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captainpat
topic
02:24:21 PM Feb 22nd 2014
edited by 174.108.88.94
Alright, so I've cleaned up as many examples as I could for this trope but some I'm gonna need some help with. Examples are here because they do not say whether the character is muscular and/or explain how the character is portrayed as attractive.

Most of the wrestling section simply is simply telling me these women are muscular.

  • Beth Phoenix embodies this trope. She's nicknamed "The Glamazon."
  • Trish Stratus and Torrie Wilson were both rather famous fitness models before getting involved in pro wrestling.
  • Nitro Girl Fyre (Teri Byrne) was a fitness competitor before joining the Nitro Girls and had light but noticeable muscles. She also worked fitness competition moves like straddle lifts and one-armed pushups into her dance routines.
  • When your really get down to it, most of the WWE Divas fit this to a certain degree. While they're frequently criticized for being all looks and no talent, a lot of people noticed when actress and TV host Maria Menounos appeared in the ring, she looked downright sickly standing next to the likes of Gail Kim, Alicia Fox, and Kelly Kelly. Even though none of them are known for being exceptionally buff, they were obviously more muscular and athletic than Menounos was, and no less sexy for it.
  • Although Chyna started out as a sometimes portrayed as a Brawn Hilda, she quickly became perceived this trope for many fans, and this increased after several plastic surgeries (a set of breast implants and having her jaw reconstructed) and as D-Generation X turned Face. At the height of her popularity she posed for Playboy, and that issue set records for sales.

These two entries are overly long. The troper who added them has told me they intend to shorten them but that was a while ago so I'm gonna put them here for anyone else.

  • Futurama
    • In a situation similar to, but distinct from the below "Strong Arms of the Ma," "The Butterjunk Effect" has Leela and Amy getting huge on a natural (but still illegal) steroid substitute known as Nectar after a disappointing several first matches of competing in the Butterfly Derby (essentially ultraviolent cat fights featuring women in skimpy, winged outfits). Leela and Amy aren't the only competitors who get juiced on Nectar, but most of the other women are more "toned" than "built," barring Leela and Amy's rivals, Tank and Truck of the Murderflies (who still aren't quite as big or defined; this is in spite of them buying out the remainder of the Nectar and consuming it to get a leg up on Leela and Amy). None of the Butterfly Derby competitors are seen as ugly per se (early on, Professor Farnsworth even matter-of-factly remarks, "I love a stalwart female physique as much as the next guy, but..."); the turn-off for the men (Fry and Kiff in particular) seems to be the ladies' heightened aggression and more masculine personalities moreso than their increased muscle mass. Fry himself gets over this when he's accidentally sprayed with the pheromones of a male butterfly, making him irresistible to anyone who ingested Nectar (which contains female butterfly hormones).
  • The Simpsons
    • "Strong Arms of the Ma" goes both ways with this. Most, if not all of the other FBBs shown in the episode are portrayed in a mostly favorable light and regarded as attractive, in spite of the anti-steroid message. Marge's old neighbor Ruth Powers (the one who convinces Marge to get roided up) has her physique admired by Marge and in turn tells Marge, "Y'know, another four inches on your neck, and you'd look pretty hot." At the bodybuilding competition, the women (referred to as "Iron Maidens") earn applause and wild cheers from the audience while group posing (although the announcer quips beforehand that the competition's doctors have assured the panel the contestants are indeed women). Two other FBBs elicit similar positive responses: a woman in a flattering pink dress and matching white evening gloves and heels who lifts up and smashes a piano instead of playing it, then telling the onlookers to "Support the arts!"; and a woman dressed as cowgirl who sings a rendition of Gene Pitney's "The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance" (and ruffles Professor Fink's hair) during the talent portion of the competition. The only time in the episode anyone seems to detest the idea of a muscular woman (outside of Marge's growing mean streak and steroid abuse) is when a none too thrilled Bart exclaims, "Ay, caramba! I'm off women forever" in response to seeing the aforementioned "Iron Maidens."

McJeff
11:52:42 AM Mar 23rd 2014
I've done a little bit of rewriting for the professional wrestling examples, but for the most part the examples were fine as they were. If someone is something called a "fitness model," by definition she's going to be noticeably muscular and accompanied by fanservice tropes.
captainpat
02:43:38 PM Mar 23rd 2014
^ No it isn't. Examples about wrestlers need to be about their personas not other careers the women playing them have.

Adding the Chyna example here because it reads like an Audience Reaction.
MithrandirOlorin
topic
08:24:14 AM Dec 1st 2012
I personality get annoyed with the Meaning of Amazon in modern society implying a large and/or muscular woman. The Ancient Greek Amazon where not large, they where a threat in Battle because they where skilled Archers and Horsemen and often fast and agile.

If a real tribe inspired them, it was probably one that was in part Mongoloid, so therefore probably statistically shorter then Greek women.
BibsDibs
06:42:07 PM May 15th 2013
edited by 216.99.32.43
Larkmarn
09:01:06 PM May 15th 2013
... that's ridiculously pedantic and not at all worth wasting a valuable TRS slot on one guy's single wonk. The colloquial definition of Amazonian and a perceived trait of a probably fictional tribe.
BibsDibs
04:05:09 PM Sep 4th 2013
edited by 216.99.32.42
@Larkmarn I guess you have a point there. It's just that I used to think that's where you go if you want to rename a trope during the time.
captainpat
topic
11:22:41 AM Dec 27th 2011
edited by captainpat
Ok guys the example list has two major issues

  • a lot of X Just X and, using weblinks as an example

  • Examples that only provide half the context for this trope. An Amazonian Beauty is a female character who is buff and beautiful. We have a lot that talk about the buff part but have nothing to indicate that said character is meant to be attractive.

So, I'm going to move some of the examples that need more, or any at all, context from the main page to here. Feel free to edit this post to add more examples that need context or to remove examples that have been fixed.

    Anime and Manga 

    Comic Books 
  • A few other Marvel characters: Thundra, Titania, Lyra (the other She-Hulk, and the daughter of Hulk and Thundra), Man-Killer, Battleaxe, and Tremolo.
  • Big Barda, a former member of Darkseid's Female Furies, is a bruiser who makes Supes look like a midget in comparison.
  • Frank Cho seems to like employing this trope with most women he draws (to varying degree), with a side dish of Most Common Superpower.
  • Like Big Barda above, Knockout, a supporting character of both Superboy and the Secret Six, fits this trope quite well.

