While that is true, at the same time it's sort of not, considering it holds little weight to the main stroryline. Unfortunately, there is no set release for the 3rd movie in english dub, but with the rate at which the series progresses, it might not until the FKT arc or the Zanpaktou Rebellion.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/149/18/

Yamamoto does "promise" he will let everyone else return safely. Isane and Unohana mention that he will, most likely, not keep his word.

Huh. Must've missed that bit. Then again it has been a while since I read that section. Okay, valid. Objection withdrawn.

You could've checked before objecting, you know.

This same exact thing was deleted a while back as I recall, hence why when brought up a second time I was wondering where the same notion came from.

If it was the second time, that's all the more reason to check first. But oh well.

c'mon guys — it's not like blaze killed a puppy or something.

I've seen worse cases in some pages where Natter / Fan Wank / Fan Dumb derail the page for a while — this was nowhere near as bad and it the event referenced happened in a chapter published more than 5 years ago and in a single page that could have easily been dismissed.

What's that? A dog died in a fire? NOOOOOOOOOOO!

Well I suppose I can settle for Gin's! I can't wait!:P

As a general rule, we suggest that discussion about the series is carried out in it's proper thread in the forums, leaving this place for discussion regarding our page on it.

You shot who in the what now?

To translate, he's saying this page is for discussing the wiki page about Bleach, not Bleach itself. In other words, this isn't the place to start a thread solely to gush about bankai.

I do not "gush".

Except, that is what that comment was, hands down.

AIHT is a heroic version of Orcus On His Throne which is about a villian character who doesn't do anything but sit around.

Although of course it's doubtful Tite Kubo had the Hollowfication in mind from the very beginning... So maybe not Foreshadowing per se.

Could be true, but hard to prove. This may belong on the Bleach forum.

Considering Kubo himself has admitted several times that he's just making the manga up as he goes along (Aizen was supposed to be dead and was never intended to be the Big Bad for example) it is VERY unlikely the hair color is foreshadowing.

But in another hand, he decided that Ichigo's father is a shinigami since the very first chapter... So some elements are planned since the very beginning.

But for this specific point, I don't think so. Orihime's hair looks kinda bleached too, and it's hard to believe she'll be hollowified.

While the idea is cool, I think it is a matter of simply looking too much into the storyline more then anything else.

Except he was lying to fool Aizen. His bankai is really his shikai, but poisonous.

Most definitely Compensating For Something.

its as long has Asteroid Eros is wide its BEYOND Compensating For Something.

Keep in mind that if you remove the hair and eyes a majority of the characters of late look completely the same, baring a few exceptions. Keep further in mind that this has gotten to the point where you could completely cut and paste one persons face onto anothers with little to no changes (Depending on angle) and result in some hilarious changes. Like Aizen showing an expression other than smugness.

Observe◊.

Suffice to say the trope fits completely. Keep in mind it's more a 'face' thing than hair thing, which is practically the only way to tell the difference between many of the characters, the eyes only being a good judge on only select cases. The above example would be far harder to tell something wrong if the person were serious about it.

For example, simply compare Shinji Hirako and Noitora. It's to the point of being uncanny...

OP here (Tvtropes refuses to make me a cookie on this computer)

@RFD. I can still see that it's Aizen's face shooped with Shinji's expression - what you SHOULD be trying to prove to me is that Aizen's head shooped with someone else's features will have to completely look like that person. That hasn't proved your point whether it was funny or not (and I barely found it amusing, anyway).

@Manawyddan. One of my gripes is that people will only provide one or two examples that are similar - you say Hirako and Noitora - sure, they're both slitty-eyed with whalebone teeth. If I recall correctly, their FACES were shaped differently. Noitora had a much longer face than Hirako did. My point is, when does say, Cast of Snowflakes (as the other end of the spectrum) end and where does Only Six Faces start?

Now, I'll admit that yes, some people look very similar, so I'll list the people provided as an example for ONLY SIX FACES that I've seen elsewhere:

• Ichigo-Kaien-Shuuhei
• Hitsugaya-Rukia
• Grimmjow-Ikkaku
• Shinji-Noitora

That makes... 9 out of a very, very big cast (I think we've gone past 150, isn't that right?).

Then you see pages like this: http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315/02-03/ - this is a rather nice random sample of the cast. Look, you can add Soi Fon to the Hitsugaya face stack. But what about Yamamoto? Oomaeda? Sasakibe? We can probably say Shunsui-Starrk have their own stack. But what about Chad's face? Orihime? Isshin? Rose? Komamura? Cuulhorne? Dordoni? ONLY SIX FACES? Does ONLY six faces cancel out all the variety and all of the unique designs? I mean, it sure looks a long way from those harem girls or blue bishounen ghettoes where you can swap hair colors and styles and no one will be any wiser.

