Literature Worm Discussion

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02:39:40 AM Mar 22nd 2017
The Pirates Who Don't Do Anything. After two months ONE of the characters has the following list of crimes:
  • Taylor later has a rather impressive list of her own read to her. To summarize:
2 charges of criminal negligence with a parahuman ability 77+ charges of assault 7 charges of aggravated assault 6 charges of assaulting a law enforcement officer Assault in the third degree 52+ charges of battery 6 cases of battering a law enforcement officer 113 charges of willful felony assault 33 charges of hostage taking Domestic terrorism Robbery Property damage Willful damage to government property. 4 charges of destruction of government property 2 charges of disturbing the peace. Complicity towards one count of kidnapping Complicity in class two extortion Criminal extortion False imprisonment with a parahuman ability. Treason Complicity in treason 19 charges of complicity in manslaughter Probably more hostage taking Murder “However you’d charge putting maggots in someone’s eyeballs. In self-defense.” Premeditated murder of a law enforcement officer

To top that off the Undersiders get dangerously close to getting a kill order on them when Regent takes control of Shadow Stalker and when he refuses to relinquish control of Shatterbird.

The entry also flat out ignores their assault on a massive group of heroes and civilians which happens very early in the story. The story also spans a relatively short span of time, you wouldn't say that the people in the Fast and Furious movies aren't doing anything just because they take breaks inbetween jobs. What's the point of being a pirate if you don't get to take breaks and enjoy you illegally begotten goods?
12:54:53 PM Jul 7th 2014
Man, all of the bullying stuff with Taylor is like a punch to the gut...

I've dealt with a lot of stuff like that too, and I've even met other people who felt the same way. Unfortunately for us, our families are usually abusive too, not just the people at school...

I feel a lot like both Taylor and her dad. Sometimes I've even felt like giving death threats to people and actually meaning it and it's scary...

I tried to tell my friend Precious about this story. I'm not sure if she's interested or not.

Anyway, with the teachers and parents involved with the bullies during a conference meeting in 5.4 added in, it just makes things worse... I really hate Emma's dad Alan. -_- Ugh, I want to punch him for real, but he's just a character in a web book. :p Technically though, they could easily be people like this in real life, minus all the powers. Seems so real actually... Well, I'd want to punch them in the face. :p Though I'd probably get in trouble the same way Taylor does, or implied to be. ^^;

Also, Child of Light and this story reminds me of how in Dante's Inferno at least, one of the worst sins is Treason, beyond the seven deadly sins. It keeps making me think of how much of a despicable monster these two people are, without even a seemingly good reason for doing so...

Hell, Child of Light's even seems like a Complete Monster (they certainly crossed the Moral Event Horizon anyway. I can't believe they tried to kill you with poison gas before you even get to fight them when pretty much everyone is just a kid! :( But I guess if you're a villain, you got to go the extra mile to make sure their out of the way... but, yeah... Giving it too much Fridge Logic is going to give me Nightmare Fuel, so I'll stop there. ^^;).
01:02:13 PM Jan 20th 2014
Classification of Worm's examples on trope pages Worm's main page is a Literature page, but examples for worm are usually listed under Web Original. (An example of this is the Wham Episode page). It's only slightly confusing, but is that the norm for web serial examples or a mistake?
02:24:06 PM Jan 20th 2014
To my knowledge, web novels are usually put into the Web Original folder.
03:56:49 AM Jan 1st 2014
Removing or altering the edits of Rook Encountre, with the following justifications:

This isn't what happened.

  • Contessa set this in motion when she killed Scion's counterpart and founded Cauldron with Doctor Mother, using the counterpart's body to create the formula. If they hadn't killed the counterpart, Scion wouldn't have decided to kill off humanity out of despair, and the cycle would have lasted another almost 300 years.

Scion and his partner would have killed off all possible Earths anyway, so this doesn't qualify for Create Your Own Villain. Whether this qualifies as From Bad to Worse, given the results, is arguable.
09:32:43 PM Nov 23rd 2013
The following example:

  • Brick Joke: After the Slaughterhouse Nine arc, Cherish is trapped in the bottom of the harbor generating a suicide-induicing aura. This turns out handy for dealing with the severly schyzophrenic Butcher several arcs later.

is a common misuse of Brick Joke: a return of a plot element that is not a joke. I think the correct trope is Call Back.

