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Stoogebie
topic
07:44:52 PM Jul 23rd 2013
Okay, can we...clean up the main page? I mean, first of all, the entry is a bloated Wall of Text, to put it bluntly. Now, I know many tropers feel pretty strongly about this issue, so it's very easy to go off on a tangent about morons who think cartoons equal kid shows. But in general, I really think we could cut down about half to 3/4 of the text and still get the point across.

Second of all, tying a bit in with the whole "morons who don't get that animation isn't just for kids" thing, note that everyone has their own opinion and some are allowed to feel a certain way about animation. Their loss. Not liking a cartoon or refusing to watch one will not cause a kitten to die. Keep that in mind people!

Last but not least, I've been dying to check out the page for Avoid the Dreaded G Rating. See ya!
superimperial
topic
09:36:01 AM Feb 17th 2013
Hey there just wanted to let you know that i a really like the bell canada thing there that you put because i Really hate bell! ;)
MagcargoMan
topic
05:07:15 AM Aug 22nd 2012
edited by MagcargoMan
Here's an example: People complained about a ad that was inappropriate because it aired around the time Family Guy does. Read it, and you'll find that they are implying Family Guy is suitable for people that it shouldn't:

Link here

Just thought it should be mentioned.
MrMediaGuy
topic
04:16:06 PM Apr 19th 2012
Page started to turn into Gushing About Shows You Like, so I fixed it.
MrMediaGuy
03:27:01 PM Apr 22nd 2012
Hey, should I remove the Spawn example too? Because it also feels like Gushing About Shows You Like.
CrimsonFlameKnight
01:55:30 AM Sep 2nd 2012
I say it should be added back in again. Just remove the parts that seem too gush-y, or edit them to make it less gushy. Like it or not, Spawn:TAS is a pretty noteworthy cartoon. How's this for an edit:

Better?
MagcargoMan
topic
05:44:46 AM Mar 23rd 2012
edited by MagcargoMan
HYPOCRASY: Read Invader Zim's entry Invader Zim deserves a mention. Nickelodeon specifically asks its creator to make it a show for older children, but wound up marketing it between Sponge Bob Square Pants and The Fairly OddParents. Predictably, it only lasted a season and a half. (Ironically, Nick later opted to whore it out in crossovers meant for said other shows' target demographics).

SpongeBob and FairlyOdd Parents are basically being called "Kid's shows", when they appeal to a much older audience as well.
bhl88
02:24:34 PM Mar 28th 2012
Posted something for temporary usage. Until someone finds a better pic, I'll leave it there.
miru
07:35:47 PM Apr 19th 2012
I noticed all the not for kids ones are Japanese. Could you add some western ones?
miru
08:15:39 PM Apr 19th 2012
I noticed all the not for kids ones are Japanese, could you add some western ones to the image?
miru
08:18:13 AM Apr 21st 2012
Added Family Guy to the image.
MagcargoMan
07:11:15 AM Jun 16th 2012
Stoogebie
07:34:01 PM Jul 23rd 2013
Hi there first poster: Okay, first off, the question regarding SpongeBob SquarePants and The Fairly OddParents is that, even though they may have appeal with an older audience, that would be called a Periphery Demographic. I have never seen Invader Zim, but if you think it's worth putting on the main page then by all means go for it.

Also, please fix the word 'hypocrisy'. It's really bugging me.
starfox
topic
12:15:44 PM Mar 4th 2012
In the western animation section, a "Quote above' is mentioned in the Teen Titans section. Why is'nt the quote in the quote archive and what was the quote!!!???
Webby
topic
02:25:38 PM Aug 7th 2011
I assume the Playing With page was meant to be cutlisted, so I went ahead and slapped it onto the list. It got cut a little while ago.
MegaJ
topic
09:29:43 AM Aug 5th 2011
Why was this cutlisted? Please remove.
nuclearneo577
topic
08:18:28 AM Aug 5th 2011
Didn't you mean to the the playing with page?
Rilkar
topic
05:17:31 PM Jul 23rd 2011
"One quote is sufficient. Please place additional entries on the quotes tab." Do we really need to say this 21 times? (Though maybe we do)
Tuckerscreator
11:15:48 AM Feb 9th 2012
I'm thinking the same thing. Holy moly, who needs that many warnings?
TheOldVictrola
topic
04:50:42 PM Jul 16th 2011
I think there's a vaguely annoying intellectual elitism in a lot of these entries. Somehow if a show like Avatar has mature themes that somehow makes it less of a kid's show, as though kids don't appreciate depth too. Simba desperately tried to stir his father's corpse; that doesn't make The Lion King a movie for adults.
Webby
10:49:17 PM Sep 9th 2011
I agree. People seem to think depth = Not For Kids. I can't vouch for my child self's intelligence, but my neighborhood has sa lot of smart kids, and it's not uncommon to overhear them picking apart and discussing the finer points of whatever animated movie they just saw.