IS there a middle ground with Cast of Snowflakes and Only Six Faces?

You're pointing out the outliers with random extremities and kinda missing the point. Byakuya's face for example went from very distinct from Ichigo's a while ago to having practically the same structure, Ishida's in the same boat, to say nothing of Aizen and the like. The point of said image is, were I to remove Shinji from the bottom, you could only barely tell who it was from and even that would be a guess based on the mouth which is his one difference he shares with someone else anyway. Seriously, nose is virtually the same, and the killing point is the facial structure is identical.

Granted, there are quite a few extremities that exist outside the homogenization of the art, but those are mainly due to the fact that Bleach has a few more than usual, and doesn't help anyway since the main ones who do get a tad more of the spotlight are the ones largely at fault.

So, having 2 out of say, 5 features the same (Nose + Basic Face, out of Hair, Eyes, Mouth) design is enough to say that Kubo's designs have Only Six Faces? I pointed out the outliers/unique designs BECAUSE there is variety, which is the difference between Only Six Faces and Cast of Snowflakes (which is degree of variety there is in a cast design, yes?). Now, let's say for a new character design, Kubo juggles between a lot of similar feature types, but I think he has enough variety at hand not to warrant the ONLY SIX FACES trope. (I mean, even everyone's uber example of Cast of Snowflakes - Naoki Urasawa, reused facial features (such as hooked noses, or narrow faces, or pretty eyes) and designs across several manga. I don't see why Kubo who uses a similar technique gets to be slapped down to ONLY SIX FACES when he manages to keep characters distinct).

I can see the homogenization that you've pointed out, but there remains this, even if Ichigo and Byakuya have the same basic face NOW - their eyes, hair and even eyebrows are distinct from each other at first glance. As for that Aizen-Shinji shoop, I think it's just the angle that dictates that the nose be drawn that way, plus the distance, which requires you to draw the feature with as few lines as possible.

But of the main characters, you can put Ichigo, Rukia, Orihime, Chad, Ishida and Renji side-by-side and see that there's a lot of distinction between each of them. Ishida and Ichigo have the same facial structure - but Kubo DID mention somewhere he was planning them as one character (Ichigo has glasses in an old design or something), then split it off eventually.

Basic facial structure being the key is what you seem to be missing. Read Only Six faces. Actually wait, I'll get the relevant bits for you:

"Impossibly Cool Clothes or unusual hairstyles can create an extremely powerful framing effect, meaning the rest of the character's design may be quite simple as a shortcut.

As Asians culturally focus on eye and face shape to identify faces to a large degree, anime and manga typically uses a large amount of variation on eyes rather than changing the rest of the face."

Granted cut out from the larger whole, but as you can see your entire point with that bit was just shot out of the water. Eyes and hair are what pretty much define MOST of the characters in Only Six Faces in the first place. Even with largely similar characters like those in Negima pretty much all have semi-unique hairstyles. You are completely missing the point with this argument. You could have similar features, the problem is when they all start stacking up like that consistently for as many as it has.

And frankly everyone of the examples in there are only six faces pretty much always have outliers. Just having several outliers doesn't change the point, particularly with a cast as massive as Bleach. To use a rather relvant example again, Rakan and that Mama Bear (Entirely valid because you brought up Komamura of all people first) are clearly completely off the map of any of the typical facial structures used in Negima. This doesn't remotely even begin to invalidate it as an example. Just because there exist outliers doesn't invalidate that so many similarities exist for a lot of the more central characters.

Similarly your point with Ichigo and Ishida is completely ignoring how unique in design they were originally. That would fly, if they had always been similar and intended that way, hence why I agree completely something like say Kaien being used as an example to being similar to Ichigo is completely invalid. However they weren't, and the massive similarities in their overall facial structure came about only relatively recently when the HC arc started, which notably is when many of the characters started becoming more similar to each other.

Then, if we're talking about basic face shape, your point about noses drawn the same way was moot since the beginning.

