Sorcerer in training
- ElfQuest has a famous one in its main Canon: when Blue Mountain collapses, all of the Gliders die, and for... some never explained reason, their spirits can't find the afterlife yet. Rayek, whose powers were previously canonically limited to hypnosis and lifting things, absorbs the spirits into his own body and decides to go on a quest to accompany them to the Palace (where elf spirits generally go when they die). Clearbrook and Treestump decide to accompany him on his quest... although even they don't seem to be quite sure why.
There's some problems with this entry. It reads like someone who hasn't read or forgotten most of the original series and what was established there, as well as what was earlier established in the Blue Mountain destruction arc itself.
1) The elves explicitly do not have an afterlife separate from the world they exist in. It's explained clearly by Timmain at the end of the original 20 issue series that elf spirits remain in the world of the living -spirits who were wolf-blooded in life go where they will in the world, while those who were pureblooded in life are bound to the palace.
2) The Blue Mountain elf spirits need to get to the palace after their bodies' deaths. Earlier, Rayek had been in telepathic communion with them, as Winnowill held them all in thrall. They know he knows where the palace is. Why wander the world looking for it when Rayek can guide them straight there? It's definitely faster than following the Palace's vague "pull".
3) While the spirits being able to hang out in Rayek's body is unexpected, it has been previously shown via Savah, Suntop, and Winnowill that the relationship of spirit and physical body in elves is flexible -in the original series, Winnowill was able to hold Savah's spirit prisoner at the edge of her mind, suggesting some level of overlap in the "space" Winnowill and Savah's spirits are occupying.
4) The power of the Gliders coursing through him makes Rayek very loopy, rather like a human high on various drugs. It may not be a harmful state in and of itself, but it can affect judgement and perception, which can lead the person into a harmful situation (and elves have enough bad press on Abode). Clearbrook and Treestump accompany Rayek north in order to provide that judgement and perception. (Plus Clearbrook wants to see One-Eye again -his spirit can't properly roam until his body is well and truly dead.)
Edited by Candi Coming back to where you started is not the same as never leaving. -Terry Pratchett
Previous Trope Repair Shop thread: Complaining
, started by MagBas on May 13th 2012 at 8:39:00 PM
In Anime Examples - Death Note, the big revelation in the finale (...) seems to be more a coup de théâtre (plot twist) than a Ass Pull. Also, in Dragon Ball it's not clear why the fact that Goku's heart stops and restarts is an example of Ass Pull. It is simply a way to create suspense and it is not ungraceful, as the definition of Ass Pull demands to be.
Edited by ryochan
Doctor
Unless there are strenuous objections, I'm going to remove The Wise Man's Fear entry. Not only does Kvothe listen to a campfire story about Felurian (apparently set in the woods that they're camping in) before meeting her, which outlines exactly who she is and what she does, it's with her that he experiences the moonless night, which is one of the three things that the title of the book refers to.
Okay whoever deletes all of the entries in Naruto needs to either give an explanation for all of the deleted entries or revert all of the changes that are made before this, you have 3 days before I will inevitably revert it.
Edited by Loekman3
So Ass Pull is listed as YMMV, Deus ex Machina as a subtrope of Ass Pull, but De M is not YMMV. Anyone able to explain that?
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I'm not sure I agree with you, Larkmarn. See, a Deus ex Machina can, theoretically, be planned out, even well done, though it doesn't necessarily have to be. An Asspull is specifically described as a "less-than-graceful narrative development." Basically, DEM is in the context of the plot, Asspull is in the context of the writer. Since we typically don't know what is going through a writer's head, we can't definitively say that the writer has done an Asspull. However, the DEM page specifically lists criteria for something to be a Deus ex Machina, all of which must be fulfilled if it is to be posted on a work's trope examples list. Further, DEM is not specifically stated to be a subtrope of Asspull. Granted, this post was from over a year ago, so things may have been different. Long story short, DEM is sometimes, but not always, an Ass Pull, and vice versa.
