Main A Ll Loving Hero Discussion

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FoolsEditAccount
Topic
06:15:08 AM Jul 13th 2015
edited by FoolsEditAccount
  • Link from The Legend of Zelda will help those around him, no matter what. Affiliation, race and different dimension mean little to him. To him helping is helping. This is quite possible why hes the chosen of the Triforce Of Courage. It takes true courage to be willing to help so many people without a second thought for your safety.

I don't think this counts. While the games do lean towards this interpretation, it is an Informed Attribute at best. I mean, Link is a Heroic Mime to begin with, so hard character traits are few and far between and any characterization interpretation for him should be subjective. But something that is set in stone is that he's an Action Hero who solves all his problems with violence. That seems antithetical to the concept of an All-Loving Hero; to me, they're people who purposefully avoid jumping to the easy but destructive solution in favor of seeing the goodness in everyone, even their enemies. Link doesn't do that.

Also, "Affiliation, race and different dimension mean little to him"? Yeah, they mean little to him unless you're a zora or moblin or under the effects of Demonic Possession or the gods told him you were evil, in which case he'll cut you to ribbons without remorse. He's not very nice to the Gerudo, either. And let's not forget that he is capable of killing a harmless NPC in cold blood. Or that he used that pure heart of his to murder someone.
Larkmarn
01:18:42 PM Jul 13th 2015
edited by Larkmarn
That's, uh, some hilarious demonizing of Link you got going on there. Seriously, your attacks on Link are pretty much nonsense.

Now, what is a somewhat valid point is that he might have so little characterization that he doesn't count aside from decisions that players make. But even that is sort of undercut by the fact that, as you yourself said, "the games lean towards this interpretation." How you feel about it, and whether it's an Informed Attribute is irrelevant. If the games present him as such, then he'd qualify.
FoolsEditAccount
02:47:24 PM Jul 13th 2015
edited by FoolsEditAccount
"Seriously, your attacks on Link are pretty much nonsense."

How so? They are all objectively true events that occur in the source material. I'm not trying to demonize him — that's all standard behavior for a video game Action Hero — but I really do not understand how people can look at that and come away with All-Loving Hero. The only character in the examples I know of who is both an Action Hero and All-Loving Hero is Vash from Trigun, who makes a point of never killing anyone and tries to avoid violence whenever possible. (Edit: Oh, and Aang I guess? But, again, a very big deal is made of how he can't bring himself to kill even the Big Bad.) Link, being a Heroic Mime, doesn't get that introspection and internal conflict, so all we're left with is someone who fights a lot. I therefore don't see the basis for applying the archetype to him.

"If the games present him as such, then he'd qualify."

They don't, though. The narration leans toward him being a Nice Guy (in some games, anyway), but that's a far cry from All-Loving Hero, which is a pretty high bar. I'm honestly a little baffled why people are so quick to attribute character traits to a character who is purposefully designed as a blank slate for the player to project on to. Refraining from attaching behavioral tropes to him makes the most sense to me.
Larkmarn
05:45:12 AM Jul 14th 2015
You paint Link like he's some sort of silent Blood Knight who does nothing but hack through every problem he encounters. The problem with that is the majority of his sidequests are fetchquests and the like, he gets most of his items through helping people and hitting the Karmic Jackpot. As the writeup said, he goes out of his way to help anyone who needs help, no matter their species or what-have-you. Your comments on Fantastic Racism are ridiculous since he's perfectly okay with any Zora that doesn't try to kill him on the spot (see Link's Awakening for that). Or the fact that in Termina one of the first things he does is help Koume and Kotoke, despite them looking like people who tried to kill him and a friend back in Hyrule, which is necessitated by the plot.

Like I said, a lack of characterization is a valid point. But everything else you say is not, which casts a lot of doubt on your words.
FoolsEditAccount
07:02:17 AM Jul 15th 2015
edited by FoolsEditAccount
"As the writeup said, he goes out of his way to help anyone who needs help, no matter their species or what-have-you."

Not true. The player has the option of making him go out of his way to help people, but they also have the option of not pursuing those sidequests. Even for the fetch quests necessitated by the plot, there is no reason to believe he is doing those things out of the goodness of his heart, since they are required to progress and often result in great personal benefits. For instance, many Majora's Mask players only re-fix the regions on subsequent cycles if they can get something out of it (like the sword upgrade). If Link's character is an extension of player behavior, that potentially casts him as a pretty amoral person who only helps people with the knowledge he'll be rewarded. (Edit: Oh actually, in Oracle of Ages the final Chain of Deals recipient implies Link is pretty steamed about only getting a broken sword, so this might actually be canon.) And maybe he's secretly bitter and hateful about having to help gorons/zora/whatevers but grits his teeth and goes along with it because he has no other choice? That's a purposefully negative and cynical theory, but there's just as much hard evidence for it as him being a perfect saint. Which is to say, none at all.