Alright, then we eliminate Komamura from the list since he's distinctly non-human in facial structure. Despite that, we have lots of characters who have different face shapes, like the way Byakuya's is different from Kenpachi's to Isshin's, to Love and Rose as well. The rest is subtle, like when sliding down a scale by minute increments instead of jumping to the next whole number - for example, at first glance, Ichigo and Grimmjow can be argued to have the same face shape. But you can compare the two Jugulators covers and discover that Grimmjow has a bigger jaw than Ichigo. Or that Noitora and Shinji look alike, but Noitora's face is distincly longer. I can't help but think that part of your reasoning is that the frequency of characters 'in the spotlight', as you say, having the basic pretty boy face is the main reason why Bleach is categorized in Only Six Faces.

Read the page. You missed something important. Actually read the bits I actually took the time to post here, because there's something right there that covers that completely if you bothered to read it. In both cases.

Similarly, Nnoitra's face is not that much longer than Shinji's. Seriously. I have no clue where this notion comes from, be it Nnoitra having his mouth open wider in general, the narrower eyes, or the fact that during his initial appearance prior to a majority of the cast starting to lean towards less and less unique bases, but frankly from how they were shown nearer to the end I could frankly have thrown them both under the Ichigo face pile if their mouths weren't so different.

Similarly let's start compiling some actual piles here, off the top of my head:

'Young Man' base: Ichigo/Kaien (Actually similar, hence one example), Aizen, Ishida, Byakuya, Ikkaku, Grimmjaw (See below), possibly Yumichika (Need to check on that one), Hisagi, Ulquiorra (Ignoring extraneous face bits, as seriously without that Hisagi is the spitting image of Ichigo and Kaien), among others I'd have to actually check on, such as Kira and Rose.

Older Woman base: I recall Yoruichi and Harribel looking stunningly similar, particularly around the lips at points. Matsumoto in the latest chapter also reminded me of them in that regard, as well as Unohana and possibly Orihime, though the image of her at the end of the Ulquiorra fight may be tainting that image a bit and she might actually lean more towards the younger side in that regard. May be others I'm not bothering to check for that fall under this.

Younger child base: Hitsugaya and Rukia obviously, as well as Hanatarou and I think Soifon, though I'd have to check on that one. Among possible others like Ichigo's sisters, though I think they were last seen prior to the art starting to shift to less and less unique bases.

Buffer male base: Actually I think this one may be more or less unique given from what I recall, more often than not their chins are of varying different shapes. Granted I recall Isshin and Kyoraku being drastically similar at points, but that was more in individual panel cases than from an overall sense, as I know for a fact Kyoraku's chin was generally narrower.

Keep in mind a good chunk of that is off the top of my head. Granted, there are indeed extraneous cases that can't be argued. In fact, there may indeed be individual panels when they look more different than normal, like you are attempting to argue for the Grimmjaw case (Which mind doesn't fly because let's be honest, overall they do have the same face save in that one case, and that throws that point right out of the water). But that's true of every example under Only Six Faces. You're pulling at hairs to try and exempt this when, frankly, there are way too many at this point for it to not qualify. Granted there weren't originally, back when Kubo's style was sharper and more distinct, when Byakuya and Ichigo were so different they didn't even remotely fall under the same label, but as of lately the art has been moving closer and closer to this point for a LONG while now.

I am still unconvinced, especially if you're telling me that Bleach faces qualify for Only Six Faces if their designs are limited to those bases you mentioned. There ARE other bases that show up, such as an older, thin face base (Sasakibe, Iemura), or baby (Young!Nel) or even fat (Hachi). Arguably, the buffer male base can subdivide into a couple more categories since it's the most flexible, or has more variants. You can keep going on and on how everyone else is slotted into the young male face - but I see a difference between say, Ukitake's and Ichigo's chins so I think there are other details being ignored (but notable only if it was in the buffer male base, eh).

Now, if you had argued that simply re-using a face ALREADY qualifies for Only Six Faces, I might have agreed. Though I think that's the trope's description being vague and too general.

I am going to have to say, I agree with Nyscha here. I think that the Only_Six_Faces trope was ment for Anime's where you can see that there is not a destinct variation between the characters and the way they look, like Gundum Seed, Detective Conan and CLAMP: Detective School. The more characters you get, the more likely you are going to have some overlap in the characters facial features. That said, there is also a difference between being simular and same.

Looking into the actual trope some more, I think that the trope is honestly meant for the Anime where practically all the characters have little to no differentiation between facial features. A lot of the other examples are more along those lines, while Bleach is not. Aka, some people don't know what they are talking about.

Even in the right circumstances it's pretty much only ideal for sniping someone without them knowing you're there. Compound that with the fact that at any range within the size of a 'skyscraper' and it's not much different than a captain's sealed blade anyway and... yeah.

