Main A Nazi By A Ny Other Name Discussion

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Draconzis
Topic
09:28:53 PM Feb 15th 2017
I suggest the last part of the description concerning the Alt-Right should be removed. The line in question: "Not to be confused with the real life white supremacist group known as the "Alternative Right." Despite what they might tell you, they are, in fact, neo-Nazis." Although I am not an Alt-Right, I believe T Vtropes should refrain from dealing with politics unless necessary. And in this case I definitely find the quote unnecessary.

Larkmarn
06:55:02 AM Feb 16th 2017
Agreed.

... example doesn't even make sense. They're a textbook Real Life example of A Nazi by Any Other Name... and this is a NRLEP page.
Wereboar
Topic
03:23:04 AM Dec 31st 2016
It seems that people have great troubles understanding what this trope means, with mistaking it for 'Putting on the Reich' being the most common offence. I believe that this article requires a massive clean-up. Below, you can find my explanation of why some erroneous entries should be removed. If you do not object, I'll remove them in the near future.

[[Film - Live Action]]

The City of Lost Children - This is a non-example. It doesn't explain how the movie fits into this trope.

Harry Potter - If the Death Eaters resemble KKK, they do not belong here, as KKK have very little in common with Nazis (sure, they shared racist ideology, but Klansmen would be aggravated to learn that someone called them _socialists_). So, this entry should be removed or rewritten so a supremacist ideology against Mudbloods including murder and potential genocide takes prominence.

Robocop 2 - The OCP, although run by individuals of dubious morality, is a private corporation that shares no similarities with a Nazi regime. They do what all big companies do - amass wealth, sometimes using underhanded ways. Sure, their logotype is somewhat reminiscent of Third Reich flag, (they are bad guys, after all) but that's 'Putting on the Reich'.

Starship Troopers - This is 'Puting On the Reich', nothing more. Fan theories are completely irrelevant (the movie contains what movie does contain, nothing more) and in the movie the Earth is attacked by alien life forms that resemble terran animals rather than intelligent, sentient race. Additionally, the movie is shown almost solely from the military standpoint. Little glimpses viewer has into the portrayal of the society show that it is a pretty normal 20th century American society during the wartime with some Roman Republic overtones (homage to original novel). Virtually no politics, no racial supremacy, no persecutions of the minorities. In a word, nothing that would warrant this trope. And no, Neil Patrick Harris is not Herr Doktor Doogie Mengele, PHD, NSDAP - he is a normal scientist trying to understand an alien enemy (exactly like player does in UFO: Enemy Unknown video game).

Star Wars - The Rebel decoration ceremony at the end of the movie has absolutely nothing to do with this trope. Rebels share no similarities with Nazis and their military style does not even qualify them for 'Putting on the Reich'. Sure, there is a small visual similarity with the scene roughly one hour into the 'Triumph', but this is a staple military/decoration ceremony and its shares as much with 'Triumph of the Will' as it does with 'Police Academy'. So, this entry is pure natter.

V for Vendetta - Again, the Norsefire is almost solely 'Putting on the Reich'. The government is strictly statist and totalitarian, but it also does not share any similarities with National Socialism - there is no racial, supremacist or even military component to it (it is statist-puritan). Secret Police fights dissidents, but this is a staple of any totalitarian regime. Despite heavy-handed approach to make the leader of the Norsefire an Hitler's Expy, he is almost direct copy of Orwell's Big Brother.

[[Music Video]]

Pearl Jam "Do the Evolution" - This trope is not about historical usage of Nazis, but only for depiction of fictional movements and characters sharing similarities with Nazi Germany. So, it does not belong here. The symbol mentioned was used so that the music video could be broadcasted in Germany and other countries prohibiting the public display of totalitarian imagery out of historical context.

[[Tabletop Games]]

Warhammer - Skaven are hardly analogous to Third Reich. They do not form a tightly-controlled Empire but they are motley of squabbling clans (and it is heavily implied that if not for chaotic nature of Skavendom, the Old World could have been overrun long time ago). Skaven are hell-bent on conquest but they do not follow any ideology - they just want to fight and conquer. Other elements mentioned hardly matter - horrible experiments are par of the course for all chaotic forces and the imagery is incidental (Skaven use a mix of pictograms and ideograms).

Warhammer 40000 - Despite startling similarities, the Empire of Man is primarily feudal, so all the tropes related to purity are much closer to stereotypal Inquisition by the way of 'Burn the Witch' approach. If anything, Empire of Man is a Holy Roman Empire (or even medieval Christendom) IN SPACE, cranked up to eleven. Also, the imagery is definitely medieval/rennaissance - full armors, elaborate banners, lots and lots of Bling of War etc.

It is worth noting that even the whole 'purity' thing stems from the fact that mutations can be (and usually are) the sign of Chaos corruption which is a very real and very dangerous thing in the universe. Emprie also seems to be illy disposed towards the races they know only through war (Eldars, mostly) and they have no problems with embracing metahumans (ratlings, ogryns etc.).

