. This doesn't have to be For the Evulz, but you yourself admitted that a CE character out for whatever they can get is still ruthless and brutal. A violent/destructive nature is part and parcel of the CE alignment, which is why the subtitle of "Destroyer" is tossed around with it.
A violent, destructive nature is pretty much the prerequisite for almost any sort of evil. Since evil is about oppressing and harming others, destructiveness comes with the package. I think what Sowil and I am trying to say is that Chaotic Evil doesn't have to represent destruction for destruction's sake. I wouldn't take the terms such as "destroyer" too literally. True Neutral is dubbed "the undecided", but there are many who are Neutral who are perfectly aware of what they are and are commited to neutrality. The terms next to the alignments in the D&D book are generalizations and probably shouldn't be taken with too much commitment.
Actually, a Chaotic Evil character is simply a character Chaotic and Evil. In other words,means the character is "Chaotic" in the ethical axis and "Evil" in the moral axis.
Besides, not all Chaotic Evil people are killers and murderers. There'd be plenty of CE people out there reading this who haven't murdered (about 99.99%, there abouts). The world's not a black & white place; you have shades of grey and black between neutral and true CE. Most CE people would probably just have done minor things, like littering, stepping on bugs, or playing mean-spirited pranks. They just do it on a regular basis, and without the counter-balance of positive deeds that a Chaotic Neutral person would do. You don't have to be a serial killer to be CE, since CE people are into the best interests of themselves, and murdering someone would land them a cell in jail (therefore not being in their best interests). So this quote is a more fitting quote since it shows selfishness, instead of random destruction (yes, a CE person would delight in seeing the world burn down, but not if they lose their life in the process).
I am the lone wolf. I do not lead or follow.
The Clockwork Orange picture doesn't give much impression of chaos or evil at all. I thought a picture of the Joker used to be up here, but I couldn't find it in the history or an image search, so I settled for something I found along the way...
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No... we've pretty much always had the Alex picture.
Besides, it fits. He's a depraved sociopath who goes around beating, raping, and listening to music.
Fanfiction I hate.
Hello Some New Guy
Seriously what is your problem with me? Did you even read my edit reasons? I didn't remove his entry for no reasons, I removed it for a legitimate reason. Psychos For Hire working for someone else would be evil that have no problem doing as someone else wants them to do as long as it serves their goal in the long term. Chaotic Evil being all about the kind of evil that does as they wish, not as other people wishes would not fit the Psycho for Hire archetype.
And how dare you put back in an entry for a character that is clearly not Chaotic Evil. Did you even read the disclaimer before putting back the entry? It clearly said "It should be clarified Chaotic Evil does not mean the most evil or stupid, in it For The Evulz (it can be a motivation to any villain of any evil alignment) nor even psychotic. Do not simply put a character here with the logic he's really evil, stupid or crazy. They will be deleted." Seriously, did you?
It seems that you have got the whole alignment wrong. Chaotic Evil characters are simply free spirited (and sometimes destructive) evil guys that are against any kind of institution, government, laws, tardition, etc. Chaotic evil does not mean "crazy evil" or "evil for the sake of evil." I was not being a vandalist when I removed that entry. If anything, the mere fact that you totally ignored the whole description, never once thinking about whether that character really fit this alignment, would make you the vandalist
Edited by sovvil2008@yahoo.co.uk Hide / Show Replies
Psycho for Hire's are usually Neutral Evil, for example Luciano Bradley, and Yazan Gable can work as a team as long as their killing.
Exactly. Thank you Charred Knight for actually realising that For the Evulz=/Chaotic Evil. By the way, is there any Psychos for hire that are Lawful Evil
Not sure how it can be explained, but there are at least some Chaotic Evil characters who do serve others. The Joker has been on teams from time to time and Belkar from Order Of The Stick is canonically Chaotic Evil and is part of the titular band.
Hodor
Except for the most part the Joker does whatever he feels like doing. Sure there has been some time when he served others but then again, alignment is not a restriction kit but merely a guide.
As for Belkar, sure he is part of the Order of the Stick, but ultimately he does whatever he feels like doing. This has of course caused conflict between him and the other members
Edited by sovvil2008@yahoo.co.uk
Er, not really part of this argument, but are people trying to argue that a Psycho for Hire can't be Chaotic Evil? Because the Joker in The Dark Knight is pretty much the embodiment of this trope and, well, he's hired by the mob. So...yeah.
I can't really say much about that seeing as i haven't watched the movie, but wasn't that a one time thing?
He takes over the mob in the end, but he explicitly hires himself out to them and says "if you're good at something, never do it for free." Joker is pretty much a textbook Psycho for Hire at the beginning, although he escalates up to Big Bad status throughout the movie. He isn't NE, of course, because when you get down to it Joker is just in it for the sadism. If I were to weigh in, I'd say that a Psycho for Hire can be CE depending on their motivations. If they're in it for something material like money or status, I would lean NE; if they're in it for the sadism, I'd go for CE.
"A chaotic evil character does whatever his greed, hatred, and lust for destruction drive him to do. He is hot-tempered, vicious, arbitrarily violent, and unpredictable. If he is simply out for whatever he can get, he is ruthless and brutal. If he is committed to the spread of evil and chaos, he is even worse. Thankfully, his plans are haphazard, and any groups he joins or forms are poorly organized. Typically, chaotic evil people can be made to work together only by force, and their leader lasts only as long as he can thwart attempts to topple or assassinate him."