However, I would not suggest classifying it just yet until we discover whether or not it has any additional abilities. With a 13 KM limit and a few abilities to actually make use of that within a range that actually matters and his could easily be quite deadly regardless. Not enough information to say for sure yet.

Speak of the devil. New spoilers. Lol Mach 500

Also, we're about to see Aizen at full power evidently. *prepares for the inevitable onslaught of people bitching about how Aizen is omnipotent*

Though given that's speed of extension, that really keeps it as ideal for sniping really given last chapter. I mean sure if he could retract and extend it in an interval to avoid a blocking blade and cut the person in half before they could do crap that's good, but that begs the question why he didn't do it last chapter. Unless Kubo like thought it up on the spot and invoked Plot Induced Stupidity.

Fridge Brilliance moment.

Aizen, Kyoraku and Shinji got What An Idiot moments for explaining their zanpakuto's abilities to their enemies.

Gin exploited this tendency to distract Ichigo from the real threat of his Zanpakuto, and only properly explained it after Ichigo figured it out on his own.

Magnificent Bastard material?

I'd hardly say he was trying to distract Ichigo. If he was trying to hide it from him, retracting it instantly while bringing it up in front of his face in the middle of a lull in the fight no less was a stupendously stupid move on his part.

I'd say it's more like Gin trying to be Genre Savvy. I don't really know if he succeeeded though...

It looks like you're right about that, but later on things don't go so well for him when he tries to do it again

Feel free, but make sure to put a note of it in the discussion page of the Bleach It Just Bugs Me page instead of here.

...So? This page is for discussion of the page about Bleach, not Bleach itself.

EDIT: And now I look above and see that this is far from your first time. We do have a forum, you know. Knock it off.

Puttin out a new trope for the page. Totally relevant, Spanky. So knock it off yourself. :P

If you feel the trope isn't valid, say so, don't whine about how me suggesting a new trope doesn't belong here(although if it really doesn't then where does it belong? You'd think that the page listing tropes would be the place to suggest new tropes. :hmm).

Though I suppose I could have worded it better. Call it even.

There was nothing to indicate that that was a trope you wanted to add.

It belongs on the page, where you just put in the new trope about the character. If every trope went through here before inclusion, this would be an un workably long page. There's no need to discuss tropes before adding them. If someone objects and you or someone else objects to their objection, then in might come here. For examples on how this works out, see: every other discussion page.

Maybe not to you, hence why I said I should have worded it better. No need to get your panties in a twist.

Poor wording frankly. Had it said something more along those lines, ie: Sight blinded him from such an attack or something of that nature, it'd make more sense as an example.

... so go ahead and delete it. Stop using this page to comment on the inclusion or deletion of tropes and just do it. Seriously, this habit of yours is rather annoying. This is the sixth time and you still don't get it, so consider my boxers twisted.

Had I been able to I would have. At the time I was under an unrelated edit ban. I therefore alerted my fellow tropers to the problem in the hopes that they would resolve the problem. Which they have. Good job.

Also, I don't know where you're getting six. I count four(three and a half), tops. Calm down, you're overreacting.

Frankly it's been held that at this point there's no point in keeping it a secret given the sheer amount of content that would have to be hidden in the process, as well as how long ago that was revealed. At a certain point things like that become something everyone knows.

Actually is, mainly because of the absolutely abysmal delivery of this reveal, even ignoring his piss poor showing regardless. Because of this espada effectively go from 0-10, although the 0 and 10th happen to be the same person. The killer of the argument is the fact that Yammi is tattooed with a 10, which is something that was outright stated to be only true for the espada, not the numeros (Shawlong specifically made this distinction when discussing the espada you'll note). Throw in the absurd notion that your power level can inflate that much upon release, despite being decidedly NOT the case for anyone else even in light of some supremely broken abilities for some, and the argument is hurt more. No matter how you slice it both Yammi and Shawlong are proven wrong thanks to the piss poor delivery.

Ultimately the tattoo is the fatal flaw in arguments that certain comments, despite being kinda arbitrary, would be considered 'foreshadowing'.

Edit: Suffice to say in order to have been true in any way, taken as a well thought out foreshadowed twist, Yammi would have had to NOT have a tattoo depicting ten on him anywhere, been literally the first Arrancar created via the orb (Which is possible without any sort of distinction I suppose), and the tattoo of 0 would have to ONLY appear upon his release.

Stuff like Yammi confirming '10' means 'espada', even indirectly, in his conversation with Hitsugaya would also have been wiser to have been something more along the lines of 'ho, is that what you were told?' or something. Because as it stands it just plain looks like piss poor cover up for a rather worthless 'surprise' later if we DO take it to mean that.