[[Video Game]]

Crimson Skies - Members of Die Spinne are not 'Nazis by Any Other Name', they are Nazis fair and square. To be more precise, Die Spinne is the 'fifth column' organization working on behalf of the Third Reich and reporting to Nazi military intelligence officers in a 'Divided States of America' type of alternative history.
jormis29
02:40:36 PM Dec 31st 2016
Norsefire put Jews, homosexuals and a bunch of other races into concentration camps they most certainly have a racial supremest component
Nithael
05:03:21 PM Dec 31st 2016
I've only seen the movie, but I also remember the Quran being banned in V for Vendetta', which also implies persecution against Muslims. And I haven't seen Starship Troopers in a while, but they did seem to have clear fascist undertones (with their glorification of the army, notably).
JAYDAKID977
Topic
06:06:43 AM May 29th 2016
I wanted to put down PETA, but real life examples aren't allowed. D:
Larkmarn
02:15:37 PM May 31st 2016
... way to demonstrate exactly why.
mrgideon
Topic
07:09:43 AM May 27th 2013
The Avengers - I'm going to argue that "there are always men like you," while mostly evocative of Hitler, isn't just about that. It's an old german guy who's been through everything that the world (and specifically germany) has been through since the time of the Nazis, and arguably, when you take into account east Germany, communism (including the various dictatorships througout Europe) and the sheer number of tinpot despots that cropped up and flourished for however long in assorted small countries around the world) then they're just the most well known of a cavalcade of infamy. Not just "there have been men like you" but "there are always men like you." Recognising that whatever political system and era, men of that stripe will always try and gather power, has been, will be. Pretty well-done statement, actually.
Theophenes
Topic
12:47:48 AM Aug 30th 2012
Err, would the Coalition in The RIF Ts Setting be a decent reference here. Never mind the outfits, they do have a very specific set of rules about the extermination of Dimensional Beings and mutates to "protect" the human race. Anyone here have some better material on this subject?
ThatHuman
Topic
08:50:19 AM May 18th 2012
I removed this example:

Kuroshitsuji: Perhaps not so much unity given how we only ever see one, but angels, or at least fallen ones, MAY be this. They desire (ill-defined) purity and detest (equally ill-defined) unclenliness. Given Angela's Madness Mantra condemns the unwanted, unfruitful and the unnecessary, her Meaningful Name ( Blanc) as well as the sheer level of depravity to which s/he will stoop to achieve this end, it should at least remind you of SOMETHING.

Looks like shoehorning. There is no "may". Something either is an example, or it isn't. And anyway, form what I've seen, it's so vague that there's not much to say that this counts anyway.
DannyM
Topic
02:38:10 PM Sep 14th 2011
edited by DannyM
You may find this profound:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I assert that the USA's pre-1942 Bellamy salute used in the USA for 50 years has NEVER been portrayed in TV or movies filmed post-1942, even thought the setting is pre-1942:

[1]

And I propose this: The A Nazi by Any Other Name trope has made it impossible! ANY attempt to normalize this and say "no, this is not fascism, it's just the way the US did things" is a TEXTBOOK execution of A Nazi by Any Other Name, and the audience will interpret it as such and the characters are in foolish denial of the situation, which will probably cock up the way the movie's supposed to be watched and then confuse everyone.

Consider the paradox here: any attempt to explain "no, this is not a Nazi thing" will always be interpreted as "normalized fascism" subtext. No matter how you do it. Any way you try to write it and say "there is no subtext here" will only reinforce the audience's belief that there IS supposed to be a fascist subtext here.

Furthermore, it'd be difficult to work in an explanation of such an everyday thing without being anviliciously, insufferably didactic. This salute would raise no question in pre-1942 drama, so there's no explanation of why a character would talk about it. The actor would have to go Breaking the Fourth Wall and talk completely out-of-character to explain how it only became fascist in ~1940!

You'd have to set a plot in the ~1940 window where it was controversial, or in the short window in post-1942 where some people hadn't gotten the memo and still tried to Bellamy-salute the flag and someone explains how that's no longer cool.

That's hard to make "interesting" to viewers proportional to how much of a plot setup it would require to explain. So, essentially, the Bellamy salute has been forever wiped (actually, it's a Retcon of real-life history!) from fiction and even historical films/biopics, as an inadvertent consequence of the A Nazi by Any Other Name trope.
71.80.226.45
Topic
04:07:33 PM Apr 8th 2011
Can you guys put Israel off it becuase the situation is more complex than you know it.Yes,Israel should try to treat the Palestianians better but you seem to ignore they have gone through a bunch of crap during the decades.Yes,they built a wall but what do you expect when Hamas is continually mounting strike after strike.No,Israel is not trying to wipe out the Palestians but are trying to still exist as a country.And yes they need to be called on for the bad stuff they do.But comparing them to the Nazis just trivalizes the situation.
sveni
04:11:24 PM Apr 19th 2011
Inverted: Can you guys put Nazi-Germany off it becuase the situation is more complex than you know it.Yes,Nazi-Germany should try to treat the Jews better but you seem to ignore they have gone through a bunch of crap during the decades like loosing the WW1 and the great derpression.Yes,they built concentration camps but what do you expect when Jews have more money than Germans.No,Nazi-Germany is not trying to wipe out the Jews but are trying to still exist as a country, you know, cities for others, camps for others.And yes they need to be called on for the bad stuff they do.But comparing them to the Israelians just trivalizes the situation.