So, quick question: I know the banner says not to include this on a work's trope example page, however, could exception be made if there is hard, first hand evidence of the writer doing this (such as the writer admitting as much)? Thought I'd ask.
Edited by Mateus_ex_Machina
Slayer of YMMV complaining magnets
"Unmarked spoilers" says the description. Why everyone still uses spoiler tags?
Number one fan of characters that appear only once and ultimately were a recurring character either in disguise or trying a new image. Hide / Show Replies
It's more like an advisory.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows: Is it just me, or do none of the examples really fit?
- The Hallows being Hallows doesn't change a thing about the Cloak or the Elder Wand, and it's mentioned long before the Ring is used for its fabled purpose. And as the entry itself admits, there are hints, few and far between or not. I mean, you might as well say that the Sorting Hat was an ass pull. The Hallows were a plot element hinted at, then properly introduced, well before the concept of them became relevant.
- The Parseltongue example. Harry said "open" in Parseltongue and Ron imitated it later on a whim. I mean, kinda, but it's not really any different from mimicking someone saying "hello" in French for the purpose of saying "hello" to someone in French. If anything, the ass pull was the incident Ron imitated - Harry suddenly going "oh wait I can open the locket now, at a properly dramatic time, instead of earlier".
- The Ministry of Magic example is more of a plot hole or retcon, and certainly not an ass pull, especially since they don't actually track him, specifically, for anything. Not then, and not in previous books either.
- The Fiendfyre... okay, yeah, I can grant that one. It was more convenient than necessary, but that really only matters for a Deus Ex Machina, I suppose.
Enter the void
I expected the main page to be a load of complaining with massive justifying edits under each one, but instead it's actually tidy!
Do what the clock does, keep going.
This is a title.
- The show does some egregious ass-pulling in the Grand Finale, when [[spoiler:Aang manages to avoid killing Firelord Ozai by "energybending" to cause him to lose his firebending abilities. Until that point, the existence of energybending had not been even slightly hinted at.
On the subject of Energybending as an asspull. The case was made (sort of) that it was foreshadowed in that pains were taken to establish that Aang wanted a non-lethal solution to beating Ozai. This may foreshadow that he would eventually find such a solution, but it in no way justifies energybending or invalidates it as an asspull.
You fell victim to one of the classic blunders! Hide / Show Replies
So, I pulled this last summer for the same reason and I don't know who added it without checking this page for discussion in the first place.
First off, your argument seems to...well, it seems to weaken the position of this being an Ass Pull. They'd been building to the need for Aang to find a solution for some time and he found it after a lot of soul searching and communing with the spirit world. So, by this point we'd already established at least three different types of bending that defied normal description - Metalbending, Bloodbending, and...uh....Boombending. We'd already seen hints of the spirit world intervening for Aang to teach him things or get him out of trouble.
I think at this point, you have to prove that it IS
"(A) moment when the writers pull something out of thin air in a less-than-graceful narrative development, violating the Law of Conservation of Detail by dropping a plot-critical detail in the middle, or near the end of their narrative without Foreshadowing or dropping a Chekhov's Gun earlier on."
You yourself established the foreshadowing and we already know the Lion Turtle itself was hinted at earlier - hence the Chekhov's Gun.
Oh, and I pulled the Great Divide entry because it's definitely not describing this kind of moment in fiction.
Edited by 69.172.221.4
I don't know about last summer, but I only recently readded the example because, after I presented a counter-argument, you failed to respond for three months. And then I kinda forgot about it. [lol] I won't wait nearly as long this time before readding it if you don't respond. Maybe three days. ;)
Metalbending and Bloodbending and what the Combustion Man did are specific sub-types of bending that rely on manipulating the given element in a certain way to achieve an unusual result. This can in no way be used to justify "Hand on face, no more bending lolz"
Foreshadowing that the Lion Turtle would appear does not justify them pulling Energybending out of thin air. It would be like...Idunno. If, in Star Wars, they had Yoda show up and give Luke an Anti-Sith Lord Gun, guaranteed to kill Sith Lords or your money back.