It was my understanding that Shawlong said that only Numeros had two numbers. And the espadas were single digits.

EDIT: Nope, I was wrong. He did say 1 - 10.

Also, I must say that most of your argument is based upon fictional logic. True, no other release creates that much different, but that's apparently Yammy's power. It's Kubo's verse. Only he knows the limits on the rules. Same with the specifics on how the Tattoos were created. There's no point in arguing the logic of how that works, because Kubo could easily state that it was a misdirection tactic.

Also, keep in mind that Yammy referred to himself as "Arrancar Diez", not Espada Diez, as every other Espada did. He never denied being a member of the Espada, but he kept his true power hidden.

See the problem is introducing the logic for such a massive jump in one utterly random case after being consistent with such a thing out of nowhere for the sake of a twist that, quite honestly, went nowhere is incredibly jarring. He's introducing a crap ton of random new details (INCONSISTENT ones at that mind you) in an incredibly ham handed way with minimal to no foreshadowing and it's in that way that it, more or less, falls directly under the Ass Pull label.

Also while he does say Arrancar Diez, this leads into the distinction that he's an espada which he pretty much confirms. Quite reaching to be frank, considering by the time other espada's start introducing themselves this is quite established already. Issue of the tatoo remains regardless.

There was one case I believe however with Nel, in which she says the espada are given single digit numbers, but then the issue of Yammi being 10 comes to a massive head. Nel was outcast YEARS before Aizen got the orb, therefore her knowing about that when actual subordinates in the know do not would suggest that he had a similar deal prior to Aizen even getting it, which cannot be the case because Numeros are directly stated to be numbered based on when they were turned to Arrancar by the orb. While one could argue that the 0-9 was in place prior to getting the orb, which admittedly they don't confirm, the issue is Nel speaks of it regarding the numeros, as in something that happened after she left suggesting her source has to be based on current information. Hence this evidence is on shaky grounds already.

Regardless of whether or not these case are valid though despite they're highly questionable and frankly unlikely nature, the crippling point of only espada numbers are tattooed, and the poor handling of the reveal remain regardless. Hence the label.

But the Arrancar de-masking is already massively inconsistent. Nel, Nnoitra and Szayel have been Espada for years. Aaroniero was an Espada, then became a Privaron, and then became an Espada again, and there's no time frame on this. Halibel was recruited after Aizen's defection. Starrk and Lilynette could have been recruited anytime, because they were Arrancar before Aizen even found them. And Barragan's recruitment is vague as hell, considering Aizen still has glasses.

I know I'm fighting one form of Ass Pull with another, but the lack of any real timeline for the Espada throws any chance of discrediting the Yammy claim. You can't break a timeline when there isn't one to begin with.

The time line isn't in question, Nel's source is. Yammi's claim is already discredited thanks to the existence of a #10 tattoo, which is something that was specifically stated as only existing for the espada. Meaning he's simultaneously 0 and 10, depending on what form he's in.

But Nel was right. She may not have been an Espada for long, but she was right.

The Numeros, on the other hand, are common soldiers. Why would they know something which the elite wouldn't?

See, the problem is the most likely source of Nel's information, given her memory loss and the fact that it specifically references Numeros which were NOT in existence during her time by definition as made by the orb, by general mooks or whatever. Why would she know something that arrancar with, bare minimum, a close relationship with one of the espada themselves don't? Hence the statement itself is kinda arbitrary in that regard, due to several such factors simply not adding up.

Still doesn't change the fact of. As unlikely as her being right is, it's still so.

I say this because the Ass Pull page states that the trope is in play when there is NO foreshadowing or use of Chekhov's guns. Bleach is ambigous enough that we can stack layers of logic one upon another, crediting, discrediting, and re-crediting what constitutes as legitimate ad infinitum and get absolutely nowhere. But that isn't the point. The trope doesn't distinguish between "good foreshadowing" and "bad foreshadowing", just the lack thereof outright.

Which, used well or poorly, is not the case here.

Which is also negated because something that directly contradicts even the extremely questionable foreshadowing in the first place. Keep in mind, the main bit, ie: a moment when the writers pull something out of thin air in a less-than-graceful narrative development, is entirely valid, and the foreshadowing you're attempting to claim is there is flimsy at best, and does not change the fact that the tattoo, even after the reveal, proved it entirely wrong.