('Course, for each one of those, there's one who's just looking for fart jokes. But all in all, kids are pretty awesome.)
Shota
topic
08:56:28 PM Jun 26th 2011
I just want to mention that that photo of the LA Blue Girl is hilarious.
411314
topic
05:20:15 PM Jun 7th 2011
In the article, it currently says that Gargoyles and Batman: The Animated Series have "pulpish subject matter that makes them poor examples to use when trying to convince people of animation's merit."

What does "pulpish" mean?
smokedpoacher
08:55:42 AM Jun 12th 2011
Of or pertaining to pulp fiction; lowbrow; possessing entertainment value but perhaps lacking literary merit. In other words, if a piece of animation involves its main character fighting evil robot versions of himself, then it probably shouldn't be used as evidence that 'cartoons aren't for kids anymore'.
PumpkinLore
10:40:03 AM Jun 26th 2011
But isn't dismissing a work because of having "pulpish" subject just as bad as dismissing a work because it's animated? That sentence seems a little off to me because of that.
stinkingbishop
02:54:23 AM Jul 3rd 2011
edited by stinkingbishop
Not really; the point is that if you want to persuade someone that animation can handle adult subjects then it'd make more sense to show them Grave of the Fireflies or Waltz with Bashir, rather than a children's superhero cartoon.
411314
11:53:56 PM Jul 23rd 2011
Of or pertaining to pulp fiction; lowbrow; possessing entertainment value but perhaps lacking literary merit. In other words, if a piece of animation involves its main character fighting evil robot versions of himself, then it probably shouldn't be used as evidence that 'cartoons aren't for kids anymore'.

But there's no reason you couldn't write an adult story about someone fighting evil robot versions of him/herself. The sentence, as written at the time, was definitely an example of the Scifi Ghetto, so I changed it.

Not really; the point is that if you want to persuade someone that animation can handle adult subjects then it'd make more sense to show them Grave of the Fireflies or Waltz with Bashir, rather than a children's superhero cartoon.

It wouldn't make much sense to show them any children's animation, superhero or not, though some may debate wheater Gargoyles or Batman: The Animated Series are really "children's" or "family entertainment". In any case, I've corrected the sentence so it doesn't promote the Scifi Ghetto anymore.
smokedpoacher
02:29:54 AM Jul 30th 2011
edited by smokedpoacher
"But there's no reason you couldn't write an adult story about someone fighting evil robot versions of him/herself"

It's hypothetically possible, but I certainly can't think of any examples. Was Greg Weisman making a statement about contemporary society or the human condition when he created the Steel Clan? Or did he just put them into the series becuase he knew that the kiddies like watching robots fighting?

I think it's a legitimate point that people who complain about the animation age ghetto online are often just using it as an excuse as to why their fandoms aren't wider, something which is muddying discussions of the subject. You can't really expect the general public to show any interest in stuff like Gargoyles when it isn't that well-liked even within animation circles.

Here's a quote from Stephen Fry which seems relevant:

"The only drama the BBC will boast about are Merlin and Doctor Who, which are fine, but they're children's programmes. They're not for adults. And they're very good children's programmes, don't get me wrong, they're wonderfully written but they are not for adults.

They are like a chicken nugget. Every now and again we all like it.

Every now and again. But if you are an adult you want something surprising, savoury, sharp, unusual, cosmopolitan, alien, challenging, complex, ambiguous, possibly even slightly disturbing and wrong. You want to try those things, because that's what being adult means."

So yes, if we want our complaints about this ghetto to be taken seriously, then it's time we put the chicken nuggets back in the fridge :)
411314
06:16:29 PM Jul 30th 2011
I'm not implying that Gargoyles or Batman: The Animated Series are adult shows, but you seemed to be implying that the reason they aren't adult is simply because they are superhero sci-fi-ish cartoons, as if it's impossible for anything about superheroes or any science fiction to be for adults (anyone who's read Watchmen or seen its movie adaptation should know better).

Stephen Fry's quote, however, seems to imply that anything meant for adults is automatically "chalenging, complex, ambiguous" etc., and you seem to be implying that anything adult makes a statement about contemporary society or the human condition. Can we honestly apply these descriptions to Freddy vs. Jason or most porn? Does Doctor Who really never bring up challenging questions, like what is or is not ethical in war (Doctor's disagreement with the prime minister over weather to shoot retreating alien villains in season 2 of the new series, the Doctor agonizing over weather to also destroy humanity so as to wipe out the Daleks in season 1)?

