Main Anti Sue Discussion

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10:40:37 AM May 9th 2017
Out of curiosity, how can you tell the difference between an anti-sue and a joke character
01:43:28 AM Feb 3rd 2014
Okay, so an Anti-Sue is so ridiculously flawed as to be pretty much impossible. Then what should we call a (deliberately) Deconstructed Mary Sue? In other words, a character that would be a Mary Sue, except that the other characters react realistically to him/her, in accordance to the Law of Dramatic Motion ("For any given character action, there should be an internally consistent appropriate reaction from other characters/the setting.").

("Well-written" doesn't count. Nice try. -_^)
02:43:14 AM Feb 3rd 2014
edited by
A character as this is not necessarily badly-written - Escapist Characters are not necessarily badly written, after all.
10:24:26 PM Feb 3rd 2014
I was joking about the "well-written" part. A well-written Mary Sue is still a Mary Sue; it's just that most Mary Sues are what they are because of poor characterization and plotting, to the point where Mary Sue is synonymous with poor writing in general. (Hence the wink at the end.)
10:53:02 PM Sep 14th 2011
does anyone think Precious should be considered an anti-sue?

first off: -she's obese and unattractive -has an abusive mother and was sexually mostested by her dad -her dad later dies and is blamed by her mother along with everything else -she has AIDS -she lives in poverty. -got kicked out of school -she's illiterate and it's implied that she's mentally slow -she gets pregnant twice and has an inbreed son who has down's syndrome
10:00:16 PM Oct 9th 2011
edited by AcePhoenix
No, because attractiveness is relative, she has many redeeming qualities and traits, and tries her best to better her situation.
06:20:48 PM Sep 22nd 2010
Perhaps we should add a paragraph to the entry illustrating the differences between a Jerk Sue and an Anti Sue? I'd moved the Anime entry as she sounded more like a Jerk Sue, as do a couple of other examples in there (Wolverine for instance, who for all his assholishness IS generally highly competent, albeit highly competent at being a killer).

(unregistered user)
03:48:58 PM Oct 18th 2010
I have to agree with this. While they are simular and can at times cross over, they are different. I just can't personally word it.
08:24:58 AM Jul 13th 2010
edited by Iaculus
Ethan is 'the most hated character in webcomic history', Russo? Really?
08:30:58 PM Jul 22nd 2010
There are worse webcomics, but taken as a whole, there's nothing worse than CAD. Ethan is a misogynistic, juvenile, disgusting sociopath who continually outwits all of his opponents, and lives his dream life, despite being an ignorant, man-child, waste of flesh. Fuck him.
11:42:20 AM Jun 25th 2010
Has the idiot who's been vandalising this page been IP-blocked yet?

Sheez, I will never get the amount of rage that the locking of the Sonichu page provoked.
10:59:15 AM Jun 14th 2010
Does Ash Ketchum count? I mean, he's also listed under Boring Failure Hero, which doesn't generally overlap with Anti-Sue.

Anti Sues, after all, are characterised by their myriad flaws making their phenomenal success-rate all the less believable.
01:08:22 PM Jun 22nd 2010
Definitely not an example. At worst, he's shown to be stupid and a bit hotheaded. He's also shown to be enthusiastic, hardworking, and friendly, which are traits people tend to like in him.

Cutting the example.
12:17:54 PM Jun 29th 2010
The example was put again. I am cutting a second time.
03:46:38 PM Oct 18th 2010
Yikes. No, I wouldn't say that Ash Catchem is an Anti Sue. His flaws help him achieve his goals, yes, but they also hinder him just as much. His sucess rate is chocked up too, to a lot of dumb luck. His dumb luck is actually believable, even funny at times. He also goes through character development, learns from his mistakes, albiet slowly.
01:15:59 PM Jun 1st 2010
I want to know why usagi is deleted as an anti sue because I have arguments to prove it
07:34:14 AM Aug 20th 2010
01:15:49 PM Jun 1st 2010
Removed this:

  • Sailor Moon Usagi is a well written character, she is confirmed by "Wordof God" as an author avatar and is often portrayed as average. however her life is an example of Wish Fullfillment were she is the mesanic archetype of the show , has of course superpowers , has unbelieavle [[Nakama close friends]] she is so beautiful that ends atracting both males and females and a secret princess.
  • Her ending is even more obvious in the Wishfullfillment department were she ends as the immortal and incredibly powerful queen of earth as neo queen serenity perfectly happy maried with the love of her life and etenaly young with all her loved ones.