You'd have a case were it not for the tattoo. Hell, you'd have a far better one even WITH it if those instances were far less of a reach then they are. But as it stands Yammi confirmed the 10=espada bit with the flow of conversation in his 'arrancar diez' scene, and Nel's information, while accurate, is arbitrary in the way it came out. Ultimately however it's the lack of any logical source for it that negates it as that, and more just bad wording, possibly due to translation.

Edit: Ugh, it's taken me hours to finally find it, but 246 page 10 is the line in question. She basically says Numeros are give two digit numbers. Assuming she doesn't have some other line somewhere deeper into the arc (Which given the flow of things they don't really chat along those lines again so I doubt it), this is the only time she really mentions the numbers upon her reveal. To which I say 'No duh.', we know that already. Keep in mind why that's arbitrary. Yammi is not a Numero in either state.

Edit 2: Wait, there's a second part along those lines when they discuss the three digiters (Fallen espada) in the Baron's first lecture. Ichigo however basically just repeats what Nel said though, so point remains. I doubt they go into it again however so I think that about covers every possible instance.

Again, this is my entire point about Trope Decay. You're following half of the trope, but dismissing the second half. The trope clearly states that a LACK of foreshadowing is what defines it. If we start cherry-picking "good foreshadowing" from "bad foreshadowing", we can add just about anything that any troper feels "wasn't foreshadowed enuff".

The fact remains that Kubo left clues. He also left RedHerrings. As I said before, we can go back-and-forth all day questioning these clues and whether or not one contradicts the other. I'm only asking one question:

Did Kubo foreshadow it? If the answer is "Yes", then it's not an Ass Pull. It's Flip Flop Of God, perhaps, but not Ass Pull.

What foreshadowing however? What you're trying to claim as foreshadowing decidedly isn't. Nel's comment does not in any way suggest it. Yammi's introduction instead confirms the opposite. And the tattoo is a crippling blow that refutes any argument to the contrary. The answer to that question because of this is decidedly 'No', hence it's an Ass Pull.

Okay, it's time for a third party to comment. What you call "no foreshadowing" I call "red herrings and subtext".

You're going to have to define WHY this is foreshadowing then. Because Nel's comment refers to the Numeros, not the espada, hence it's invalid. Yammi's introduction does indeed have him stating Arrancar diez. However the following bits of the conversation have him confirm that 10=espada. Considering this is the first time an Arrancar directly introduces himself with said number (Grimmjaw I believe just gives his name), and it contradicts what you are claiming it to forshadow in the same sweep, it's invalid. The only other information is the tattoo, which we know means espada. There's no foreshadowing in any of those.

"Following bits of conversation"? Hitsugaya asks one question: "Diez? Are you an Espada"? The question is never answered directly. Implied, but not answered. Again, Kubo can make the claim that this was deliberate misdirection. Thus, that doesn't discredit the Red Herring theory.

The same thing applies to Nel. She of all people had no reason to lie to Ichigo, since for all intents and purposes, she appears to be friendly so far. What she told Ichigo about two-digit numbers turns out to be the truth. Therefore, Kubo can claim that this was extremely subtle subtext.

Again, you say "Ass Pull", I say . . .

Answered. He confirms it by confirming what he said. Ie: His whole 'Oh, you know alot' bit. While indirect, that's still confirmation of the information presented. To say you are reaching would be too kind with that. Secondly, the Nel thing is not remotely arguable. She says Numero's have double digits. Whether they are from '11-99' or '10-99' does not change this fact. In short all Numeros are double digits, but not all double digits are Numeros. A fact we know to be true regardless because, whether he's 10 or 0, Yammi's still an espada.

"To say you are reaching would be too kind"

Enough thinly-veiled insults. You've been jabbing them at me the entire time, and it's getting old. You're making your points just fine without it, so enough.

Yes, Yammy's a double digit, and he's also an Espada. The fact remains that I personally see nothing you say that discredits what I've said.

The plain fact of the matter is, Yammy never says "I am Espada 10". He says I'm an Arrancar, I'm an Espada, and 10 is my number. False Reassurance in action.

He says I am ten, and confirms that ten means he is an espada in that same moment. Your arguements are, again, reaching at best. However that in itself is not the point. The point remains that he's tattooed with a ten. This alone tells us that ten is a number for an espada. That it changes to 0 when he releases tells us that when he's released, he's for some reason the strongest espada. Ergo his comment is wrong, Shawlong's is wrong, Nel's remains right if only because it doesn't cover any espada, and this twist came with no form of foreshadowing, and instead directly contradicts several things we were told before and at that moment, the most direct and blatant of which being the Tattoo bit. Hence, Ass Pull and quite honestly Ret Con on top of that.