Here's a quote from C. S. Lewis that seems relevant:

"Critics who treat 'adult' as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adults themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence....When I was ten, I read fairytales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man, I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.
smokedpoacher
09:16:39 AM Aug 2nd 2011
edited by smokedpoacher
I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that anyone here is dismissing all science fiction. Obviously there is sophisticated, adult science fiction - the question is whether Gargoyles and its ilk should be counted amongst it.

Take Watchmen, since you bring it up. Dr. Manhatten isn't in the story simply because Moore and Gibbons thought that a naked blue superhuman would be cool. He's there because they wanted to explore the idea of a man becoming a god, and the alternate history that such a being would create. Everything in Watchmen is there for a reason - the book is asking questions, and using its fantastic elements to ask them.

Can you say the same for Gargoyles? Again, what were the writers saying, or asking, when they created the Steel Clan, or Coyote or the Archmage?

As far as I can tell, the main question they were asking was "who'd win in a fight, a gargoyle or a robot?". And that's what is meant by "pulpish subject matter".

Fry isn't saying that being targeted at adults makes a programme sophisticated by default, he's saying the opposite - that a programme should try for a reasonable level of sophistication before it can be described as truly "adult" (his comments were part of a longer rant - http://youtu.be/cWCbBrVLSQs?t=35m23s - about TV shows that are aimed at adults but could be mistaken for children's fare).

And there's truth in what Lewis wrote, even if he seems a tad confused (when he says that the critics "cannot be adults themselves", isn't he the one using "adult" as a term of approval?), but bear in mind that he said that in 1953. He was responding to a then-widespread disdain for adults who read children's fantasy; the popularity of Harry Potter alone demonstrates that this attitude has hit a steep decline since then. Had Lewis lived to see the era in which two hundred million dollars could be spent on Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen, and a further eight hundred million spent on tickets to see it, he might have written something rather different.

(As for Doctor Who, well, would you say those episodes challanged your views on warfare?)
411314
12:41:28 AM Aug 5th 2011
I suppose I misunderstood what was meant by "pulpish" and by your earlier comment about stories with evil robots. My apologies.
LadyPhantomhive
01:37:24 PM Jun 20th 2013
Why would Gargoyles be considered a bad example? It has a lot of action, yes, including the "pulpish" subject matter you mentioned — but it's actually a fairly mature show, and it's rather unfair to ignore that just because it has the occasional Rule of Cool moment.
smokedpoacher
topic
07:03:54 AM Apr 24th 2011
edited by smokedpoacher
From the article:

'It just also turns out that more plot-driven toons that aren't sitcom-based/standalone shorts were more considered "adult" in the west, and several stuff (including some anime series) happen to be more plot-driven and not attempting to be sitcoms/standalone humorous shorts like most early 'toons were. (And some toons meant for older teens and adults produced today like Archer are more sitcom-based) Maybe people just considered having a comprehensive on-going Story Arc and didn't have to deliver gags every couple minutes to be more "mature" than sitcoms.* A downside to a comprehensive Story Arc is that you have to watch from the beginning for it to make sense - a sitcom with little continuity if at all in between each episode can be picked up at any time and people can learn who the characters are, what's going on, etc.'

Is this really accurate? The English-speaking animation community has traditionally favoured short films, not plot-driven TV series.
Gundamforce
topic
04:22:10 AM Apr 17th 2011
I don't know if this belongs, considering i have never seen animated commercials of Joe Camel...or even if it fits, but just in case it is or can be made relevant I'll keep it here.

Drunkenlemur
topic
09:18:35 PM Apr 4th 2011
edited by Drunkenlemur
Where would I put an entry about The Soup's "What the Kid's are watching" segment on Dai Mahou Touge / Magical Witch Punie Chan?
Rilkar
07:18:41 PM Apr 8th 2011
edited by Rilkar
Other? Anyway, do you have a link to a video clip of it? It sounds hilarious.
Rilkar
topic
12:38:00 PM Feb 4th 2011
I think we should make a short list of shows that would be good to get people out of this mindset.
I personally think that Kino's Journey is the best example because, It's violent but not so violent that someone might say "THIS IS HORRIBLE! WHAT ARE THEY DOING TO THE CHILDREN!" and it's also really really good.
IanJames
topic
01:57:36 AM Dec 6th 2010
edited by IanJames
While there's discussion still on if this is the most appropriate image for the trope, I wanted to avert an edit war over the caption. "I hope he saw the original, or he's going to miss a lot of the backstory." feels kind of snarkier and more acknowledging of the atmosphere of the trope than the current caption. Opinions?
MegaJ
07:50:40 AM Dec 6th 2010
I like the current one we have better, it addresses the trope more.
Gundamforce
01:24:51 AM Dec 7th 2010
Yeah, i agree with Mega J on that one.
AnimeAngel
06:02:06 AM Dec 31st 2010
Personally, I liked the "He's going to be a very happy boy, until his parents find out. They won;t be happy. Nor did the clerk who tried to warn them." as it is more of a detailed description.