Foreshadowing that Aang is willing to endanger the lives of everyone on the planet rather than kill someone does not justify them pulling Energybending out of thin air. It would be like...if, in Star Wars, they said that Palpatine could only be defeated by a Jedi and then gave Luke magic Jedi powers instantly instead of making him train for them.
Just because A and B were foreshadowed doesn't mean C was.
He, in fact, did not find his answer by soul searching and communing with the Spirit World. He tried that and received 2/4 vote for "Kill the son of a gun." one vote for "Whatever you decide, don't wuss out." and only one for Screw Destiny. His soul searching and his communion with the spirit world turned up answers he wasn't willing to accept, but lo and behold, magic turtle comes with completely new, completely unheard of, technique to stop the bad guy without killing him.
This wasn't achieved through any sort of real process, considering your options, weighing your actions. It's just magic turtle —> Hand on face, no more bending. Regardless of whether the turtle's existence was established, the fact is that he just happened to show up at the last minute, apropos of nothing, and give Aang a solution to his problems without any sort of actual foreshadowing as to whether or even how this solution can possibly exist.
This is the very definition of Ass Pull.
No comment of The Great Divide. I didn't add that.
Edited by 216.99.32.43 You fell victim to one of the classic blunders!
Argh, sorry about the delays in replies - I keep getting a bug with my watchlists where it will simply drop discussion pages without telling me.
Anyway, any Ass Pull is already negated from the start if we can establish a pattern of foreshadowing. It can be weak foreshadowing in your opinion, but it's not an Ass Pull if you can establish the setup was there in the text. It has to come completely out of nowhere. Energybending does not, Aang Taking a Third Option does not, even the Lion Turtle does not. And yes, he did commune with the spirit world - how do you think he gained the knowledge from the Lion Turtle in the first place? They flat out told us he did it like that. And it's not even the first time we've seen an Avatar using abilities gained from other spiritual beings (remember the times Aang physically turned into Roku and Kyoshi and had a completely different power set?)
This isn't the definition of an Ass Pull, this is grasping at straws.
Key word if. if we can establish a pattern of foreshadowing. We can't, as there WAS no foreshadowing for energybending. It did come out of nowhere.
Okay, so he was set up to look for a third option. The form that third option took was never previously established, not just weakly established, or weakly foreshadowed, not established or foreshadowed at all. There was nothing to suggest it was possible. Nothing to say "Hey, by the way, this is a thing."
The right way to go about this is to have him remember that one time where the wise old man said in a cryptic manner "Look out for them moving islands, eh?" or something like that.
The wrong way to go about this is "I'm gonna go off on my own and meditate with the spirits or whatever —fourteen hours later— well, I didn't get the answers I wanted, but what luck I was actually on a lion turtle and he gave me this technique that didn't exist before now. Que suerte!"
You will note that I did not say he didn't commune with the spirit world, I said that he didn't find his answers from doing so. When the answers he received weren't the ones he wanted to hear, he asked the lion turtle for help. The Lion Turtle gave him energybending which was not, in fact, foreshadowed.
Like I said before, just because A and B were foreshadowed doesn't mean C was. It bears repeating that the solutions he was looking for weren't achieved through any sort of real process, considering his options, weighing his actions. It's just magic turtle —> Hand on face, no more bending.
Regardless of whether the turtle's existence was established, the fact is that he just happened to show up at the last minute, apropos of nothing, and give Aang a solution to his problems without any sort of actual foreshadowing as to whether or even how this solution can possibly exist.
This is not grasping at straws, this is firmly holding onto the barefaced, clear as day conspicuously discernible, thesaurus usingly, distinctly distinguishable, glaringly obvious truth. Otherwise known as "a moment when the writers pull something out of thin air in a less-than-graceful narrative development, violating the Law of Conservation of Detail by dropping a plot-critical detail in the middle, or near the end of their narrative without Foreshadowing or dropping a Chekhov's Gun earlier on."
There was no detail to conserve, no shadow to fore, no Pavel to shoot the gun.