(If I am wrong, I am quite sorry — if I were not groggy from sleep deprivation right now, I would check and make sure of it.)
09:55:43 PM Nov 23rd 2013
Chekov's Gun would be a better trope.
06:46:57 PM Nov 25th 2013
edited by
02:12:38 PM Oct 29th 2013
Is it worth getting rid of spoiler tags now that the story is effectively finished?
09:45:02 AM Oct 30th 2013
I would say not, seeing as there are 5 epilogue chapters and 1 irregular chapter yet to be posted that could end up as sequel hooks or outright spoilers for the sequel.
03:48:52 PM Nov 6th 2013
edited by
Spoiler tags are needed in general, and for a work with so many twists and revelations as Worm are absolutely necessary. It does make for an uglier page, with all the blanks, but I believe there are enough warnings about it on the synopsis. Besides most subpages are not spoilertaped over.
09:56:23 AM Oct 3rd 2013
So Axel/Polokun's been vandalizing other pages to spread his hilarious rape claims. Any volunteers to go through and track them down?
03:34:35 AM Oct 6th 2013
If there's a systematic vandalizing or trolling across multiple pages you should contact a moderator, otherwise there's edit wars across multiple pages, and that just pisses a lot of people off.
05:51:00 PM Oct 7th 2013
wha? whats this he's going on about now?
07:15:41 AM Sep 23rd 2013
I'd like to ask people familiar with this work about one wick.

  • Coordinated Clothes: The Travelers all dress in black and red, New Wave dresses in similar white and their preferred color costumes, and the Wards wear identical concealing body suits to help surprise the 9.

I'd like to point out that Coordinated Clothes is only for romantic couples, twins, siblings, those two guys, close friends or very small groups.

The write-up is not quite clear how big said groups are. If they are some organization of sorts, they won't fit. (When the trope was in YKTTW phase, we talked about including uniforms and same-dressed teams and organizations, but it was ruled out as either a different trope, or People Sit on Chairs.)
10:36:42 AM Sep 30th 2013
The Wards (junior branch of the state-sponsored super team) may not fit, but New Wave and the Travellers should be okay. New Wave is a small independent team of people related by blood or marriage and the Travellers are six people who were already (more or less friendly) acquaintances before becoming a supervillains.
06:26:11 PM Sep 19th 2013
  • Rule of Symbolism: A very subtle, but disturbing one. After the 'heroes' out Taylor's civilian identity. When Taylor surrenders a ring of soldiers gathers around her, screaming contradictory commands and waving weapons. They start getting physical just before Clockblocker steps in.
    Taylor:“Do you need me to take a different position?” I asked.
    Clockblocker: “Once upon a time, I would have had something clever to say in response to that,” he said, quiet.
    • To spell it out: a young teenage girl assaulted by a ring of thugs, saved by a superhero. The disturbing aspect is what Taylor says, drawing parallels to gang rape, and implying that Clockblocker might join in. Given how she's been treated by the Wards and Protectorate in the past, the implication is not lost on Clockblocker (who had only recently discovered the truth surrounding her past actions himself).

12:08:55 PM Sep 22nd 2013
edited by
I find this a bit stretched. While Clockie takes a weak stab at innuendo because he is the type of guy to make a joke like tha, I think the above is reading a bit too much into it.

A better example would be the Simurgh putting her wing up to resemble a rope, and reclining her head, while Lisa was watching (her brother hanged himself).

edit: btw, it would be either an in-universe example, or the simurgh invoking/exploiting the trope.

edit2: kindly keep the discussion civil and as swear free as possible please.
06:10:19 AM Sep 4th 2013
edited by
  • Not-So-Harmless Villain: For a long time in the story, Skitter's ability is seen by the city at large as weak and the PRT considers Tattletale and Regent more dangerous. In fact, perhaps only three characters in the entire story have ever realized just how damn dangerous Skitter actually was. Alexandria had no idea who she was messing with.

I have a couple issues with this:

a. I think it might belong on the character page.
b. I don't think Skitter actually becomes a Big Bad in the way the trope describes — Underestimating Badassery covers most of what this trope purports to.
c. The count of "three" is highly dubious.

To elaborate on the last point a bit: if Skitter does follow the trope, she reaches Big Bad status before the cafeteria, which means before Alexandria. A logical point to cite for Skitter's apparent gain of a level in badass is probably Triumph — i.e. the first point at which the heroes see Skitter, solo, win a major fight.

That morning, I would say the following people definitely have an accurate sense of how dangerous Skitter is:

1. Tattletale.
2. Bitch ("Lung underestimated her, too").
3. Dinah.

...and the following people might:

4. Grue.
5. Regent.
6. Imp.
7. Clockblocker.
8. [edit] Armsmaster i.e. Defiant.

The "three" seems really dubious as a count, is what I'm saying.
11:59:29 AM Sep 4th 2013
A. I think it could go on both. It fits her as a character, but in terms of the story it is also a theme for her/The Undersiders. Numerous people didn't consider her a threat until it was too late. The merchants actually laughed at her when they invaded, Lung played around thinking she couldn't do a thing, Mannequin thought he was immune to her ability, and Alexandria acknowledged she was dangerous but really did think she was harmless to her power.