As for the image, maybe include a DVD stack that has something like South Park or Metalocalypse placed between films like How to Train Your Dragon and Toy Story.
Gundamforce
topic
02:19:02 AM Dec 5th 2010
edited by Gundamforce
I find it funny that someone put "This primarily exists in the United States", despite that it shows throughout the article that other Western Nations are just as bad, if not worse when it comes to this. Talk about No True Scotsman. I edited it accordingly.
ading
12:25:30 PM Apr 16th 2011
That's not what No True Scotsman means.
TerminusEst13
topic
01:12:19 PM Nov 13th 2010
Is it just me or are the main page's opening paragraphs way too long?

For my monitor, it's three screens tall.
TweedlyDee
topic
07:31:11 PM Sep 18th 2010
edited by TweedlyDee
Is it just me, or is the Blue Planet trailer kinda douchey? The way they handled Pixar in the beginning seemed like a case of Cowboy Bebop at His Computer, considering that the films were nowhere near as saccharine as they claimed and the films benefitted from subtlety Blue Planet probably lacked. And in a way, they sort of reinforced the Animation Age Ghetto by saying that unless a cartoon is bloody and ultra-violent it's kiddy stuff.
69.151.209.78
11:02:41 AM Oct 31st 2010
I'd like to see that red-linked trope, whether it exists by another name or is new. There's a wide gap between 'Family Guy' and 'Hellsing'. Hell, there's a wide gap between 'Family Guy' and Haruhi. ...Back to your topic.

Well, frankly, I think even a lot of Western animation developers believe in this ghetto. It's sad, really, but true.

I'd also like to bring up the difference between 'child-friendly' (something you wouldn't care if your child saw, regardless of whether they could understand or appreciate it) and 'aimed at children' (somethinh actually targetted at them).

(Once again, this is 'Mystik')
TerminusEst13
01:10:55 PM Nov 13th 2010
edited by TerminusEst13
[edited blank, responded to wrong thing]
68.226.211.156
topic
10:51:50 AM Jun 23rd 2010
edited by 68.226.211.156
In Hawaii, The Japanese version of Crayon Shin Chan aired on a TV station called KIKU-TV through 1992-2001 Uncensored and the it has English Subtitles

68.226.211.156
topic
10:39:54 AM Jun 23rd 2010
edited by 68.226.211.156
In Mexico, Saint Seiya came on Tv Azteca and Cartoon Network Uncensored.
SomeGuy
topic
10:07:34 AM May 11th 2010
I've removed the picture, as it's just about completely meaningless if you don't know what La Blue Girl is, and even then, Hentai being mistaken as kid's fare isn't what this trope is about.

However, the picture's creepiness is still such that it deserves a place on the High Octane Nightmare Fuel image links page, as mentioned.
MegaJ
11:16:43 AM May 11th 2010
I thought the picture worked quite well, and it does deal with the trope: All animation somehow equals = for kids.
Darkmane
11:46:47 AM Jun 23rd 2010
We need a photo of a shelf in one of those video stores in which they stack R-rated animation together with children's animation....that would work better.
MegaJ
12:38:58 PM Jun 23rd 2010
Google Image search turns up nothing...
69.151.209.78
10:58:25 AM Oct 31st 2010
(Again, Mystik.)