Edited by 216.99.32.44 You fell victim to one of the classic blunders!
"Key word if. if we can establish a pattern of foreshadowing. We can't, as there WAS no foreshadowing for energybending. It did come out of nowhere. "
Wait, wait, wait. So we've done tons and tons of foreshadowing that Aang needs a solution to a conflict, he needs time in the spirit world to do that, and hey, there are MULTIPLE types of bending that defy normal description. What do you think the point of teaching about Bloodbending and Boombending and Metalbending was but proof that there are far deeper ways to manipulate power? Oh hey, I guess Toph suddenly learning Metalbending is a big ol' Ass Pull right there.
And the fact that we finally learn that Energybending exists IS the Ass Pull? We don't learn it at the last minute, we've spent all this time building up to it and establishing that bending is a broad enough topic. And for that matter, they don't just pull it out at the last minute - it's done over, officially, four episodes. Not the last episode. The exact mechanism of Energybending isn't itself an Ass Pull, that would be Aang never doing any amount of work to solve his problem and then suddenly solving his problem with Energybending. As usual, Aang was forced to reconsider a problem and find a solution from someone who knew more than he did. The moment we learned about Energybending (i.e. "Hand on face, no more bending") was in a flashback to information Aang had learned before that. You know, it's called solving a mystery?
We were already told that he'd left the earthly plain, so Aang finding a spirit at his exact location that could aid him would make sense given that we can assume he's in the spirit world. Oh, and we already had to know the island was somehow alive since nobody could find it after he left.
And yea, I'm sorry, but...we already knew that the Lion Turtle existed before this episode, references to them actually showed up eight times on the show, as early as Season Two. This was being built up for some time. Hell, the original (non-canon) pilot even had a massive statue of one.
Are you suggesting the only way Energybending can't be an Ass Pull is if we already knew it existed? That we can only accept the Lion Turtle if someone specifically said "Oh, Lion Turtles! They're islands!" Because that suggests that in spite of even you admitting there is tons of foreshadowing leading up to this moment, that it doesn't matter because we weren't explicitly told "Hey, there's non-lethal bending stealing powers out there!"
I'd also point out that the Lion Turtle storyline is in and of itself a really clear reference to the very Asian mythology that most of this show is based on. Specifically, one Avatar of Vishnu is a giant turtle that carries the world...and another is a half-man, half-lion that helps a small boy defeat an evil king. Yea, that's a Viewers Are Geniuses moment right there.
All right, I'm going to pass out because I think my thoughts are growing less coherent as the evening wears on.
OK, my thoughts is that unless the story-breaker aspect of energybending was foreshadowed, this is a valid example. It's also well written enough.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
*points to YMMV banner at top of page* The example is neither factually incorrect nor is it really misrepresenting anything, so it should stay on the page. Although without the "egregious"; that is overstating things.
That said, in my opinion, I don't think it's quite an Ass Pull because of the amount of foreshadowing that Aang would find some way to Take a Third Option and that that way would be something out of the ordinary.
Like I said the last time Metal and Blood bending were brought up, they are in no way related. Bloodbending and Metalbending are specific subtypes that rely on manipulating the given element in a certain way to achieve a specific outcome. HOFNMB is not just a type of bending that defies normal description of bending it is a type of bending that did not exist before it was used. There is no prior evidence that it was possible to remove someone's bending by altering the energy in their body, or even, to my memory, that it was possible to alter that energy in the first place.
We actually do learn about it at the last minute. While the lion turtle gave Aang the knowledge to use it in the episode before, it wasn't until the very end of the very last fight that it actually becomes a thing. We spend no time building up to HOFNMB and this is not a case of bending being a topic broader than previously believed.
Once again. A and B, yes. C, no. They are connected, sorta kinda maybe in the way that Mace Windu was connected to Palpatine, but not the same. What part of this defies you?
The exact mechanism of Energybending is an Ass Pull, just like everything else about it, because it was never previously established that altering the energy in someone else's body to block bending ability is, you know, a thing.