B. Underestimating Badassery does fit Taylor as a person, but I wanted to treat Skitter as a separate persona especially now that she is Weaver and doesn't like some of the things she as Skitter. She admits that she was a villain, and she herself tells Dragon she would be surprised what she was capable of during the lunchroom standoff. Cutting off Bakuda's toes, tearing out Lungs eyes, stabbing the Empire 88 gangmember, mauling the merchants, and fucking up Triumph so badly he came very close to dying. It fits Skitter because everyone didn't think of her as a threat until it was too late, and I don't think Taylor herself realized just how much nightmare fuel her power could really be.

Whether or not she reached Big Bad status then, the heroes thought she was harmless because it didn't fit her character to attack civilians. Her escape by peaceful protest could fit not so harmless again because it shows that she is still a huge threat even if she doesn't resort to violence. Skitter is a major threat because she is also very smart, has ALOT of influence with the civilian population, and doesn't even need to fight to win. She showed it again by outsmarting the PRT director in chicago as weaver but she isn't a villain at that point.

C. I can see your point, but I think there is a difference between acknowledging her as a dangerous villain and realizing the true extent of her capabilities. The heroes knew she beat Lung, but Triumph wasn't worried, Armsmaster wasn't worried, Grue was shocked that she dared to fight Mannequin-while someone who realized how dangerous she was would have thought it a even match, Coil knew she was dangerous but thought he could easily beat her,...etc. I'm talking about the people who realized that Taylor still held back, that fact that she thrives no matter the threat, and how smart she is in a fight. Tattletale probably knew now that I think about it, but Regent/Imp didn't really care enough to really try and figure out that she was the big gun of the group. Clockblocker has more experience fighting her than any other hero and was desperate to stop her from escaping, Rosary instantly surrendered despite the fact that she could have easily dropped a truck on her because she sensed the danger, and Theo knew Lung beat his father and lost badly to Skitter. A better example is when Miss Militia/Flechette have Taylor dead to rights in her territory and Miss Militia give her the gun. At that point they realized how damn dangerous Skitter was but that was after she pulled off so much. I was more talking about the people whose first thought when they first meet Skitter isn't to laugh and underestimate her, but who freak out when first meeting her.

You can change it if you want, no big deal. But I still think we should treat Skitter as a separate persona. Taylor did give up being a villain after all. Everyone did laugh at Skitter at first.
01:05:17 PM Sep 4th 2013
edited by
A. I think this and Underestimating Badassery should both be in the same place, but I can see the logic of putting them on the main page instead of the character page — they're about the position of the character within the story, rather than the character herself. I'll take a minute to think on that.

B. For all the That Man Is Dead attitude Taylor has towards Skitter, it makes logical sense to put all three of them — Taylor, Skitter, and Weaver — in the same character sheet entry.

As for the timing of the Not So Harmless transition, are you proposing that it is Alexandria's death that marks the key point? If so...

C. ...I'll readily concede your point about Triumph, Armsmaster, Grue, and Coil, but by the time you reach the cafeteria I think Dragon and Defiant know what they're dealing with — and I'm pretty sure that from Hive onwards Bitch knew exactly how good Skitter was. There may be a couple others (I'm not sure about Theo, personally), but that's enough to establish that, even if only a handful of people had an accurate assessment of the girl, it was more than three.

On those grounds, then, what about this as a rewrite?

  • Not-So-Harmless Villain: In-Universe, Skitter is widely considered to be one of the less dangerous supervillains in town, or indeed in the Undersiders — both because "bug control" sounds weak and because her distaste for hurting people means she doesn't have a track record of mayhem like a lot of the others. This is part of what contributes to an entire series of enemies underestimating her, climaxing with Alexandria not realizing Skitter could kill her singlehandedly.
02:07:14 PM Sep 4th 2013
Works for me.
04:45:20 PM Sep 4th 2013
While I'm ok with the entry as it is (and was as it was btw, nice cleanup however), I don't think Weaver and Skitter really belong on the same character entry.

Taylor is now a mix of the two, and has evolved a lot, but ultimately is the one with less screen time, and IMHO suffers a bit from Secret Identity Identity
03:49:11 AM Aug 9th 2013
As with Kinght Of Cerebus, I'm convinced Cerebus Syndrome cannot actually apply to the setting. The whole point of Cerebus is that it goes from cute antropomorphic animals to Warhammer as written by Machiavelli. Does not really appy to something that was already crapsack to begin with. It's From Bad to Worse.