It should be changed. And I hope to God that that incident was figured out before it went south. (Then again, maybe the parents just didn't care, if you'll allow the pessimism.)
marheavenangel89
10:45:20 PM Jan 25th 2011
Seriously...I want to know how that pic's end story ended...it's driving me insane! That kid is creepy, but then again....seeing what he has in his hands-it's easy to see why...two guesses says the kid knows EXACTLY what he's about to watch.
ThisIsATestTai
06:47:57 AM Jul 5th 2011
In all seriousness, that picture is creeping me out. I read this page at work, and am pretty sure my co-worker was giving my page weird looks until the kid's face was out of the screen. In the ongoing effort to move TV Tropes into a more SFW territory, I think we need to remove that picture, regardless of whether we find a replacement or not. I mean, it doesn't even properly illustrate the trope.
FantasyOfLulz
05:59:35 AM Jul 12th 2011
We could try a piece from the recommendations of a shopping site (say, Amazon) for a cartoon like Futurama or Family Guy. There is a story in troper tales which mentions it, and when done with a well-known series, would illustrate the trope perfectly.
Xiphoniii
06:00:57 AM Jul 21st 2011
I'm heading to Blockbuster soon. I can try and snap a pic of this if still needed, and my store hasn't wizened up.
TorchicBlaziken
topic
07:22:38 AM Apr 24th 2010
Speaking of the picture... What happened after the picture was taken?
Alligator
08:07:20 PM Apr 29th 2010
I don't know, but this just in: PICTURE STILL CREEPY AS FUCK.
nanshe
09:53:20 PM May 10th 2010
That kid is creepier than half of the High Octane Nightmare Fuel image links.
69.118.200.57
10:23:57 PM Sep 23rd 2010
What I want to know is the source of the picture.
berr
topic
02:21:00 PM Mar 5th 2010
I deleted the following paragraph from the page because it seems to illustrate the mentality behind the trope (and it also seems to imply All Animation Is CGI and CGI Is Just Better). I tried to clean it up, but I don't know how to rewrite it. Anyone?
Animation also lends itself more to light entertainment than serious drama or comedy due to the relaxed constraints of a constructed reality. Moreover, even though the quality of animation has drastically improved, it is still, more often than not, highly stylized due to the high costs and technical limitations to produce fully realistic animation. As stylization can often break many people's Willing Suspension of Disbelief any "serious" animated work tends to require fully rendered environments and captured human performances. Unfortunately at that point it is usually cheaper just use REAL environments and REAL actors. Therefore it is almost nature for animation to focus on demographics with low expectations of quality and low belief thresholds.
soojinyeh
04:42:23 PM Mar 8th 2010
I can't believe some idiot actually posted that there. Not true at all-there are certain things that are impossible to do with just actual actors. Certain things are cheaper to animate. And just...no. If I was to elaborate, I'd be sitting here for days. Who wrote that?
Troll
10:47:17 AM Mar 30th 2010
Isn't it mostly a myth that anime is watched by all ages in Japan? I thought that, with the exception of pornography and some big budget films like Miyazaki's, anime really is just children's cartoons in Japan and adults who watch it are considered just as weird as western adults who watch children's cartoons (if not moreso).
prinzenick
04:37:25 PM Apr 10th 2010
Not really. The thing about the japanese is that they're FAR more willing to suspend their disbelief than we are over here when it comes to any fictional product in general, let alone animation. (note that many of their live action films and shows, even whats considered "big budget" by their standards like the Godzilla films, are generally very crude and cheap looking)
Troll
08:16:45 AM Apr 12th 2010
You say that, but do you actually have any evidence that Japanese people consider adults watching anime to be normal?
SomeGuy
08:35:18 AM Apr 12th 2010
Only in the sense that much Anime is mundane fiction clearly marketed toward adults- Nana, Nodame Cantabile, and Black Lagoon come to mind. If these series aren't for "normal" people it's hard to imagine who they are for.

This isn't to say, of course, that any adult who watches Anime is normal in Japan. Your typical otaku tastes in America would probably be considered otaku tastes in Japan, too.
Troll
08:51:28 AM Apr 12th 2010
Oh you're right, those do seem to be aimed at teenagers or early 20s, but remember that western animation is occasionally made for adults (Persepolis for example). I'm still not convinced that Japanese animation skews towards older ages than western. It seems more like the stuff aimed at adults tends to be more popular than the kids stuff in the west and that makes it look like the Japanese animation industry is more adult-oriented.
69.151.209.78
10:56:41 AM Oct 31st 2010
Look at Hellsing. That's certainly aimed at adults or at least older teenagers. I'm certain it's better understood as an age-variable medium there, but I'm also certain that opinions on whether or not it is 'strange' are as varied as they are in the Western World.

(This is the member 'Mystik'- I'm on a public computer at the moment.)
GazBevMoo
08:12:05 PM Sep 30th 2011
I thought someone one another site said real Anime is mostly aimed at adults in Japan. But I think they make different Anime for every age range and people understand it.
shoboni
07:31:07 PM Oct 14th 2012
"Despite the Looney Tunes and Tom And Jerry DV Ds having a warning on the DVD cases that these are intended for adult collectors still doesn't stop places like FYE from placing them in the kids section."

This one's debatable, those are pretty much "family" cartoons by today's standards. Do we delete it?
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