    Film 
  • Brigitte Nielsen as Sonja in the Red Sonja movie.

    Professional Wrestling 
  • Beth Phoenix and Chyna built their careers on this trope.
  • Though not as bulky as Beth and Chyna, newer divas Kaitlyn and Aksana are noticeably more muscled than others on the roster and competed in bodybuilding competitions before WWE.

KingZeal
01:35:39 PM Dec 27th 2011
I thought that X Just X didn't count with Physical Appearance Tropes.
captainpat
04:37:42 PM Dec 27th 2011
Physical appearance is only half of this trope. It's about physical appearance and portrayal. Simply saying that a female character is muscular doesn't tell the reader whether she's a Brawn Hilda, an Amazonian Beauty, or neither.

As far X Just X not counting for Physical Appearance Tropes, I haven't heard a ruling like that. Most Physical Appearance Tropes are tropes because the physical appearance of a character is used to indicate, emphasize, or accentuate other traits about them. For example Blue Eyes is not simply about a character having blue eyes.
captainpat
topic
06:24:14 AM Sep 14th 2011
We need to work on some of the examples. Alot of examples, even the correct ones (and admitted some I may have put in) read like muscular women that avert Brawn Hilda. This trope is not just an aversion of Brawn Hilda. Whether this muscular woman is attractive because other character find her attractive or her portrayal is fanservice tropes, it needs to be mentioned in the example. Do not just point out muscular women that's don't fit under Brawn Hilda.
darkclaw
06:45:40 AM Sep 20th 2011
I think I added characters like that too. I can see someone like Cammy fitting this trope as she is definitely a Ms. Fanservice, and characters who are deemed attractive in canon despite/because of their muscles fitting the trope.

Maybe we should put a note at the description like: "A female character who is muscular and good-looking does not necessarily qualify for this trope, as 'good-looking' is subjective. If the buff female character is portrayed with fanservice tropes or is stated to be attractive in-story, then she is this trope."
captainpat
01:51:19 PM Sep 20th 2011
Something like that will work. I'll add some more contexts to the examples.
darkclaw
topic
01:26:26 AM Aug 21st 2011
Umm...can anyone think of a witty line to go under the Caitlin Fairchild pic on main page? I can't at the moment, but I just think it'd be cool and/or funny to have something there like some other pages.
hcobb
topic
03:54:56 PM Jul 23rd 2011
What about short girls with super strength rather than bulging muscles? Usually found in Beauty Brainsand Brawn trios. Project A-ko has a few manish women, but they ain't the usual fanservice that A-ko herself delivers.
darkclaw
05:00:24 PM Jul 23rd 2011
Short girls with super strength would probably be the Cute Bruiser trope. If you look at the Laconic for Amazonian Beauty it says "beautiful and buff". If an Amazonian Beauty had super strength, that portrayal would avert Muscles Are Meaningless. If a short girl without bulging muscles had super strength, she would fit the Cute Bruiser trope.

...And as a sidenote, this trope does not really mean "Manish Women"...that sounds more like Brawn Hilda.
captainpat
topic
02:15:58 PM Apr 19th 2011
Are there trope pages that have a sports sections. Since we got rid of the real life section on the Big Beautiful Woman, there's no point in keeping it her either. Still, I think bodybuilding example mentioned somewhere and sports are technically media.
darkclaw
01:25:22 AM Aug 21st 2011
Is there a media/sports section on Tv Tropes?
azul120
topic
11:20:04 PM Apr 7th 2011
Gotta ask... would an inverse of this trope (and I guess Big Beautiful Woman) for females with more delicate, though still possibly lithe frames, be possible? Or is that too much of a People Sit on Chairs thing?
captainpat
02:12:12 PM Apr 19th 2011
hmmm.... Give some examples. My only problem is that I highly doubt any example you could pick would not fall under Generic Cuteness but I don't mind being proving wrong.
azul120
11:25:23 PM Apr 22nd 2011
I know it's a general answer, but a lot of princesses and ingenue types tend to have a more "delicate" build.

For a more specific answer, Ami from Sailor Moon has been noted to have that kind of frame as well IIRC.
darkclaw
topic
02:03:06 PM Jan 7th 2011
edited by darkclaw
Okay, just wondering three things:

KingZeal
02:27:46 PM Jan 7th 2011
edited by KingZeal
I added the Wonder Woman and Makoto parts, so I'll answer that.

  • You make a good point about Wonder Woman. I'll let you do as you see fit there.

  • Maybe we could just add a note stating that Makoto didn't really become fanservicey (or for that matter, noticeably buff) until SFIV...?
darkclaw
02:45:31 PM Jan 7th 2011
edited by darkclaw
I changed the Wonder Woman page. Let me know what you think.

EDIT: Also changed Makoto's entry.
darkclaw
06:22:51 AM Jan 11th 2011
Just entry pimped a bit more. The Trope Decay for Hot Amazon is so far-reaching, it's crazy. I don't know how we can get fellow tropers to know the difference between the tropes. It's funny since Hot Amazon never really meant a beautiful buff babe...but everyone took the idea and rolled with it. At least to my knowledge. Anyways, I changed some stuff around, including changing portfolio entries on the Pantheon, but without making any major changes. Speaking of the Pantheon, anyone have any ideas for the "Goddess" of this trope? I was interested in writing her portfolio. I know She-Hulk already is on there, so I was thinking Chun-Li or more likely, Caitlin Fairchild. Anyone have any ideas?

Oh, and are we allowed to change pages like "Fetish Fuel"? I was wondering if I could change the Fetish Fuel pages that keep saying "Hot Amazon"...when they mistook the trope for this one. Then again, thanks to the recent split, I can't really blame them.
KingZeal
07:12:53 AM Jan 11th 2011
I'm pretty sure we can change anything we need to, if it's wrong.

As for the trope Goddess? Hm. I'm blanking on anyone but She-Hulk.
captainpat
06:11:21 PM Jan 11th 2011
edited by captainpat
Feel free to help with the cleaning up of Hot Amazon. It feels really weird cleaning up by myself since I'm deleting so many examples. It's not a big issue since no one's stopping me but I don't wanna feel like I'm stepping on any toes.