Another thing: imho Protagonist Journey to Villain is Zig-Zagged. Taylor struggles a lot with her heroic and villanious sides. Some times she's genuinely a villain, some others a genuine hero, and ultimately she's Rorschach with a mask on.
08:41:52 AM Sep 3rd 2013
I agree — Cerebus Syndrome describes a work that starts lighthearted and funny, which Worm doesn't.
01:47:10 AM Jul 11th 2013
Is Taylor a huge Hypocrite? Being a "Villain" that uses intimidation, terror and even pain to keep "her" territory safe, how is she any different from a bully? She's using fear and pain to get what she wants out of people, just like the girls who bullied her. This makes her seem majorly unsympathetic from this point of view.
06:32:11 PM Jul 16th 2013
Another reason she's a hypocrite, she keeps goign on about how ok it is to do immoral things for good reasons. So why does she hate all the official capes on what they do when its the same thing, even if it's bigger scale?
05:39:52 AM Jul 18th 2013
1- she's different because a bully does intimidate etc for kicks. she does it to protect people. I think it's extremely obvious. (e.g.: see the Appeal to Force entry)

2- she does not. she does not like such people calling themselves heroes and getting all the good pr, or does not like them acting the hero for selfish motives. If you're referring to Cauldron it's a question of scale mainly: there IS a difference between lying to someone and kidnapping, killing, torturing and vivisecting thousands of people. Maybe less obvious but not much more so.
01:47:47 PM Jul 18th 2013
edited by
1. It's still the same methods. After all, didn't her own former friend try to justify her bullying as well?

2. She has currently mutilated, tortured and killed people for the greater good so she's no longer any different from Cauldron. It's obvious that she's getting worse and worse, not unlike Superman in Red Son. If she could control the whole world just so that it would be better in her own eyes, she would.
01:23:11 AM Jul 19th 2013
1 - Yes, she did, with a "the stronger wins" approach. And again, there's some difference between beating up people because, say, you want to mug them or because you want to defend someone from a mugger. It's a question of morality

2 - She did villainous stuff as a villain, and most of the creepier stuff was either because she was in an imbalanced state or because, well, coil. Cauldron as an organization does not exactly have the "I was really depressed" excuse. It's a question of both ethics and scale
01:29:00 AM Jul 19th 2013
1. Her powers obviously give her a multitude of ways of takign care of a problem as she clearly shows. But she deliberately always goes for the most traumatizing/horrifying ways. Yet the muggers and bad people still keep coming. So trying to be terrifying is no longer a valid reason. She obviously still chooses these methods because she ENJOYS making her victims suffer.

2. So her motto should really be "Do the sorta wrong things for the right reasons"? She constantly argues with more idealistic heroes that there is no scale of morality and that if it's for the right reasons, she's justified in whatever she does. Maybe she's not as big as Cauldron yet, but what's to stop her from one day being just like them? She's clearly getting more and more loose morals.
05:06:12 PM Jul 23rd 2013
The series tagline is "doing the wrong thing for the right reasons." Everyone in the series, with the possible exception of Jack Slash who's just insane, thinks that they're doing the right thing. The difference is and will always remain the scale of the wrong things weighted against the scale of the right reasons. The disagreement between these scales is what drives the conflict in the story.

I agree with you that Taylor is in some sense a hypocrite, but keep in mind that this is in many ways a coming-of-age story. Taylor is constantly changing as a character, trying to find her place in the world as is the challenge of any young adult. It's this struggle to find meaning and purpose that makes the character interesting.

Also, your slippery slope fallacies are annoying, so please stop using them, and try not to insert entirely made-up justifications such as "she enjoys making people suffer" into your argument. I find that it weakens it extensively and makes it very unlikely to be taken seriously. There are plenty of good arguments that Taylor is a hypocrite without resorting to inventing malicious motivations for her actions.
09:58:45 PM Jun 24th 2013
Pulled this description of A Day in the Limelight from the page and rewrote completely — leaving old text here for reference:

  • A Day in the Limelight: The author regularly does Interludes between chapters or because of donations that focus on someone other than Taylor, to avoid being limited by the 1st person format, to build characterisation, to allow the Foreshadowing of future events or just to show the reader how the other characters are getting on. They often feature major information that is either not present in the main story or is not revealed until much later.
    • The only problem with them, concomitant with another detail of the story, is that he only does one interlude per character. Cue Skitter's identity revealed to the public and later her incarceration by the PRT and the fans bemoaning the fact that Danny's perspective was expended in the first chapter.
09:52:26 PM Jun 21st 2013
theo is confirmed to be golem, should we merge his character entries or leave them separate to avoid spoilers?
01:13:22 AM Jun 24th 2013
edited by
Separated, it's tidier and they have different tropes anyway (one being a superhero, and one not)

We should probably create a Boston wards entry. And put Weaver in there too. As in a separate entity from Skitter, some different tropes there too, and some of the shared one apply differently (e.g.: The Worm That Walks is deconstructed with Weaver, thanks to the butterflies and the meddling PR guy, played straight with Skitter)

edit: there's already a boston wards entry... how about giving a short list of codenames and short power description, with a big warning that the teams contains more spoilers you can shake a stick at, and they're all unmarked otherwise we'll have to blank the whole entry? Leaves us free not to blank weaver's entry, and it's generic enough not to give anything away.

edit2: Flechette and Foil too.
10:02:10 PM Jun 24th 2013
I'm not sure how we want to play characters who switch teams — what I did with the Undersiders was simply include a block of text that mentioned the characters recruited to the team whose entries were on the other pages. Without having different character pages circa each arc, I don't know that there's a better solution for avoiding excessive spoilers.
07:03:36 AM Jun 25th 2013
In the boston ward's case, just giving a list of codenames, then placing the unspoilered and tropified list in a folder should be enough. But that's only for them.