Aang never did do any amount of work to solve his problem. It was all but literally handed to him o a silver platter after he pissed and moaned about how terrible taking a life is and how the other Avatars didn't tell him what he wanted to hear woe is Aang.
Aang was forced to reconsider a problem, but then that reconsideration was tossed aside by magic turtle —> HOFNMB
Even accepting that he was in the spirit world, which is really just splitting hairs as to where he was handed the ultimate solution to his problems, the spirit world is a big place. Why is it that he just happened to end up in a spot where the lion turtle was?
The lion turtle being foreshadowed is not up for debate. I already acknowledged that it was. I also pointed out that it doesn't matter because just because the lion turtle was foreshadowed doesn't justify energybending.
Yes and no. Energybending isn't an asspull just because we didn't already know it existed, it's an asspull because there WAS NOTHING THAT REMOTELY HINTED AT ITS EXISTENCE and because they just randomly threw it in at the last second because they wrote themselves into a corner as to how Aang can stop Ozai without killing him.
Ok, there was a statue. Big whoop. How does a lion turtle being foreshadowed in any way justify the existence of a technique that, for the...what? Tenth time now? Did not exist prior to its introduction, which shows up at the 11th hour, without ANY hint that it was possible.
Ironically, I've been arguing against this moment being a Deus ex Machina, though it defies it only by the most flimsy of technicalities.
Lion turtle is an asian myth. Ringading ding. That that has nothing to do with the fact that energybending is an Ass Pull.
Edited by 216.99.32.43 You fell victim to one of the classic blunders!
I personally call Energy Bending an Ass Pull, since while new subtypes of Bending were established, entirely new forms of bending were not. We have this Avatar Cycle that explicitly talks about 4 bending types going back countless generations, but this new one that got rediscovered?
Bloodbending as a means of disabling bending was better foreshadowed, since the use of pressure points to disable bending was established, using Bloodbending to go inside someone was established, so combining the two makes sense.
Right, sorry for vanishing for a week again. Since we got more people in on this to break the stalemate (thanks guys), it seems fair to put this back without quite the loaded language it was using. Takin' a shot.
- Avatar The Last Airbender has a base-breaking example in the series finale, where Aang, after struggling for some time over whether or not he should kill Fire Lord Ozai, is suddenly able to Take a Third Option and strip his bending from him using a previously unknown and largely unforeshadowed technique known as Energybending. Wordof God from a post-series artbook states that they'd planned on this story development well before the show was even picked up by a kids network. It doesn't really negate that even though there's a lot of hints that Aang could find an option like this, it is a very sudden and last minute development.
Ditto.
Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
How is this YMMV? The criteria are distinct and Tropes Are Not Bad.
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Because it's up to the viewer if the methods explaining the "ass pull" are good enough.
Why does this keep getting deleted? (In the section for Bleach)
- During his fight with Ulquiorra, Ichigo is killed by Ulquiorra's Second Resurrection. Orihime screams his name a few times and Ichigo magically comes back to life by transforming into a completely new, utterly over-powered Hollow form that takes out Ulquiorra and disappears, never to be seen again. No explanation is given for this whatsoever and there was never even the slightest hint that it was possible.
The only justification that's used by the person deleting it was Ichigo's inner hollow telling Ichigo not to die in Bleach chapter 221 - that doesn't exactly indicate that said hollow will literally bring Ichigo back from the dead with super-powers if he does. In fact, given the context, it's more like "if you die, then I die too" or "I'll be back eventually to take your power for myself - don't die before then, 'kay?" than what the other troper is claiming.
Pulled the entry on Avatar since by it's own entry it doesn't qualify.
I just deleted a part about Ed sacrificing the gate as an asspull when it was heavily talked about that Ed has to sacrifice something for Al. Several people pointed out that it wasn't an asspull, and the person who wrote it doesn't really explain why it's an asspull.
If you explain to me why it's an asspull I won't object to putting it back up.