Can someone more versed in Sailor Moon proofread this... example (?) and see whether or not it fits this trope?
01:24:47 PM Jun 1st 2010
Want proof? seriously I like usagi she being an anti sue doesn't mean she isn't a good character here is some proof this same wiki confirms her as a nesianic archetype , author avatar and that she atraccts even females.

Here is proof she ends as an immortal queen callled neoqueen serenity
01:35:03 PM Jun 1st 2010
Proof she ends as neoqueen serenity immortal incredibly powerful and ruler of earth
03:22:33 PM Jun 2nd 2010
Even with this... "proof", it... doesn't really tell me anything. In addition, the grammar is simply asinine.
04:49:53 PM Jun 2nd 2010
Cool for you I am not here to please you
04:51:25 PM Jun 2nd 2010
Besides double check the grammar is already fixed in the new version if you dont like it I am sorry deal with it.
05:11:25 AM Jun 10th 2010
edited by Iaculus
Dealt with it. The example has been deleted, and is here on the discussion page in case anyone with a better understanding of the series than me (and a better grasp of the English language than masterchief) wants to reconsider adding Usagi.

  • Usagi fromSailor Moon is a well written character, that is often portrayed as average (she wakes up late , inmature , bad grades) however what makes her an anti sue is that her life is an example of "Wish Fulfillment". She is the mesanic archetype of the show , has superpowers , has unbelivable close friends ( see Nakama ) she is so beautiful that ends atracting both males and females , is secretly the princess of a magical kingdom and of course has a destined true love with a perfect boyfriend acording to the author mamoru is the perfect male it's also important to note that she confirmed by "Wordof God" as an Author Avatar
  • Her ending is even more obvious in the "Wish Fullfillment" department were she ends as the immortal and incredibly powerful queen of earth "neo queen serenity"(confirmed by "Wordof God" as the mos powerful character), she is perfectly happy maried with the love of her life and eternaly young with all her loved ones. More information on her ultimate suetopia destiny can be seen here : .

Whilst you are not here to please Komodin (or me) in particular, you are here to provide TV Tropes with examples of an acceptable standard. An Anti-Sue is someone around whom the universe revolves despite their possessing no inherent merits of their own. Does Usagi achieve her (apparently phenomenal) successes through her own virtues of kindness, determination, or whatever? Does she undergo Character Development that helps her partially or completely overcome her flaws? If the answer to these is yes, then she ain't an Anti-Sue.
01:48:32 AM Jun 23rd 2010
edited by Iaculus
Huh, looks like we've got a minor edit war over this going on after all. Vegetto/masterchief/whatever, others have chewed you out for your example not meeting the definition of an Anti-Sue, not a Mary Sue in general, and for its appalling misuse of spelling, grammar, and the accepted example structure. For the love of Odin, please make some attempt to address those concerns before simply reinstating it as it was.
04:48:48 PM Jun 26th 2010
She IS generally shown as being sincerely sweet and kind (although she does have her selfish moments), as well as believing that even villains can be redeemed (at least in the anime), and the reason the four original Senshi are her friends is because at least some of them didn't have any real friends until she came along. If Usagi is a Mary Sue, she's more of the Purity Sue variety.
05:04:30 PM Jun 26th 2010
Indeed. Wish Fulfillment alone does not qualify one as an Anti-Sue. From the example description, she just doesn't seem to be flawed/unpleasant enough.
08:51:10 PM Jul 1st 2010
Agree with the above, example removed yet again. Usagi has a solid balance of the positive traits of the Messianic Archetype and negative This Loser Is You quirks; she's got too many positive qualities to be an Anti-Sue (compassion, selflessness, unwavering loyalty to her friends and a refusal to compromise when it comes to doing the right thing), and too many negative This Loser Is You quirks (Big Eater, lazy student, has frequent bouts of childishness and immaturity, etc) to be a Mary Sue of any sort. I'm inclined to think that Chief and the rest are agents of the Hatedom and I'll be keeping an eye on this page and the other Mary Sue pages to take Usagi's example down again if they stick it back up.

And chief? Learn to actually make arguments instead of just linking to pages.
03:43:13 PM Oct 18th 2010
My knowledge of Sailor Moon is limited, but... the only anti-sue trait that she may possibly have is that she is clumsy, and it is made clear that with her, it isn't a flaw. As Rainbow pointed out above, if any Sue she is, it is the Purity Sue or the Classic Sue.
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