For the duplication: it's not really one, because different tropes apply to e.g. Skitter and Weaver, or the same trope applies differently. Hell, most of the tropes about Armsmaster do not really apply at all to Defiant.
06:24:13 AM May 9th 2013
edited by
I was wondering if Taylor's lawyer, Calle, was a DC Comics Shout-Out.

He's a lawyer scarred on one side of the face and his name reads like "Kal-El".
09:40:33 PM May 14th 2013
The comments figured he was Tony Montana.
02:59:41 PM Apr 29th 2013
Genetics and trigger events (Nature versus nurture).

Okay, just got finished archive-binging.

We might have an erroneous or alternate interpretation here for:

Superpowerful Genetics: Played with — children and siblings of parahumans have trigger events more easily, but adopted children also have trigger events more easily.

Lamarck Was Right: the justification is a major part of the setting. The Superpowerful Genetics in The Verse do not actually work on genetics, but by being a Cosmic Plaything. To the point that adopted kids of supers have the same chance of developing powers that biological kids have.

The "adopted children" thing is primarily aimed at Panacea (the healer).

During my read, it's somewhat implied that first-gen heroes/villains who trigger are emotionally/psychologically screwed up in numerous ways. It's also implied, during interludes involving Panacea's, that these damaged individuals have also damaged their children (in subtle or over ways).

Brandish (Glory Girl's mother and Panacea's foster-mother) and her sister were abused as children. She didn't even particularly WANT children, but bowed to pressure from her husband. And VERY grudgingly adopted Panacea (as her sister couldn't handle another kid) after they took down Marquis (who reminded her of the person who'd abused her). So Panacea was more or less the "unwanted step-child".

While Flashbang (Brandish's husband) tried to give the girl attention and love, he (also) was dealing with psych issues (clinical depression) and would swing between full engagement and complete apathy.

It's also stated that second-gen (and possibly third-gen) parahumans who trigger tend to do so on events that aren't nearly as psyche-rending as first-gen.

On top of that, Panacea is a second-gen parahuman herself. So it's not as if she's just a "normal" who got adopted and suddenly pulled a superpower out of someplace dark and poopy-smelling.
12:29:57 AM Apr 30th 2013

Sorry to ruin your nicely constructed post, but you missed the part where Legend is discussing about adopting a child and IIRC Alexandria points out that adopoted children have the same probability as natural ones to trigger.
09:31:47 AM May 12th 2013
Okay, I reread and figure I completely lost myself in the construction of the argument.

The issue with quoting "genetics" is that it's incorrect. While genetics probably has SOMETHING to do with the ability to contact a Passenger (and Cauldron is leveraging advanced medical tech to artificially establish a connection), the main determining effect in most natural parahumans tends to be psychological trauma.

08:02:47 AM Apr 22nd 2013
While I was cross-wicking the B's, I noticed this:

  • Bookends: The first part of the story ends after the Endbringer attack with Taylor alone and estranged from her Dad, the Heroes, and the Undersiders, just before Taylor lays out her plan for the future.

The text really doesn't explain where either book end is — or, at least, the other book end.
10:22:19 PM Apr 5th 2013
edited by throwaawy
so as of interlude 20, is parian a full-fledged member of the undersiders now or still only present as a neutral? in which case, her char entry should be moved over and something should be mentioned about her joining in the period just after echidna's attack / portal fight? / downfall of the prt what is this time period called? |D
04:13:40 PM Apr 6th 2013
edited by Gorkamorka
Might be better if we do not. Otherwise it's impossible to spoiler-tape over.

And it's called "fall"? As in both the season and setting things up for Taylor to became a Well-Intentioned Extremist? (Not that she's there yet )
12:53:46 AM Apr 3rd 2013
This might be a waste of time to ask.

Was wondering if my nice little speech about Chrysalis 20.5 might deserve to go in Heartwarming?

I'm loathe to bring it up, but some people seem to have liked it.
09:27:48 AM Mar 27th 2013
is there a clear contender for an Ensemble Darkhorse? i know lisa is fairly popular, but iirc i've also seen lots of love for bitch and weld too
09:10:00 PM Mar 27th 2013
I don't think Lisa counts as she is a main character and was always pretty popular. Bitch and Weld might work, as I don't think wildbow expected them to be so well loved. You have to mention why they are popular though. For Weld its because he is the most overtly honest/heroic character yet seen in the crapsack world that is the wormverse. For Bitch I'm not sure why she is so well liked for others. I like her because she is refreshingly blunt about things, makes a great straight man, and I enjoyed how she has grown as person thanks to Taylor's friendship.
01:57:03 AM Mar 28th 2013
IMO the only one that really qualify is Vista. She gets almost no screentime, since her interlude a lot of people cheer for her, and when Echidna got her there was multiple people asking what happened to her in every single chapter.