Anyway It probably gonna a while before people understand the difference between these two tropes, since most of those muscular characters we're as Hot Amazon before this trope was in effect. They should have never been tagged hot amazon the first place but It makes it easier to find the examples that need change
darkclaw
06:55:46 PM Jan 11th 2011
edited by darkclaw
Okay, I'm heading to Hot Amazon right now. I wasn't sure if I could just go in and delete, but since you can, I'm headed over there. Thanks for the heads up.

@ King Zeal

Can She-Hulk be a goddess of more than one trope? I'll have to look where she's listed again...
captainpat
topic
04:06:45 PM Jan 2nd 2011
edited by captainpat
I was wondering if it were possible to still change the trope pic. I just don't think chun-li, while a fine example of this trope, is the this trope personified nor is character I would want Representative of this trope when we've got character like She-hulk, fairchild,and Thundra

Anyway, if anyone got any other pics, feels like using the pics in this post, or thinks the trope pic doesn't needs to be changed, I wanna know.
darkclaw
04:20:26 PM Jan 2nd 2011
Agreed with the above. I actually put Chun-Li because I found her fairly easily on the internet, and she was an example of the trope. I wanted to put She-Hulk but she was being used by the Hot Amazon page so I decided not to. That said, the She-Hulk pic could work in my opinion but that particular pic isn't too...Fanservicey in my opinion. Thundra works too but I prefer Caitlin Fairchild...but I would prefer a solo picture of her, or if it had people in it, admirers I guess. Maybe I'm being too picky.

BTW, sorry for being gone so long, was sick.
SomeGuy
06:56:21 PM Jan 2nd 2011
Don't worry about it. It's not like we're paying you.

To answer pat's question, yes, the image is still open game. Trust your own judgment on this one. If you see a picture that screams "this is such an excellent representation of the trope that it beats the pants off of crouching Chun Li", then go ahead and upload it and leave a note here.
KingZeal
07:29:32 PM Jan 2nd 2011
Me Too.

But no, seriously, I agree with the two above. The two pics suggested could be better, though. Fairchild is definitely better than Chun-Li, but we can probably do even better than that.
captainpat
12:10:34 PM Jan 6th 2011
edited by captainpat
I'm not really picky about which pic we use so long as the character has more clearer muscle definition. Anyway here as some non-shehulk examples

Akiko Daimon

daisy from Omega flight sequel to Alpha Flight

two panels from Spinnerette 1 2

Quite frankly though, I'm in favor of using the Fairchild pick but like I said I'm not really all that picky
KingZeal
12:31:23 PM Jan 6th 2011
I still prefer Fairchild. The Daisy and Akiko pics have art which is severely YMMV.
captainpat
01:28:41 PM Jan 6th 2011
While I can somewhat understand Daisy, I'm don't see what so YMMV about both pics. Personally I feel that this trope has more to do with the author's intent than fan reaction but like I said before I prefer the Fairchild pic.

Anyway, sorry if I jumped to gun but I decided to use the Fairchild pic. However if anyone wants to change it feel free to do so.
KingZeal
01:39:28 PM Jan 6th 2011
Well, the pic needs to be clear at the very least. Even if the trope itself isn't about fan reaction, we have to pick the picture that most easily showcases what the trope is about.

To that effect, the most sexual/beautiful the fanservice looks, the more easily a fanservice trope gets across.
captainpat
01:41:28 PM Jan 6th 2011
good point
darkclaw
01:47:41 PM Jan 6th 2011
edited by darkclaw
I like the Fairchild picture on the front page, though that is only my opinion.

As for the Akiko pic, I guess she might be YMMV due to the sweat. Not sure why Daisy would be YMMV. I like all three pics but I think Caitlin works best out of the three.

As for author intention vs. fan reaction, I think it needs a bit of both. For example, an author can make a buff and beautiful female character, but as with any Fetish Fuel, YMMV. The author may find her attractive, but not all fans will (I don't think it's even possible to make a character that ALL fans find attractive). Plus, No Guy Wants an Amazon can also come into play.

But since the odds are usually that at least some fans probably will find a muscular female character attractive and if the intention is for the buff female to be attractive...then I would say the buff but cute and/or beautiful female (though again, YMMV) qualifies for the trope. I hope that wasn't too confusing.

Also, does anyone have a witty quote for Caitlin's pic? And one other question which has been bothering me...if another page has a character listed as Hot Amazon but this trope covers the character not Hot Amazon, can we change it? As an example, the Street Fighter II character page says that Cammy "is muscular enough" to qualify for Hot Amazon. Can I change that to Amazonian Beauty? (Since Hot Amazon = Action Girls are hot, but the description more fits this trope)?

EDIT: Changed the Street Fighter II character page.
KingZeal
02:10:00 PM Jan 6th 2011
Yeah, go ahead and change it, I say. (Regarding Cammy.)
darkclaw
02:15:43 PM Jan 6th 2011
As my edit above says, I changed the Street Fighter page. I also changed Chun-Li's description for the trope (Amazonian Beauty) since it said "poster girl for the trope" but she is no longer the "poster girl" (Caitlin is now). Also, I added Amazonian Beauty to Power Girl's page (stating that she is sometimes drawn with the physique of a bodybuilder) but kept the entry for Hot Amazon. Any objections, sugggestions, etc.?
captainpat
02:19:40 PM Jan 6th 2011
edited by captainpat
Most of the muscular females in Hot Amazon I'm gonna to remove from Hot Amazon and retaging as Amazonian Beauty on their work page, the ones that have an in-story reason stay ofcourse. I think we have a good amount of examples in this page so it wouldn't hurt to do a bit of entry pimping, just a bit.

As for author intention vs. fan reaction. I say keep in to author's intention, regardless of one's attraction to a character, it's pretty easy to tell whether or not the author wants, keyword being wants, you to find said character attractive.

