Main Can T Argue With Elves Discussion

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agnosticnixie
Topic
06:05:15 PM Aug 29th 2014
edited by 199.180.97.211
  • The Eldar's arrogance is also rather unjustified, since for all their power they are still a Dying Race in even worse straits than humanity. And for all of humanity's flaws, at least they did not singlehandedly create a new Chaos god with their debauchery (said Chaos god being the primary reason the Eldar are a Dying Race).

Removed this since it's indicated that humans created not one but three of the chaos gods active in our Galaxy (and are probably going to be responsible for a fourth one). They were also created about 30,000 years before the Eldar empire even fell.
SeptimusHeap
12:46:18 AM Aug 30th 2014
Huh? I have never heard that humans created any Chaos Gods. The Eldar's collective decay did create one (Slaanesh) but that's it.
agnosticnixie
05:16:58 PM Nov 28th 2014
Nurgle definitely, Tzeentch and Khorne are possibilities, and Khorne has a lot of of elder daemons going very far back plucked from Terran history.
SeptimusHeap
02:13:09 AM Nov 29th 2014
I dunno, but you might want to ask here.
VVK
Topic
08:50:11 AM Aug 2nd 2014
edited by 86.50.74.185
Removed this from under World of Warcraft:

  • Some of the Pandaren can come off this way too, particularly Taran Zhu, who dismisses the Alliance/Horde conflict as a petty "race war". Infuriating certain people who may have been fighting their opposing faction for years and then have to listen to a guy with little experience with the outside world and who doesn't know about the actual reasons behind the war lecture them on how wrong it is.

That's basically just saying "I didn't like this thing this one guy said and I would have wanted to argue." There's no "they dismiss your arguments" here; Taran Zhu at that point doesn't dismiss anyone's counterarguments, because there aren't any. I also haven't seen other examples of such an attitude, at least as of yet.

(The above is reason enough to cut the entry. Now let me go onto a tangent: he's also exactly right, even if you could argue it's just a good guess. The Alliance and the Horde are basically defined by what races belong to them, and, for all the backstory's complexity, their animosity is wholly irrational and basically comes down to "We've been fighting those guys (or the ones under the same name) before and now we don't trust them and will rather fight them again than even try to be fair." Do you think it is not typical for a race war to have gone on for a long time and involve people hating the other side?)
Tyrathius
02:55:32 AM Sep 27th 2015
edited by Tyrathius
Alright, I know I'm a bit late on this, but I'm the original poster and I wanted to defend my entry.

First of all, the description on the original article indicates that both "no counterargument given" and "counterargument completely destroyed" are valid for Can'tArgueWithElves. Taran Zhu falls under the former.

Strangely, the humans are not allowed to take offense, demand politeness, defend themselves or heaven forbid mock the elves right back.

Secondly, there are legitimate reasons for the war. First and foremost being the Cataclysm wrecking Azeroth and placing a strain on resources. Then there's the Forsaken's plague, which was developed by experimenting on Alliance citizens while the two factions were at peace (it's use at Wrathgate was unintentional on Sylvanas' part, but it's development was not). And yes, there is also the fact that Garrosh thinks the Horde should rule the world. But what's the Alliance supposed to do about that? Let him wipe them out because fighting is wrong? The Pandaren themselves have fought wars for survival against the Mantid and Mogu. How are those wars any different, except that Taran Zhu tells us they are because reasons?

Thirdly, Taran Zhu is a hypocrite. He claims the outsiders are the ones destroying Pandaria, but he allows his own hatred of the outsiders to make HIM vulnerable to Sha possession. You might think that's the point of the character -to show that no one is above the danger of the Sha- except that Zhu is neither humbled by the experience nor called out on it by anyone else, and as soon as he's saved -by the Horde/Alliance- goes right back to blaming everything on them. It is also his insistence on giving Garrosh a fair trial that leads to his escape and creation of the Iron Horde. Yeah, those peaceful ways really turned out great there.

Taran Zhu is a character who is very obviously afflicted with Moral Myopia, but is never called out on this by anyone else and the story keeps trying to push him as right even when he's clearly not. Isn't that the very definition of Can't Argue with Elves?
VVK
03:56:42 AM Nov 27th 2015
edited by VVK
Those sound like better arguments. They're not the same ones as the original ones in the sense they don't make the old entry as it was written any better. I'd say that maybe it could work as an example if it was written to give some of this information.
118.208.241.228
Topic
06:25:49 AM Oct 5th 2010
edited by 118.208.241.228
Cut this from the ElfQuest entry:

  • That's a bit of a stretch. True, the first humans we meet are genocidal religious fanatics, but we later learn just how much of that is Bearclaw's own fault - largely because the writers (who are, after all human themselves) were uncomfortable that they'd given this impression. The evil humans (who may be superstitious and ignorant, but not stupid) do have reasons for what they do (usually greed or religious fanaticism), and are at least recognized as being fantastically dangerous by any elves who are familiar with humans. Humans who worship elves have usually been manipulated into doing so by villainous elves (especially Winnowill) or mistaken the elves' very real magical powers for signs of divinity. Given the choice, heroic elves prefer to deal with humans as equals, and any humans that get to know them soon learn how to argue with them. If they tend to win arguments with random humans they encounter throughout the story, it's because the arguments tend to be some variation on "No, I'm actually not a demon."

Just because it's a roundabout way of saying it's a Justified Trope...and also something of a Justifying Edit.
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