Another example, but not played straight, is Faultline's crew. IIRC a lot of people were asking for them to came back.
09:24:17 PM Mar 26th 2013
Victor -> Power Parasite ?

He isn't. He doesn't steal powers, only knowledge/skills.

He couldn't take Taylor's ability, but he could take her running experience. He couldn't take Grue's darkness, but he could take a measure of his fighting ability.
09:26:21 AM Mar 27th 2013
edited by throwaawy
Ditto Fighter then? except the skills he steals remain with him instead of going away?

i'd suggest Power Copying except the trope itself implies 'powers'... maybe the old title of Mega Manning?
02:02:14 AM Mar 28th 2013
Uh, actually Power Parasite allows for skills as well as powers. It's just that the "powers" thing is more common. And IIRC the guy heavily degrades the original's skills, so it's not Mega Manning either (like for Grue).
05:57:12 PM Mar 18th 2013
power classifications/ratings

i'm in the process of trawling the archives for any mention of power classes for the various chars. while i do that i'm slapping on powers that *seem* to me to be appropriate on the char page. please doublecheck my efforts and make any corrections

and while we're on the topic, where would 'telekinesis' fall under?
07:39:08 PM Mar 18th 2013
Skidmark is categorized as a Shaker 2, but I could see some kinds of telekinesis having Blaster categorization as well — and Parian is categorized as a Master.
02:07:28 AM Mar 19th 2013
edited by Gorkamorka
Powers in Worm are not classified per source (like, say, in the Wheateley universe), but per effect. Taking it to rpg systems, hoping you're familiar with it, it wuould be the difference between D&D and the Hero system.

So telekinesis is not a classification in itself, what the guy with the telekinesis does with it mades it into the classification.

e.g.: if he blasts people from afar he's a blaster, if he makes himself super strong he's a striker, if he makes himself invulnerable he's a brute, if he flies he's a mover and so on.
12:25:41 PM Mar 20th 2013
You might look in Whatever Mancy. Might be just what you're looking for with the narrower applications of powers.
01:19:31 PM Mar 20th 2013
edited by throwaawy
i wonder if we could use a combination of the two as an actual trope.

  • Whatever Mancy - Some Powers in Worm fall under this, but their applications are as varied as the individual who wield them and are categorized as such.
    • Two capes might each have telekinesis. If one uses it to pick up parts of their environment and kludge it together into a golem they'd be a Master. If the other uses it to effectively pick up and throw themself around, they'd be a Mover.

...or whatever examples might make it more clear

edit: eh, no complaints, i'm putting it in
02:29:53 PM Mar 18th 2013
edited by Gorkamorka
For the whole "villains not killing families" is't an aversion and a deconstruction of The Masquerade Will Kill Your Dating Life IMO. (yeah, it's u used for secret identities too, not only an actual masquerade) Thou Shalt Not Kill is way broader, but of course fits too.

A very small subset of the cast is Technical Pacifist too btw, with an ever smaller subset being Actual Pacifist (off the top of my head, I can name only Sundancer. Skitter seems too far gone down the slippery slope).
11:10:30 PM Mar 20th 2013
11:22:03 PM Mar 20th 2013
Ooh, I got another one that could do it. Maybe. Got the idea from Legion of Nothing.

Enforced Cold War might be able to work as far as escalating the conflict. Some higher power is involved to prevent the conflict from escalating, with the page itself using the Cold War as an example where the higher power was the fear of mutually assured destruction. Usually that means you can't attack the person directly, but it might work as far as bringing family into things. In this case, attacking a hero or villain's family is likely to lead to pretty bad consequences involving the Birdcage, escalation against heroes, or problems with the Truce.

12:55:40 AM Mar 21st 2013
i like the second one. evil has standards seems overused
05:06:02 PM Mar 21st 2013
BTW, I've looked up the Whateley Universe page (they have a similar "no involving family" rule), and they go with Even Evil Has Loved Ones
12:33:08 PM Mar 17th 2013
edited by Gorkamorka
Umh... I'm trying to work out how to write something on the main page, but it always comes out as homophobic bashing. Help!

Thing is, the relationships between major characters we'be been shown "on screen" so far. (except for the TaylorxLisa and TaylorxRachel ofc)
  • Skitter and Grue: works somewhat
  • Dragon and Armsmaster: works somewhat, with less sex
  • Gallant and Vista: since he was an empath but not a lolicon he managed to say "no" in a way tat did not hurt her. repeatedly.
  • Gallant and Glory Girl: worked somewhat
  • Flechette and Parian: she is miserable because she's afraid of coming out and ruin the friendship, and it's affecting her personally and professionally
  • Panacea and Glory Girl: it's a very good reason to stay in the fucking closet and throw away the key

so... notice a trend?