KingZeal
02:22:59 PM Jan 6th 2011
If memory serves me correctly, I thought it was considered bad form to assume author intention. Something about it being hard to prove without Word Of God.
darkclaw
02:27:52 PM Jan 6th 2011
That is true King Zeal, I never thought about it that way. I still think that if an author portrays a character with Fanservice, they want you to think the character is attractive. But that's just me speaking from my experience from writing.
captainpat
02:54:22 PM Jan 6th 2011
edited by captainpat
My second best explanation for this trope was "fanservicy muscular women" not sure if that's better. My reasoning for author intent is the same reason as darkclaw. I think this trope is a rare exception to the rule where author intent would work. Well, I think anyway.
KingZeal
02:57:49 PM Jan 6th 2011
So long as the point gets across, I really don't have a complaint.

LOL, this is a pet trope for me, because this is exactly the type of woman I find sexy. :p
darkclaw
03:04:14 PM Jan 6th 2011
edited by darkclaw
I can agree with that King Zeal...but let's stay on topic for now. We could put up a Troper Tales for this, if we want to discuss our own personal examples from Real Life further I suppose. Plus, some Troper Tales from Hot Amazon (like my own) probably fit here anyways.

EDIT: I was going to make a Troper Tales, but I can't seem to make the page append. Does anyone know how to do this? I want to move my example from Hot Amazon to this trope and only my example (since moving others is just asking for an Edit War).

EDIT 2: Succeeded in making a Troper Tales. This trope now has a Troper Tales and a Laconic.
X2X
topic
10:26:52 PM Dec 28th 2010
edited by X2X
A few things that I want to throw this way, but in need of a second opinion on.

  • Wouldn't this trope be considered the Distaff Counterpart of Heroic Build? I know that the trope is already mentioned, but I just wanted to get the question out there.
  • Would it be possible to consider this trope parallel to The Lad-ette? Both type of women are supposed to be considered attractive, but The Lad-ette is a masculine personality, whereas Amazonian Beauty is a masculine build.
  • Could Nubile Savage be considered a comparison trope (it's a stretch)?

  • A few questionable examples:
    • Sif and Valkyrie is usually shown to be athletic like Ms. Marvel (i.e. some muscle tone with a little bit of attention called to the arms and legs; these images are how the likes of Ms. Marvel, Valkyrie, and Sif are usually drawn), whether or not they're portrayed as muscular sometimes depends on who draws them. During the recent Red-Hulk arc, She-Hulk reassembled the Lady Liberators with the original configuration just being the Power Trio of Shulkie, Thundra, and Valkyrie. Look at these group shots. Notice that the three ladies are equals in terms of muscle mass and definition, and they're all huge. While Thundra—much like She-Hulk—is usually drawn in a way that accentuates her large build, Valkyrie has never been shown to be that big ever before. However, Arthur "Art" Adams and Frank Cho did the penciling for that comic; Cho is known for muscling up his ladies and making them well-endowed. Later on, the Lady Liberators add the Invisible Woman, Storm, Spider-Woman, Tigra, Black Widow, and Hellcat to their ranks, all of whom are notably more muscular than usual. As for Sif, the only time I've really seen her with muscle is in one story where she eventually manhandles Loki. Unlike She-Hulk, Red She-Hulk, Thundra, Lyra, and Titania, who are known for and usually depicted with heavily-muscled physiques, Sif and Valkyrie (like most of the other Marvel superheroines) are shown to have a more slender athleticism to them.
    • I know that Ibuki was excluded, but Juri probably fits this less than that of her or Makoto (neither of which are particular Fanservicey minus the Foot Focus and Makoto's arms are only really revealed in her alternate costume, which is probably less flattering than her normal attire). Fanservice? Yup, but aside from a toned abdominal section and maybe a slight bicep (not unlike that of Ibuki), there's nothing to suggest that she's muscular.
    • Tia from Breakers. Whereas Rila is shown to be quite buff and only wears a Leotard of Power, Tia's legs (despite being Chun-Li's Captain Ersatz), while long, are no more defined than that of Sakura.

So... yeah. Sorry for the long post.
KingZeal
05:12:25 AM Dec 29th 2010
  • Heroic Build is unisex. If anything, Amazonian Beauty is a subtrope of it.
  • As you said, The Lad-ette is a personality trope. It doesn't really have anything to do with body type.
  • Nubile Savage may work as a comparison, but yeah, it's a stretch.

  • Cut 'em.
  • The woman's entire body doesn't need to be muscular, or else Chun Li (our poster girl) doesn't count either. Juri's abs count just fine, and she's far more Fanservice-y than even Chun-Li. Sexual moans, suggestive win quotes, erotic gestures, Bare Your Midriff costume...yeah.
  • Makoto's a borderline example, but SSFIV puts a much greater emphasis on the peek of bosom you get inside of her costume. Not to mention that her alternate costume (the latest one, not the farmer outfit) puts her in a schoolgirl outfit with significantly defined legs.
  • Tia doesn't appear to have any more muscle tone than Sif or Valkyrie above.
X2X
11:20:15 AM Dec 29th 2010
edited by X2X
Ok, gotcha. On that note, Caiera (Hulk's wife from the Planet Hulk arc) will be cut as well, seeing as she's in the same boat as Sif and Valkyrie. The Jackie Martin example should be rewritten accordingly and moved to Brawn Hilda, and the Brawn Hilda trope is most likely going to need a slight rewrite due to all of the Trope Repair that's been going on in the last few weeks. I'd do it myself, but I have somewhere I need to be and I won't be back 'til late.

Two possible inclusions I want to throw your way (you can be the verdict):
KingZeal
12:53:23 PM Dec 29th 2010
edited by KingZeal
  • Is Mighty Mom considered attractive in-universe and/or accompanied by fanservice tropes (though, if we want to stretch it, Sensual Spandex might count...)?

  • Giganta, yes, absolutely. I wanted to add her before, and would have already if I could've remembered her name.
captainpat
01:03:30 PM Dec 29th 2010
edited by captainpat
  • No to Mighty Mom

  • Yes to Giganta, just make sure to be clear that her muscular depiction is often paired with her two-piece leopard-skin loincloth
captainpat
topic
11:44:54 PM Dec 27th 2010
edited by captainpat
Okay there are a few examples that's I'm not sure about so I just want a second opinion:

  • Sonya blade- Here's Sonya from MKvDC, and here she is in Mortal Kombat (2011). Not exactly muscular but the character design for each mortal Kombat game is always radically different so there might be toned or muscular Sonya that I missed.