Yeah. No similarities what so ever.
jazzflower92
04:28:58 PM Apr 20th 2011
Here's the deal Israel from the start never tried to wipe out the Palestinian people as a whole.And also comparing money to constant terrorists attack is different.And what you just did was an awful God's win law.Besides Israel has been called out for their stuff when it happens.Plus Nazi Germany also acted as an empire who wanted to conquer Europe.Also the citizens of Israel are not indoctrine to be totally loyal to the state.Yes,some of the people in state and some of the soldiers are can be assholes but don't try to pin the swatiska on all of Israel.Plus you seem to forget the Nazi's put out their every intent to see the Jews totally anihallated.And most of all their have been some effort on Israel's side to help the Palestinians. Yes, the leadership needs to look for peace but you guys take God's win law and make it black and white.I don't ignore Israel's faults but people tend to look at distort all her failures in order to forget the Palestinaian's faults as well.And when I means it's faults I pinning this one on Hamas.Hamas can be the biggest reason behind what's happening.I won't ignore Israel must do better at giving Palestine more relief effort or its continuing settlments on the Gaza strip.All I am saying is Israel is flawed but stop putting up the God's win law card when it really isn't.
jazzflower92
04:29:01 PM Apr 20th 2011
Here's the deal Israel from the start never tried to wipe out the Palestinian people as a whole.And also comparing money to constant terrorists attack is different.And what you just did was an awful God's win law.Besides Israel has been called out for their stuff when it happens.Plus Nazi Germany also acted as an empire who wanted to conquer Europe.Also the citizens of Israel are not indoctrine to be totally loyal to the state.Yes,some of the people in state and some of the soldiers are can be assholes but don't try to pin the swatiska on all of Israel.Plus you seem to forget the Nazi's put out their every intent to see the Jews totally anihallated.And most of all their have been some effort on Israel's side to help the Palestinians. Yes, the leadership needs to look for peace but you guys take God's win law and make it black and white.I don't ignore Israel's faults but people tend to look at distort all her failures in order to forget the Palestinaian's faults as well.And when I means it's faults I pinning this one on Hamas.Hamas can be the biggest reason behind what's happening.I won't ignore Israel must do better at giving Palestine more relief effort or its continuing settlments on the Gaza strip.All I am saying is Israel is flawed but stop putting up the God's win law card when it really isn't.
sveni
06:28:31 AM May 10th 2011
I'm sure that Israel has her Freudian Excuse as does every other real life example, including Nazi-Germany. (Some of the fictional have them too.) This trope isn't about being exactly like Third Reich, or about being as bad. This is about having uncanny resemblance to Nazis. Having a military to keep your own citizens on check and segregating your minority in places that may have poor living conditions (you know, a bit like concentration camps) is uncanny resemblance where I'm standing. Even when all your examples do different Israel from Nazi-Germany.
joyflower
11:47:29 AM Sep 25th 2011
One thing also is that also that Hamas and the fact that even when Israel does right it still gets bitten by someone that takes advantage of it.Should it not be too harsh yes but living with neighbors who want you dead from day one kinda would make you a Broken Bird.
Iqbal
Topic
02:26:09 PM Apr 3rd 2011
edited by Iqbal
Its hard to get the current image page as this trope we should try Gihren's Hail Zeon Pic
Jordan
Topic
07:33:13 PM Nov 14th 2010
This one troper keeps trying to add in the Avatar baddies, and seems to have a very extreme/exaggerated hatred for them.

As bad as Quaritch and co. are, they definitely are not this trope, as would be clear from the description. They aren't used as a Nazi analogue- they're more like an analogue for American treatment of Native Americans/European behavior under Imperialism. If you aren't a Nazi analogue, you do not belong on this page.

Iqbal
06:48:39 PM Dec 24th 2010
The Sleeves Geara Zulu from Gundam Unicorn looks more like a Nazi heck all Zeon's are Nazi Based even The Flag
HawktureShorts155
10:20:34 PM Apr 1st 2011
I was wondering how this trope is any different from Putting on the Reich?
Kersey475
12:09:21 PM Jun 7th 2011
Where do we put examples that are analogues to other political groups (i.e. Fascists, Socialists, etc.)?
ElodieHiras
02:24:24 AM Oct 26th 2011
edited by ElodieHiras
Putting on the Reich is stylistic (when the evil army's uniforms are reminiscent of real life uniform worn by armies we consider evil), while A Nazi by Any Other Name is, well, fantasy counterpart nazis.
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