I do get that Wildbow is not an homophobe, she does not writ as such, and apparently Legend has a stable relationship (offscreen). But her inability to write romantic stuff is leading to Unfortunate Implications.

Any idea how in hell to phrase all of the above in the tropes page? Or even the YMMV page?
11:37:59 AM Mar 18th 2013
Wait, Dragon and Armsmaster have less sex?

In your position, I would probably put something like:

* UnfortunateImplications: There seem to be only three kinds of relationships we see playing out on-camera: heterosexual relationships that are working out well (Skitter and Grue, Dragon and Armsmaster, Gallant and Glory Girl -- even Night and Fog and Victor and Othala), one-sided heterosexual relationships which are disentangled gracefully (Vista and Gallant, Panacea and Gallant), or one-sided ''homosexual'' relationships that work out very badly indeed (Flechette in misery pining for Parian, Panacea warping Glory Girl body and mind).

but I honestly don't see it. Even leaving aside Danny and Annette Rose Hebert and leaving aside Kayden and Max Anders (and Triumph and Prism, for that matter), Legend and Arthur are obviously heartwarmingly sweet together, and all of this is a sample of less than a dozen relationships out of over a hundred characters, ninety percent of whom are severely damaged. And all of which is taking place in a town which has been a haven for homophobic white supremacists for decades.
11:39:20 AM Mar 18th 2013
Oh, and it belongs on YMMV. Unfortunate Implications is a YMMV trope, and what you're pointing out is an example of it.
02:10:32 PM Mar 18th 2013
Yep, they have less sex :) she did not build everything yet, IIRC it's even mentioned in their interlude. I'm actually wondering if she can build herself all the relevant bits before Armsmaster ends up swapping out his relevant bits for some cybernetic enhancement that shoots laser blasts or something :P

For the trope itself: I know it's not intentional, but as you see Legend is the only one well off, and it's offscreen... dunno, I guess I'm over-thinking it. I do get peeved by the weirdest things sometimes, maybe that's one of them.

I'll shelve it for now. Maybe Parian and Flechette got together in the Time Skip, you never know :)
02:21:19 PM Mar 18th 2013
Now I feel like I've talked you out of expressing your honest feelings. :/

And I hope Flechette is at least staying in touch. There's still a loose end with the armband to be resolved.
04:48:05 PM Mar 18th 2013
Nah, don't worry Robin Zimm, the page is for tropes and they have to be written clearly. Goes double for inflammable subjects.

Besides I did express my honest feelings in the discussion ;)
11:32:57 AM Mar 16th 2013
aehm... from Promoted Fanboy page:

" ... sometimes the exact show—that they're a fan of. This can range from the minor, such as a Contest Winner Cameo, to the point where the fan has creative control and is Running the Asylum. "

Posting here first to avoid an editwar, the edit in question is:

  • Promoted Fanboy: The posters in Interlude 19 (Donation Bonus #2) (which consist mostly of a slice of an In-Universe web forum), are thinly disguised versions of regular posters in the comments section of the serial. And depending on how much part of the medium itself you consider comments, and how much meta recursion you can take before your brain hurts, they could be considered Ascended Fanboys as well.

comments? I think it's the right trope for a number of reasons, but I'd be cool with Contest Winner Cameo too, even if there was not an official contest.
01:12:42 PM Mar 16th 2013
It seems to fit with me. All of the regular posters got a shout out. I can't seem to identify which one is psycho gecko though.
01:44:26 PM Mar 16th 2013
edited by Gorkamorka
I posted because it got deleted for incorrectness. I usually go to discussion and wait for a few opinions before re-adding.

BTW, I thought Whackograve was PG, he's mentioned in the post about confirmed true/untrue brockton bay residents by white fairy. I wasn't able to identify almost anyone, except him, Hg (dead giveaway, (s)he got the same tagline too), Sveta and Charlotte. Yeah, I kinda suck at this :D

edit: to be more specific, psycho->whacko and psychopomp->grave, so his alt account is psychopsycho bu hey... it kinda fits :D
09:41:39 PM Mar 16th 2013
edited by PsychoGecko
According to Wildbow, I wasn't in the forums, not even as Procto the Unfortunate Tinker. A different alias that would have worked is Axolotl Xolotl.

Ascended Fanboy may not work except for Greg, depending on how the story goes. I almost suggested Charlotte, but there's no indication she was a fan of it all before being dragged into a life of horrendous supervillainy (feeding kids with great evil!)

I think we have to go with Promoted Fanboy for the forum stuff though. Just no contest for the Contest Winner Cameo
02:44:51 AM Mar 17th 2013
Ok, I'll re-add it then.

In-Universe the most egregious example would be Genesis, but Taylor was somewhat a cape follower too IIRC.
06:42:08 AM Mar 17th 2013
You forgot WagTheDog, who managed to wangle himself a minion spot with Bitch.