  • The Boss from Metal Gear Solid 3 not exactly muscular or toned, least it's hard to know since her bodysuit isn't form fitting. If there is one female character that fits this trope I'd have to say it's Meryl, least in Metal Gear Solid 4

  • Sorceress Adel from Final Fantasy VIII, Viewer Gender Confusion aside, there's no indication (Fanservice sexual elements in her depiction or design) that the audience is suppose to find her attractive.

  • That from clip from Assemble Insert, the clip from Dirty Pair (the women's name is Sandra) and Jackie Martin from Glenn Martin DDS

    • I'm lumping all three for the same reason. Oddly enough, all three characters have their physiques commented on by other characters and pretty much the common phrase was something to the effect of "She looks like a man". I think it's important to remember that muscular women are......well, an acquired tastes so just because a series isn't depicting their muscular female as a Brawn Hilda or with gonkish features doesn't automatically make her an Amazonian Beauty.

      • On that note, I'm not also not sure about Triumph from Halcyon. She's appears in one cover and a panels in her series but nothing sexually or fanservicry. That's may change soon, as the series is only two issues in but for now, it seems too early to tell

      • I'm also not sure about the Totally Spies! examples mainly because seems more Fetish Fuel than actual Fanservice. Also I'm not exactly sure what the point of that footnote about Sam is there for as it's still not an example of this trope but the are some character who appear in that episode (W.O.W) who might be.

      • And last with Plucky Duck, make no sense since he pretty much had a Oh, Crap moment when the women started hulking out.

Anyway, like I said, I'm just more or less looking for a second opinion before I start deleting.
KingZeal
06:20:13 AM Dec 28th 2010
  • I agree with cutting Sonya.
  • Agree with cutting The Boss
  • Ditto for Adel.
  • Also, Triumph.

  • The Dirty Pair woman has the appropriate Fanservice tropes (Male Gaze and Stripperiffic).
  • In the Totally Spies examples, we have Stripperiffic, and at least one boy seems to indicate that they're attractive.
  • In Plucky Duck, the women are part of a beauty contest, so I think it's perfectly fine. Plucky's reaction isn't all that relevant here.
darkclaw
06:51:35 AM Dec 28th 2010
I agree with King Zeal's recommendations. However with cutting the Boss, should Meryl go in her place as you mentioned from Metal Gear Solid 4? She doesn't show much Fanservice that I can remember...but I haven't played the game in years so maybe I should look into it again.

As for Sam of Totally Spies!, I think some people were simply taking the trope title too literally and that footnote should be removed.

As for Plucky's reaction, I think he was more worried that the ladies were going to test out their martial arts skills on him.
KingZeal
07:12:18 AM Dec 28th 2010
What do you mean about Sam, darkclaw? Taking what too literally?

And as for Meryl...is she even muscular?
darkclaw
07:47:31 AM Dec 28th 2010
edited by darkclaw
The trope title "Amazonian Beauty". I mean, if I recall that episode, Sam went Brainwashed and Crazy and did not gain muscle at all. When I said "literally", yes she has Amazon blood and is hot, but no, she's not buff. As far as I remember, however, so I should look into this further.

As for Meryl, she has some muscle (but only in MGS4) but her clothing pretty much covers it all and she provides next to no Fanservice looking back. So I don't think she goes in the trope.
captainpat
08:16:24 AM Dec 28th 2010
edited by captainpat
With Meryl in MGS 4 there was wedding dress

Okay I'll cut those examples but does anyone have any thoughts about Jackie Martin from Glenn Martin DDS?
X2X
05:53:56 PM Dec 28th 2010
edited by X2X
I'm the one who added Jackie, and I'm leaning towards her exclusion from this trope.

If my memory serves me correctly she'd had the Fanservice in the form of only wearing a training bra as a top and she still retained her beauty in the facial department, but she embodied most of the negative perceptions of a female bodybuilder who took steroids: deepened voice, increased aggressiveness (at one point, she strips Glenn—who has an Oh, Crap expression—down to his underwear and then tells him to hang on to the bedpost as she forcibly has sex with him), etc. Most characters seemed to ignore her muscularity, but those who didn't always mistook her for a man. By the end of the episode, I believe that she walks into a men's bathroom and checks herself out, commenting that she's hot, but then two guys mistake her for a guy again, and Jackie finally agrees with their sentiment that she's unattractive. By the next episode, the muscle is gone.

By the way, I'm surprised that I still remember this.
KingZeal
topic
06:38:25 PM Dec 23rd 2010
Is the criteria masculine and/or tall or masculine (with tall used as a masculine trait)? I ask this because of the Grune example just added. In the context of Tales of Legendia, THIS is Grune, who is certainly tall, but her masculinity is...lacking.
azul120
06:46:23 PM Dec 23rd 2010
edited by azul120
It doesn't have to be masculine, at least not in my book. This is for females who are tall and/or muscular, features that are typically uncommon for them, which I guess is where the "masculine" part comes from.

I know darkclaw is mainly representing the well-built part of the trope, but I believe there's also room for the tall, willowy and statuesque, who don't have another trope to call their own anyways.
darkclaw
05:17:27 AM Dec 24th 2010
Agreed with the above. It's tall and/or muscular (not necessarily masculine, though I suppose they can overlap). The character in question (Grune), is tall (which is typically uncommon as azul120 pointed out) which makes her apply for the trope...and due to Show Some Leg in that picture, she fulfills the Fanservice trait as well. She's obviously meant to be seen as attractive, and is tall, so she applies for the trope.

Hope that clears that up.

@azul120, I'm trying to represent the well-built and the tall. As well as the tall well-built too. So if I am failing to do so, please let me know so I can rewrite the description to better explain the trope.
azul120
01:31:09 PM Dec 24th 2010
edited by azul120
Ahhh. I was referring to how in your page profile you noted your particular affinity for muscular types. Not that I mind at all. Also, I looked to see what else you may have worked on. It's all good, right?

Should there be any standards for tall women, aside from the fanservice/attractive part? Can they still be put under the trope even if they aren't always in the vicinity of characters they tower over? Code Geass, a show not known much for short characters, features Milly Ashford, for instance, who stands at 5' 9".