To argue either scene as foreshadowing would require it actually confirming what you say (Edit: Or, more accurately, it being far more abiguous in the Yammi case than it is, and a tad more direct in reference to the espada in the Nel case). False Reassureance would fly, if there wasn't something else that directly contradicted that same thing on top of those same instances you are trying to claim are not defined enough to be used as confirmation (Which is accurate in the Nel case as it only refers to the numeros, but not the Yammi's introduction bit). It's that part that you seem to be missing.

We're going in circles now. I'm waiting for a third-party to comment.

Oh, and nice. Another stealth insult at the end with the "you seem to be missing" bit. Smooth.

So far, the discussion seems to be in my favor, but here's the link, so that you can provide your case:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=mx96yyblxz45o3dlou000ws2&page=1#6

Looks more to me like the discussion is against you. Your case rests entirely on an incredibly vague set of coincidences, in addition to you writing off every comment that doesn't support your side as Blatant Lies told for the purpose of Aizen wanting to conceal his staggering superiority to everyone in the series for no reason whatsover.

Kubo himself has evidently confirmed that he's not above changing characters at the last minute(Aizen = Big Bad.), meaning that aside from the substantial amount of very clear evidence against Yammy being foreshadowed, and the distinct lack of any such clarity in the argument for foreshadowing, we have a precedence for inconsistency.

Could it have been Fore Shadowing? Yes. If I walked outside this very moment is it possible that a winning lottery ticket would blow right into my hands? I don't see any reason why not. Is it within the realm of possibility that the universe will cease to exist before you finish reading this? Certainly.

I grant you that Kubo taking the time to foreshadow is slightly more likely than either of those other two examples happening, but the fact is that in all probability the only reason you see Fore Shadowing is because you want to see Fore Shadowing.

Firstly, it's obvious that when I posted that last comment, RFD hadn't posted.

Secondly, RFD is the only person who has brought forth detailed arguments against my case. Every other person in the thread sided with the idea of "give the author the benefit of the doubt". Unfortunately, none of them had read Bleach.

That being said, the second-to-last paragraph you said there is my entire point. It's possible that it was foreshadowing. My entire reason for bringing this up is how easy it is to claim anything as an Ass Pull, even if there's the possibility of subtext. There's a person who came into the thread and proved that exact point near the end, yelling that everything in Bleach was an "Ass Pull"—even the one thing that can be proven wasn't.

Whether you agree with my arguments or not, you saying that alone is backing up exactly what I've been trying to say.

Possible and is aren't the same thing.

I refer you to my previous comments about Mary, Queen of Scots.

Thus I refer you to the statement of "giving the writer the benefit of the doubt", which was pretty much the reaction of everyone in the trope thread, save for two.

Better to deal in absolutes than coulda-shoulda-wouldas

I've obviously dropped it. It's not a big deal.

Hard to call it bad honestly. There's no doubt that compared to the beginning the art has gotten far more aesthetically pleasing, and he did quite good water and ice work during the incredibly dull Hitsugaya and Halibel fight. Really the main gripe now though, other than the obvious Only Six Faces, would be the laughable pencil thin limbs he's been shifting to of late.

I'm serious, worst case yet came in the form of that spoiler cover page with Gin. He looks beyond anorexic. Seriously, there's thin and then there's stick figure.

Firstly, Barry is evil so that's Orcus On His Throne not Achilles In His Tent. Secondly, not liking people isn't a part of either trope.

In any event, I've changed all of them to Zanpakuto for the sake of consistency.

Possibly What Measure Is A Non Human

Because before he did any of that stuff, he spent most of the fight twiddling his thumbs while his subordinates were fighting Aizen's guys. Of course, there seems to be a hard rule in Bleach that no one can interfere with someone else's fight unless they're about to die.

Er...if someone complains about a fight being short that doesn't mean he wants excruciatingly long fights from then on. Not wanting something to be too short or too long is totally valid.

Anyway, this is something for the forum.

Harribel vs. Toshiro pretty much solely had the issue of being trippy by power scale standards and rather drull all in all (As well as Harribel getting jipped but that's more a general issue). Which in itself the anime sort of fixed, albeit with it's usual shoddy handling. You want too short, that'd be Kensei vs. Wonderwiess, full stop.

And it's all well and good to tie up plot threads. Doing a piss poor job while raising more questions than answers as well as galaxy sized plotholes and massive asspulls, and generally botching it all up by absolutely horrid pacing however in doing so is hardly endearing.