Actually think it might be better to take this bit into discussion:
- The Hougyoku's involvement in the development of Ichigo, Orihime and Chad's powers despite being dormant and sealed inside Rukia's soul. Arguably its function as a Reality Warper rather than just something to dissolve the barriers between Shinigami and Hollows.
- This may not be an Ass Pull. Urahara theorized Orihimie's and Chad's power resulted from Ichigo's leaking reiatsu but if that were the case why would Tatsuki, Keigo and Mizuiro and Ichigo's siblings not develop any power except for being able to be sensitive to reiatsu? Chad and Orihime on the other hand both were involved in a fight (Acidwire/Shrieker respectively) against a Hollow where Rukia was present and they were not really in a position to help. One where they might've "cursed their powerlessness"...
- The Hougyoku's involvement in the development of Ichigo, Orihime and Chad's powers despite being dormant and sealed inside Rukia's soul. Arguably its function as a Reality Warper rather than just something to dissolve the barriers between Shinigami and Hollows.
The ultimate problem I'd have with this assertation attempting to justify is because even though the others did not gain more direct powers in line with Orihime and Chad, they have in fact been slowly evolving. Tatsuki clearly has an excuse in that regard, being highly protective of Orihime and having been involved in not one but two cases where she was completely unable to do anything, so she too might have been affected for a time by the orb, but the issue is Mizuno and Keigo, both of which also have been developing abilities for no explained reason despite having not been caught up in any of the shenanigans.
when the cause of their developing powers was Ichigo, this made sense, as each of the people developing powers were in some way close to Ichigo, Ishida even outright notes this when he makes note of his folly in going to protect his sisters from hollows when his friends also have unnaturally high spirit pressures at this point. However if the root cause of any kind of development is cursing their powerlessness from the bottom of their hearts, Mizuno and Keigo make no sense as to having any kind of development, having not been in any situation remotely like the others.
The most obvious explanation as to why they didn't have more direct powers, prior to the change of course, would be that they hadn't been put into such a desperate situation as to where they could easily use them when the chips called for it, Tatsuki being seeded or drained in both instances of high danger after her development, and Keigo being protected by Ikkaku more or less. Basically they, unlike Chad and Orihime, didn't have a chance to pull them out in that regard. But now with the change it leaves more questions about stuff that previously made logical sense prior to this.
Andrew
Some have pointed out the energybending from Avatar: The Last Airbender helps to make sense of Aang's other Avatar powers if we assume that energy == chi == spirit. I still think that it qualifies as an Ass Pull simply because the series doesn't effectively connect the dots on screen, but I believe an argument can be made that this is a case of insufficient exposition that leads to an Ass Pull in practice.
MagBas
- When a creature evolves just at the right time, often in the middle of a battle. Especially noticeable as the game mechanics only allow evolution after a battle has ended. This is not the only game mechanic to be played around with in the anime ("Pikachu! The horn!" in his battle against Blaine's Rhydon, for instance). The horn moment became a Reverse Funny Aneurysm when later games introduced Rhydon's ability to attract lightning with the horn, protecting allies at no cost to itself.
- Averted during Ash's battle against Boring Invincible Anti-Hero Paul when Ash's Chimchar evolved into a Monferno while battling Paul's Electrabuzz. It then promptly lost quite thoroughly, cementing the contest's status as a Curbstomp Battle.
- Some episodes before the Gym Battle versus Fantina, Ash fights with their Turtwig in a One-to-One battle against Paul and their Honchkrow. Turtwig was going to be defeated, and in the precise moment, Turtwig evolves to Grotle. It looks like a shine of hope for Ash, but not, he evolved only for being curb-stomped by the quick attacks of Honchkrow. Justified in that Turtwig, when evolved to Grotle, gained a lot of weight, making to Grotle unable to move with ease and quickness.
a) Evolution during the combat or thanks sheer will power was something started being showed really early in the plot. b) This thing is extremely commom in the anime. C) Is impossible note anything remotly weird with this without knew about the games.D) The characters are not playng the video game.
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I would like to edit the introduction to include acknowledgment of what Shocking Swerve used to represent before being merged into this trope.