As for the page picture, a couple of possibilities I can think of are Caitlin Fairchild of Gen13 and Fran from Final Fantasy XII, who both break past the 6 foot line.
captainpat
02:36:07 PM Dec 24th 2010
edited by captainpat
So then why bother naming this trope Amazonian Beauty? An amazon is a tall, strong, masculine woman.

Also why is trope to related to No Guy Wants an Amazon, Hot Amazon and Brawn Hilda? All three tropes deal with the reaction female character get from taking on stereotypically masculine roles or traits.

This is suppose to be a contrast/cyclic trope with Brawn Hilda. A Brawn Hilda is a female character who's depicted as unattractive because of her masculinity. So if this trope is supposed to be contrast to Brawn Hilda wouldn't make sense for this trope to be for female character who are attractive because (or in spite of) masculinity.

A character like Grune and a character like tania have two completely different body types. Both body types are being represented in this trope page, though more character's fit Tania's body type. Either way like all the other tropes based on body types this trope need to relate to one body type

We gotta pick one that represents this trope and I think this trope should apply to characters like Tania. There's nothing amazonian about a character like Grune.
darkclaw
03:00:57 PM Dec 24th 2010
edited by darkclaw
@azul120 Yeah, it's all good. Don't worry about it.

As to the question about tall women, I would think that they should at least be taller than the majority of the characters they know. Take Code Geass for example, as you mentioned, a LOT of people in that show are tall, if not all of them. So the question becomes is Milly taller than most of the characters?

I hope that helps.

I'll look into some pictures of Caitlin and Fran now, thanks for the suggestions. If you find any, feel free to post them.

@ captainpat

I worded that previous response horribly looking back. I figured that the tall height would be associated with masculinity...I agree with you. The trope was intended to be the contrast of Brawn Hilda. So the trope fits Tania MUCH more than Grune. In hindsight, the trope should be more related to the overall Amazonian nature of the women.

@ all in discussion

In light of the above, I say we should split the examples into subfolders: Muscular, Tall and Both.

If examples feature muscle and are still portrayed as attractive, that's obviously the trope. Height should be portrayed as taller than usual and still be attractive, then that's the trope. Both and portrayed as attractive, then that's the trope definitely. If the person is not portrayed as attractive due to the above or simply isn't portrayed as attractive, then this is not the trope.

As to the above examples, if the character is like Tania, it's this trope since she provides Fanservice and it's related back to her Amazonian nature (her arms, enough said). If the character is like Grune, then the trope is only applicable if her attractiveness is portrayed with an emphasis on her height in the Fanservice. In other words, the Fanservice needs to tie in with the Amazonian nature of the character. Tania's outfit for example clearly showcases her arms which are definitely buff. Does Grune frequently tower over other characters (including male ones) in her Fanservice scenes? If so, then she fits the trope under the height section. If not, then she's out.

So adjusted requirements are: 1- Female character 2- Muscle and/or height 3- Whichever of the two above qualities they have (or both) being played for Fanservice (in other words, we're supposed to find them pretty...muscles and/or height included).

I prefer the split shown above personally. It would still be all on this page, however.

Is that clear enough?

And if you still want to narrow it down to ONE type, then muscle it is. Height would be shifted into another trope.
azul120
03:59:20 PM Dec 24th 2010
edited by azul120
Yeah, I felt the multiple type solution would have been more fitting.

On the other hand, since Hot Amazon is already somewhat about the muscular part being attractive, shouldn't the muscular half of this trope be shifted there, if it's decided that this trope be split up?
darkclaw
05:29:02 PM Dec 24th 2010
edited by darkclaw
Check Hot Amazon again. It's clearly stated to be about attractive Action Girls. At the bottom of the description. A lot of Action Girls are not buff or tall.

Back at the Trope Repair Shop Discussion for Hot Amazon, a bunch of tropers (you and I included) decided we needed to split the trope due to the difference between an Action Girl and a buff and/or tall female character presented as attractive (who may or may not be an Action Girl). Hence this trope was born.

Hot Amazon is about finding the actions (i.e. kicking ass and being Badass) of an Action Girl attractive. This is about a buff and/or tall woman being presented as attractive due to those qualities. Though they can and usually overlap as noted.

For the record, I explained this in the description of this trope.
azul120
05:33:01 PM Dec 24th 2010
Oh, right. Overlooked that part.
captainpat
05:41:23 PM Dec 24th 2010
edited by captainpat
I think it would be best to narrow the trope.

Limit the trope to muscle. Splitting a trope on works when a trope is

A) too persuasive to list examples of the trope being played straight (Buxom Is Better, Heroic Build)

B) when there are multiple ways of playing the trope straight (Big Breasts, Big Deal, Tsundere )

C) subverted just as many times as is played straight (Red Eyes, Take Warning)

Splitting a trope means that has to be a strong link between what's being split. Again look at Grune and tania again, those are two completely different body types.

darkclaw
05:49:37 PM Dec 24th 2010
Agreed. I think we should create a separate trope for attractive tall women (specifically their height being portrayed as attractive), unless we already have one, and move the "tall" examples there. Should I rewrite the definition now or should we first make sure we have a place for the tall ladies and their examples?
KingZeal
06:15:02 PM Dec 24th 2010
Wow, I certainly opened a can of worms. But, good. I'm glad we were able to get something out of this.

Anyway, yeah, I think we should make a new trope for tall women, so should go ahead and rewrite the definition, as far as I'm concerned.
captainpat
06:15:47 PM Dec 24th 2010
edited by captainpat
Best worry about trope we have right now. Beside I really don't see a case to be made about a trope for tall thin ladies. Since

1) thin is the practically the defult appearance for a female character (hence why have Hollywood Pudgy)

2) none of the character, while tall, are abnormally tall. in most cases there a couple male characters in their fiction that's are just as tall and/or even taller than they are

but that's for when the tropes being proposed.
KingZeal
06:22:36 PM Dec 24th 2010
edited by KingZeal
The second point really doesn't make a difference. This isn't about the rarity or commonality of the height in relation to men, it's about emphasis on that trait in regards to fanservice. The same way Hot Amazon and Amazonian Beauty doesn't distinguish between the fact that many of the women may not be as Badass or muscular as men in the same context. She-Hulk, while muscular, is not as buff as Luke Cage. That isn't what's being emphasized.
darkclaw
06:30:42 PM Dec 24th 2010
edited by darkclaw
Should I delete any entries that are not related to the new definition (i.e. the "tall" ones?)