"A neutral evil villain does whatever she can get away with. She is out for herself, pure and simple. She sheds no tears for those she kills, whether for profit, sport, or convenience. She has no love of order and holds no illusion that following laws, traditions, or codes would make her any better or more noble. On the other hand, she doesn't have the restless nature or love of conflict that a chaotic evil villain has.
Some neutral evil villains hold up evil as an ideal, committing evil for its own sake. Most often, such villains are devoted to evil deities or secret societies."
The thing is that CE characters can be doing evil simply for selfish means while NE characters can be sadistic. I'd still belive the Joker is CE not because he is a sadist but because of the fact that he deliberately wishes to upset the established order. After all, alignment is not an restriction kit but merely a guide.
For example, darth vader has gone back on his deals in the Star Wars movies but is still LE because he wanted to bring order to the universe. In the same breath although the Joker hired himself to the mob he is still CE for the reason I have stated. It is not the reasons why a character does evil, but the mannerism, what they specifically value and how they do it that separates a NE from a CE character.
He also burns the money, and its made perfectly clear that the mobs where fools to hire such a nut job. He just doesn't want to kill people, he wants to see the entire world in anarchy. Not exactly materials you would want for a henchman.
The Joker might play along for a little while but only a complete fool would trust the Joker to play by any rules but his own. The same can't be said for Luciano Bradley or Yazan Gable who show little problem in following orders.
I haven't seen their shows, but those two might just be picking a smarter option- like Belkar in Oot S as of recently, who is faking his Badass Decay so that his teammates don't finally turn on him.
Removed the following
- Shenzi, Banzai and Ed from The Lion King. They're definitely evil - they eat their own boss at the end of the first film - but they're also chaotic. They'd love to kill little cub Simba but they also stand around cracking so many bad jokes about how they'll do it that they don't even notice him getting away.
Shenzi, Banzai and Ed are not individualistic, free spirited nor unsubmissive. They have no problems working for scar as long as it benefits them. The ethically ambiguous nature of these characters (are they truly loyal to their master or would they have betrayed Scar if it served them) along with the fact these characters never came with an alignment means we'll never know which evil alignment they are. However, Chaotic Evil is far, far, far from it
Edited by sovvil2008@yahoo.co.uk Hide / Show Replies
I don't think that being Chaotic Evil means that you won't serve anyone. The hyenas basically served Scar because he agreed to let them have free reign over the Pridelands. When Scar took over, they weren't his enforcers. They basically did whatever they wanted while Scar did nothing. As a result, the Pridelands began to die. A case could be argued for the hyenas being Neutral Evil, but they definitely lean more towards the Chaotic side than the Lawful one.
Except that is exactly how a Neutral Evil is. A Neutral Evil character have no problem serving other people as long as there is some benefit to them. A Chaotic Evil character for the most part does whatever they feel like and not what other people tell them to do. Then again, alignment is not a restriction kit but merely a guide.
Well a case could be made for the hyenas being Neutral Evil or Chaotic Evil. I don't see them as Lawful Evil by any means. I see them as Chaotic Evil myself, but it doesn't really matter that much anyway.
Aside from in the third film, Pinhead isn't chaotic evil. He serves Leviathan and takes whoever solves the Lament Configuration to experience an eternity of pleasure/pain(although he's open to a little bargaining). So, I'd say that's neutral evil.
Removed Yazan Gable, Kyoko, Luciano Bradley and Valter's entries. There mere fact that they are bloodthirsty warmongers would perhaps be enough to qualify for this alignment except for the fact that well... they have no problem being subservient to someone else! The whole point of the Chaotic part in Chaotic Evil is that you are a free spirited individualist that serves no authority. Chaotic characters respond poorly to authority precisely because submitting to them means that you'll have to lose your freedom because they'll need to do as other people wants and not what they want to do.
So in short, Chaotic Evil chacters would never choose to serve somebody else because it would go against the Chaotic part of their alignment. and For the Evulz =/= Chaotic Evil. There have been cases of characters that despite not being Chaotic Evil are in it for fun ie. Shego from Kim Possible
I hope you understand now why these characters are not chaotic evil
Edited by sovvil2008@yahoo.co.uk
Sovvil: you might disagree with me, but i think Bagladesh Dupree is more Neutral Evil than Chaotic Evil. Sure, she's a psycho, but she doesn't exactly resent being given orders, which is an important aspect which separates the Chaotic Evil from the Neutral Evil
Edited by sovvil2008@yahoo.co.uk
So how do we contest examples? About Tower of God - I don't agree withy White (I wrote him up under Neutral Evil before this; just because he's pure evil doesn't make him Chaotic), and we don't really know about Maschenny. Her younger self was *just* a Blood Knight when she wanted to fight Jahad (much like Jahad himself was itching to fight someone who could be remotely challenging), which isn't really evil, and was totally different from what she's doing now. And for her present self, we don't really know what the heck she's doing, though it's true she's admitted to motivation by bloodlust and even desire for chaos and it's potentially pointing towards Chaotic Evil. But is that really all? I say it's too soon to say. You wouldn't really expect a Khun to be that transparent.
Edited by VVK