Thanks Uratapu.

I've always felt that it was terribly clear that Harribel playing with Toshiro. Not once was he able to slow her down.

That's one of those translation contentions that are hard to resolve. However, Vizard is an actual word (archaic term for mask), and to my knowledge it's the word Kubo intended, so it should probably stay.

The problem with that is that "vizard" is pronounced "vizzard", not "visored" like the katakana. We should be using the official English anyway.

Yeah, "Visored" is the correct spelling, and fits with the apparent theme of Soul Society/the Gotei 13 using English words to name certain important general/Shinigami-related concepts and terms, such as "Soul Society", "Hollow", and "Soul Candy".

Kubo said that he wanted the seven deadly sins to be the Espada's themes, but didn't want to be limited to them. I don't think there's any indication that it had anything to do with the original espada.

He made some comment about the original Espada, may have been some conjecture or him stating facts, but it's there. I inferred from that that Kubo, as you said, didn't want to just work with the sins, so he came up with that backstory, but again, the context of the translation is rough.

Yup

So track all the individual subpages. It might be easier to keep up now, actually, since new edits won't be bumped off within a week. As to why it was done, the page was so long it was breaking the filing system, just like the character pages did.

Soi Fon's the official English. But yeah, it should match the official translation.

Alright. I meant to type Soi Fon, don't know how that g got there.

Well shoot now I'm confused because on the bleach wiki it says Sui Feng there too. This is just weird because Soi Fon has been the English translation since she showed up, why would they switch it now?

Because they're working to different standards, although I don't know what they are. Ours is that if there's an official translation, that's what we put, and for English that's Soi Fon. And by the way, you can edit previous comments.

It changed suddenly because the second character book showed up with "Sui-Feng" in big block letters. Except by then we'd already had a war over how to spell it and "Soi Fon" had won, mostly. The Bleach Wiki is probably just going with Word Of God instead of the official English translations. Fanfiction.net has also converted to Sui-Feng.

And if there's any place we can depend on for objective information and not people viewing things as they want to, it's fanfiction.net.

The manga and anime have it written as Soi Fon in the English translation, so that's what we put. There's not much to it.

A quick question - if the names here are following the official English release, why aren't the ones of the baddies? I never read the Manga in English, but I heard some of the Arrancars' names (like Starrk or Harribel?) differ from the spellings Word Of God confirmed.

True. I'd like to work on the problem at some point (as well as the issue that many entries have with asking questions about the future that is now the past and such), but there's so dang much it's intimidating.

To answer your specific question, it's not a qualifying spoiler to say that the villains, especially minor villains which all the Espada but Grimmjow and Ulquiorra count as, die. Go ahead and unspoiler that stuff; if you're not sure, try to spoiler tag as little of the text as possible, and all tropes should be unspoilered.

Does anyone have something to say about it? Otherwise I'm going to delete it since it gives a different impression than was actually intended.

Do you have exact quotes for this? I could have sworn the quote in the trope page was accurate at least for the fan scanlation

No, I don't. I was just watching the anime since I don't remember the manga events very well. It's during Ichigo's bankai training. The question is basically "So, Ichigo, do you want to fight? Or do you want to live? Or do you want to win?" Whereas the response is "To fight with no goal is meaningless, and to merely live on is failure (or something, I don't recall what he says here) so I WANT TO WIN!"

Under that basis, he's not making a choice that wasn't laid out before him.

The scene occurs during Ichigo's fight with Kenpachi, not during his bankai training.

Zangetsu's words are very clear here (fanlation).

The relevant anime scene is Episode 39 where Zangetsu does indeed say "Do you want to fight? Do you want to win? Or do you want to live?" The official Viz translation (Volume 13) is the same as the anime episode (three options).

That makes the quote a case of Take A Third Option (manga fanlation) and not in the anime and Viz translation. A Japanese speaker with access to the raws would be best for making a decision on who is right and who is wrong. For now, it's probably best left removed.

Don't know about anyone else but I`d love to see one. Some of the game characters are quite good though I guess its a case of YMMV. Off topic but I'm probably a bit biased about it, because one of my friends got me the game on a whim and it made me interested in Bleach in the first place.

I've started it, though it will need help :) http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BleachThe3rdPhantom

I'll try to help when I get the time and have learnt how to use Tv Tropes tags.

The Tatsuki entry I made in the Tear Jerker section was one I made myself. I simply saw fit to delete it, because it was the result of everyone who was affected by "Book of the End" that drove Ichigo over, not just one person.