EDIT: Apparently, someone checked out the page. I'll have to wait a little while before I can edit the definition

EDIT 2: The definition is now changed. Please take a look and tell me what you think, so we can proceed to remove examples. The examples that are removed for height, we should probably back up to a YKTTW or something if we plan to use them in another trope.
KingZeal
06:57:56 PM Dec 24th 2010
Let's back them up here until the new page is made.
darkclaw
07:06:45 PM Dec 24th 2010
Should I make a side-note on the main page to not delete them?
captainpat
07:11:43 PM Dec 24th 2010
If there are examples that don't fit the trope then they shouldn't be in the main page. I suggest we remove then from the main page and make a topic here in the discussion page
KingZeal
07:14:43 PM Dec 24th 2010
I've already made a list of characters that need moving, so I can move them here as soon as the checkout clears.

Also, there are a lot of "iffy" examples, as many on this list are stated to be "athletic". "Athletic" women aren't exactly Amazons (Trish Stratus is a "fitness model" while Beth Phoenix is a "figure model" (there is a big difference in muscle definition between the two terms). As such, an "athletic" woman doesn't necessarily have to be muscular, as it could mean anything from a swimmer to a gymnast instead.
darkclaw
07:15:25 PM Dec 24th 2010
edited by darkclaw
Thanks King Zeal. The "iffy" examples can stay for now I suppose, until we can find out if they are being played for Fanservice and until we find out how "athletic" they are. I mean, if they are "athletic" in the terms of being simply in good shape like many Action Girls or if they are actually muscular. Should the description be edited to say how much muscle? The way I see it, it could depend a lot on on the artists and such...
KingZeal
07:30:57 PM Dec 24th 2010
edited by KingZeal
List of removed examples:

Notes:

  • The reason I removed Samus is because when she's in her suit (when she actually looks Amazonian in size), she's never used as Fanservice. When she's out of her suit, there's no emphasis on her build or musculature. Even the troper who posted the example didn't seem sure if she qualified out of suit.

  • Carol Danvers, Storm, Felicia, and Leela are all examples of an athletic Action Girl, not a muscular one. I think we need to toe that line now, before people start adding any example just because a woman has a couple inches of bicep. For this trope to be in effect, critera #2 has to be the BIGGEST factor. If the muscles aren't emphasized or unnaturally large, they don't count.

  • The rest of the examples are all tall women, which we've already covered.
KingZeal
07:38:33 PM Dec 24th 2010
Damn, still missed quite a few. I'll take another crack at it whenever darkclaw is finished.
darkclaw
07:43:20 PM Dec 24th 2010
edited by darkclaw
Okay, I'm going to edit the second criteria right now.

EDIT: Done editing. You may now edit away. I will be back soon.
KingZeal
08:14:36 PM Dec 24th 2010
edited by KingZeal
Okay, second round of editing done, and I only ended up removing one example:

  • Ivy from the Soul series stands at a height of almost 6 feet tall and has long, muscular legs.

Notes:

  • Ivy's height is what's being emphasized, so I don't think I need to go further. She's not even that muscular.

  • I also removed Elena, Ibuki, and Sakura from Street Fighter (though they didn't have their own bullets). (Elena is just tall, and Ibuki and Sakura aren't particularly muscular. Sakura's legs have definition in SFIV, but her legs aren't any more or less emphasized compared to other depictions, and no characters call attention to it. Ibuki has slight bicep, but that's it.

  • I decided to keep most of the "athletic" examples, although I'm lithe to do so. Muscle tone and mass needed to be present on the character for me to keep them, either on abs, chest, or limbs, and I looked up pics of each one. In the end, I couldn't find a good reason for keeping a character like Shina from Bloody Roar while excluding Sonya Blade, even though I agree and disagree with their inclusions, respectively. That means that people are probably going to wind up arguing against my judgment for Ibuki, Sakura, and Zero Suit Samus, but for right now, I think this is the best choice.

In the end, I think this trope is headed for Trope Decay unless we do something like specify that the muscle mass of the woman in question must dominate her feminine features. Like I said with Sakura above, she had muscle definition, but not mass.
darkclaw
09:28:02 PM Dec 24th 2010
And I'm back. Cue drum roll. Anyways, I agree with that we need a specification. Is this a good specification/fourth criteria: Muscles must be a prominent feature in said female character. Definition can be included, but due to many characters having definition depending on the artist, a noticeable amount of mass in needed as well.
KingZeal
09:40:08 PM Dec 24th 2010
Too complicated, I think. And what is "noticeable" outside of Your Mileage May Vary?

Anyway, I've been pondering this.

The only way I can think of emphasizing muscle mass objectively is by saying that it would unquestionably dominate the feminine physique. For example, Chun Li still looks quite feminine, but her physique is unquestionably defined by the mass of her legs.

However, I do think we need to specify what muscle definition is acceptable, but it could possibly become its own independent criteria. For example this female has enough definition that no one would question that she is Amazonian, but she has next to no mass. (Take away the line art, and she'd be just like any other girl.)

So my question is this: how would you specify definition like that on its own merits?
darkclaw
06:59:32 AM Dec 25th 2010
edited by darkclaw
Sorry for the late reply. Had to get some sleep.

After some thought, I agree with the above statement. Perhaps a fourth criteria could be that not only is the muscle noticeable but is a defining element of their physique. The character in question can still look feminine but their physical portrayal must be at least partially defined by the portrayal of their muscles. In other simplified words:

Fourth Criteria: Is their muscle an integral part of their portrayal and their physique is dominated by their muscles (due to their large muscle mass and/or detailed definition)? (Example: The character can still look feminine, but one look at them and you know their muscles are one of their most noticeable and/or biggest traits due to their muscle mass and/or definition.)

Is that a good enough criteria? If not, I suggest splitting mass and definition into two criteria to further detail them. I think it's basically what you suggested above but it could use some tweaking.

Oh, and Merry Christmas to whoever is reading this.
azul120
08:25:39 PM Dec 25th 2010
I think that works.