Even if we remove the player influence argument and try to view him as his own character, his actions aren't reflective of above-and-beyond saint-like goodness. He just protects innocent bystanders and stops evil megalomaniacs from taking over the world; I think that's simply what any normal, non-sociopathic person would do in his situation. As I said, All-Loving Hero is a very high bar and I don't see any evidence for Link fitting it. His first method for dealing with the bad guys is always violence, never an idealistic speech about The Power of Friendship.

tl;dr Nice Guy =/= All-Loving Hero
SeptimusHeap
Topic
04:56:45 AM Jun 19th 2013
edited by 70.33.253.44
The Messiah was renamed to All-Loving Hero per TRS
Madrugada
05:08:16 AM Jun 19th 2013
edited by 216.99.32.42
I think you mean All-Loving Hero... Messianic Archetype is a Jesus-like figure. I think it was a split, or something not entirely unlike a split.
SeptimusHeap
07:20:57 AM Jun 19th 2013
Yeah, I mixed these damned trope names up. Fixd it.
ading
Topic
05:06:54 AM Aug 1st 2012
edited by ading

I deleted this because I don't think Harry really qualifies for this. As I understand it, the idea of the messiah is that they're, essentially, incapable of hatred or violence. Harry's willing to torture and kill for his cause, and a large part of his motive is vengeance, so I don't think he's an example. Dark Messiah, maybe.
MagBas
Topic
01:10:39 PM Sep 30th 2011
  • The titular heroes in Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure are destined to form a band whose music forms the basis for a future utopia. The villain's attempts to prevent this result in the events in the film.
The Nakama is in utter shambles after Taichi gets sucked back into the real world,

Wheeler is not particularly nice or forgiving. The same thing to Taichi or Bill and Ted
9Darthmaul
Topic
03:33:39 AM May 1st 2011
I wonder if we need Real Life examples?! Complete Monster doesn't have Real Life examples. What's the difference with The Messiah??
vifetoile
11:45:44 PM Aug 18th 2014
Antoinette Tuff, Malala Yousafzai, and Mr. Rogers would all be good examples.
ChrisX
Topic
02:50:38 AM Oct 26th 2010
Is The Messiah allowed to dislike some few people?
TwinBird
Topic
09:07:34 AM Aug 2nd 2010
I've added a little note to the top cautioning the occasional editors who add examples of Messianic Archetype - good idea? Bad idea? Good thought but too bold?
204.52.215.148
Topic
01:07:14 PM Apr 3rd 2010
No, Sailor Moon is not a good example, see Just a Face and a Caption for details. In short, a picture of a person is only acceptable if the trope is intrinsically associated with that person (aka, for this article, Jesus or Menachem Shnearson, depending on whom you ask) or if the trope is about face or body image. Since Sailor Moon is an example, and not a Trope Maker or Trope Namer or even all that well known, she doesn't fit as an image. No idea about formatting tho'.
TwinBird
09:06:12 AM Aug 2nd 2010
While I'd say Jesus is an example, he wouldn't be a good picture because it would further the confusion with Messianic Archetype.
LadyGaga4ever
Topic
01:02:17 PM Apr 3rd 2010
Oh my goodness, is Sailor Moon, REALLY a good example to the poster definition?! How exactly do you put in the pictures?
LadyGaga4ever
Topic
01:02:03 PM Apr 3rd 2010
Oh my goodness, is Sailor Moon, REALLY a good example to the poster definition?! How exactly do you put in the pictures?
99.252.48.17
Topic
01:20:36 AM Mar 20th 2010
as a point of addition to the section of Warcraft Characters who fall under this trope - King Varyan Wrynn of Stronmwind is possibly the best example of a Messiah in the game/Lore. better even then Jayn proudmore. which is saying something.

Most people look At Varyan and comment how the man needs to look Past the past. give peace a Chance. what they fail to realise, is that he had been the strongest Advocate for peace with the Orcs and co-existance since his youth.

Lets begin Listing bad things the Orcs did to Varyan in his youth. they burned his kingdom, had his father murdered before his very eyes. and drove him from his home. later when the alliance was tryign to retake Azeroth, his Father figure, Anduin Wrynn, the man whom his father considered his closest friend, who raised Varyian in his fathers abscence, was murdered while attempting to negotiate a peace.

fast forward. the orcs are defeated. the alliance leaders almost to a one Propose to exterminate the Orcs. Varyan? he pleads for them to be spared. When the man who has lost everything to your hated enemies is pleading the case for mercy... well... you kinda have to take a step back and re-evaluate the situation. end result. orcs are put into internment camps.

Fast forward another couple of decades. Wrynn is now put into the position of aknowledging a new orcish Nation. which he is willing to do. ON his way to peace talks to attempt to cement the peace that has been forming after the defeat of the burning legion, Wrynn is kidnaped. He winds up shipwrecked, looses his memory and is enslaved by orcs. he is branded an alliance deserter by Regdar Earthfury and made to fight in the orcish arena circuit. finaly he regains his freedom. You'd think most people by this point would have given up on peace with the Horde. Wrynn? Not a chance. Jayna and Varyan set up another Peace summit. who does Thrall bring to this summit? Regdar Earthfury. who else attends the summit? Garona Halforcen. the very same orc who murdered his father in front of him. does it get worse? yes. garona attempts to assasinate Wrynn at the summit. never mind that she is under mind control at the time. does Wrynn give up after this? does he give up when most sane peopel would? nope. Does he attempt for another peace talk? not exactly. he decides to let things simmer down for a bit and decides to focus on the Bigger enemy. the Lich King.

now, while the following is not exactly Thralls doing. it is his fault in that he did not prevent it. the point that finaly broke Wrynn of his Messiah Trope? the Battle of the Wrathgate. the Forsaken rebel at the climax of the battle. costing Varyan Wrynn the Life of his Best friend, a man who was like a brother to him the Majority of his lifetime. the very same man who stood in for Wrynn during his imprisonment within the Horde gladitorial circuit, and not only helped raise his Son, but also kept his Realm together.

I don't know about you. but i would have broken a bit before he did and my friends regard me as a Messiah with a Martyr complex

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