BTW, if someone considers covering tall and athletic types, what would be good YKTTW names for those?
darkclaw
10:24:38 PM Dec 25th 2010
Maybe "Statesque Sexiness"? Sorry, couldn't resist the Added Alliterative Appeal.
azul120
10:51:13 PM Dec 25th 2010
Works for me.

On the same note, couldn't this trope also be named Attractive Amazon?
KingZeal
12:00:56 AM Dec 26th 2010
The title should really make it clear that it's about women, though. Statuesque Sexiness sounds like it could be about either sex.
azul120
12:25:48 AM Dec 26th 2010
edited by azul120
I created a YKTTW titled Statuesque Stunner. Not sure how on point I was in my description though.

Not sure how to do a more gender specific title that's still clever sounding.
KingZeal
12:46:02 AM Dec 26th 2010
That sounds good. :)
azul120
12:47:42 AM Dec 26th 2010
What, the description, or the name? Because the name sure isn't anymore gender specific.
KingZeal
01:09:40 AM Dec 26th 2010
"Stunner" usually refers to women, but I guess you have a point.
darkclaw
06:59:32 AM Dec 26th 2010
@ azul120 I think the current name for your YKTTW works well. Sadly, I can't think of any witty titles at the moment, but I'll let you know if anything comes up.
X2X
05:54:53 PM Dec 26th 2010
Back on the topic of this trope, are we going to use "Glamazon" as an alt. title, darkclaw? I could quickly fix things up if so.

Also, I've noticed that the current build of the Hot Amazon page has a lot of examples that don't fit the trope's description. I figure that we may need another Trope Repair Discussion, but I can't start a new one since the old one is still up and I have no idea how to close the thread. Anyway, I plan to start relocating all proper examples to this page and the Statuesque Stunner YKTTW soon.
darkclaw
06:21:18 PM Dec 26th 2010
I don't see why we can't use "Glamazon" except for the YKTTW. If you could fix that up, it'd be greatly appreciated. The only reason I have't relocated anything is because I was not sure if we can just go in and take stuff out of other tropes and relocate them (I'm a bit of newbie to TV Tropes)...but since apparently we can, I'll see if I can help you with that soon.

And sorry for getting off-topic, I do that sometimes. Thanks for putting us back on-topic.
X2X
08:57:39 PM Dec 26th 2010
edited by X2X
Yeah, I can see where the problem is. But, as NativeJovian points out on that page, character-named tropes tend to be renamed due to their meanings being vague to people not in the know. (For example: Third-Option Love Interest was once named "Cheryl Blossom" after the Archie character, but the former gets the meaning the trope across to a more mainstream audience.) For all we know, HawktureShorts155's proposal might not even have enough examples to be tropable. If that happens, all I'd need to do is make a link and then redirect the empty page to this one.

For future reference, here's what you'd do:
  • 1. Make a link to the page you want to use as the alternative trope title.
  • 2. If the link is red, then the page hasn't been created yet. There are also the occasional few blue links that are empty. These are usually fair game, although there are exceptions.
  • 3. You then click on the link you created and edit the page. To redirect a link, you place the name of the trope you want to redirect to inside of the code "[[redirect: ]]" (exclude the quotation marks when you're doing this for real).
  • 4. Save the page and voila! If done properly, you'll be taken to the corresponding page that you redirected the other page to.

Hopefully that made sense.

About the whole relocation thing, all I'd be doing is cutting and pasting erroneous examples from one page to the other. I wanted to make my case known before I started, but I have no idea how to close the previous thread for Hot Amazon that led to our consensus to create the Amazonian Beauty trope. I'm currently asking around to see if anyone knows how to do so. I might start removing examples soon, but I might just wait 'til we get that Statuesque Stunner YKTTW launched (which won't be for about another 2 days or so at the very least).

Oh and no worries about "getting off topic". What you were discussing above was actually relevant, so there's no need to apologize about it.
captainpat
topic
02:25:15 PM Dec 21st 2010
edited by captainpat
Ok that litmus test is just asking for Trope Decay. Beauty, outside the context of the actually story, is never a good requirement to use for a trope

Here's one I thought up to give this trope a more stable foundation

1) Does she have stereotypical male traits (tall. muscular wide frame....)?

2) Are those trait emphasize in her depiction?
  • If she's muscular, is she bulky or are her muscles well-defined?
  • If she's tall, does she dwarf other characters, more specifically male characters

3) Is her appearance accompanied by fanservice tropes (Male Gaze, Stripperiffic Boobs of Steel ....)

If the answer is yes to all three of these that it fits.

take a look at this wonder-woman pic

Regardless of the viewers opinion on whether or not she's attractive. The intent of the pic is clear that we're supposed to view this muscular wonder-woman as attractive.

After all trope is Ms. Fanservice with muscles, right? Well Ms. Fanservice implies that the character is meant to be viewed as attractive be the viewer.

azul120
02:31:19 AM Dec 22nd 2010
Or at least, Ms. Fanservice with a long, statuesque frame who can stand shoulder to shoulder if not tower over most male characters.

Added a few indices.
darkclaw
08:50:20 PM Dec 22nd 2010
edited by darkclaw
Yeah, you both are right, the litmus test is begging for Trope Decay. Sorry for the late reply, I'll go fix up the litmus test now. Tell me what you think when I am done changing it.
azul120
10:24:15 PM Dec 22nd 2010
I think it works. Though it doesn't really have to be at least most male characters in the cast for the height part.
darkclaw
08:18:17 AM Dec 23rd 2010
edited by darkclaw
Thanks. By the way, I just fixed the height part.
azul120
04:36:46 PM Dec 23rd 2010
One more thing: the image. I think something emphasizing height a bit more would drive the point a bit better. Not that it's not a nice pic, but one doesn't think crouching pose with the word Amazon.

By the way, what do you think of Glamazon as an alt. nickname redirect?
darkclaw
05:09:43 PM Dec 23rd 2010
edited by darkclaw
I think the alt. nickname "Glamazon" would work. However, there may be a YKTTW attached to that.

As for the pic, yeah, you're right, I'll start looking for a better one. If you have any ideas, feel free to post them.
ykttw archive back to Main/AmazonianBeauty

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