Anyway, I deleted "Promoted Fanboy" for two reasons:

First, I interpret the trope as involving fans having some degree of physical involvement — which could be as little as being an extra in the background of one scene of the film or as much as writing the film. None of us fans had that, as clearly demonstrated by the fact that Psycho Gecko wasn't represented. Instead, we were the subjects of Shout Outs ... as per Tuckerization, a trope which is present right now on the Characters page under "Parahumans Online" (although it might belong on the main page, now that you mention).

That being my second point: our cameos are already included under Tuckerization, and that is the better fit tropewise.
11:52:04 AM Mar 17th 2013
edited by Gorkamorka
I'm not really sure, the whole point in tuckerization is a generic shoutout. Promoted Fanboy instead is specifically a fanboy who gets some measure of recognition in the work. IIRC it's the sister trope made in contrast to Ascended Fanboy (which remains In-Universe).

Point being, the only other trope that fits is Contest Winner Cameo , but that fits worse because, well, contest :P

And I left it on the main page because 1- I don't want to get into an edit war encroaching your addition 2- since it's mainly throwaway minor characters I liked it better as a generic.
06:02:49 PM Mar 17th 2013
I don't think both of them should be included. If there is a consensus here that Promoted Fanboy is a better fit, I'll concede defeat, though.
09:00:04 PM Mar 2nd 2013
Just to throw out another headache, how well are the various trope pages linked to Worm? It's a way that helps the readership, even if it's one hell of a thing to check.
03:57:12 PM Mar 4th 2013
fyi, if you click on "related" (the bottom right button at the top of the main page) you get a listing of which pages links to an article. Comes in really handy to check the wicks.
01:05:04 PM Feb 19th 2013
Okay, so I was just rereading 12.7, and I noticed this bit:

Mannequin turned his attention to his arm, and I set my swarm on it. A thousand threads of silk, each held by as many flying insects as I could grip it with, all carrying the arm aloft. I brought it up to the ceiling, and began fixing it in place, building a cocoon around it. My enemy turned his attention to me, his shoulders facing me square-on. As he no longer had a head, I found his body language doubly hard to read. Had I irritated him, doing that?

He stepped forward, as if to lunge, and the silk that wreathed him hampered his full range of movement. His leg didn’t move as far as he intended, and his missing arm displaced his sense of balance. He collapsed.

“Want to keep going?” I asked his fallen form, my heart in my throat. I stood ready to jump and react at a moment’s notice.

Slowly, he pulled himself to his feet again. Twice, he used the knife to slash at the silk. On the second attempt, I hit him with the formation of bugs for an eighth sweep of the silk net, hoping to throw him off-balance enough that he’d stab himself. No such luck.

Standing straight, Mannequin shifted his grip on his knife and then raised one finger. Wagged it left and right, that same gesture of disapproval, condemnation.

Then he turned to leave, striding for the door. I didn’t try to stop him. I didn’t have it in me.

So: Taylor's line. Definitely a One-Liner. Bond One-Liner, do you think, or something else?
01:49:43 PM Feb 19th 2013
A deconstruction of a One-Liner I'd say. She seems cool and composed, thanks in part to The Faceless costume, but inside she's anything but. Good catch on that one.

Tropewise, the Bond One-Liner is something you say just after you kill someone btw, so the part when she kills Coil does not count either, but it's a Pre-Mortem One-Liner.

That said, we should really put much of that stuff in the quotes section ya know, it's much more cool over there :) besides between Regent and Imp we have some really nice quotes.
03:10:56 PM Feb 19th 2013
Ooh, another One-Liner: when she's on the balcony with Armsmaster, she Ironic Echoes.

Perhaps I should give her a bullet on the Characters page.
05:24:26 PM Feb 17th 2013
Not intending to be completely self-serving. I was just wondering if there's anything to the idea of making notes in WMG and Funny about the comments section of the website. As far as the Funny entry, I was just considering saying something about how it can also become this in contrast to the dark story.

Aside from selfish reasons, I feel the comments can build community at times.
09:55:36 PM Feb 17th 2013
Hmmm, that is a good question actually. I never read the comments during my first readthrough but found your comments and others very funny so I reread the story with the comments and enjoyed it. But this is page about the Worm story, not the fanbase. Should we include maybe a meta moment of funny? Might be useful to take a quick poll to see if it is okay. My vision would be something like this: On a meta note, worm's fanbase can be a little "interesting" at times with comments ranging from amusing to hilarious.
02:54:27 PM Feb 18th 2013
Yeah, my main objection to it is that it wasn't the author's work or even some accepted fanfic.
04:05:03 PM Feb 18th 2013
edited by Gorkamorka
Usually you can and should add in stuff like what you propose. It's a web serial after all, and the comments and the community around it are part of it.

If the thing becomes too big we just have to rework the Web Original/Worm page or something like that.

Besides having part of the community writing an analysis on itself lets us have Word of God on possible tropes. For example, say: What Do You Mean, It Wasn't Made on Drugs? on some of the more... ah... colorful comments? (any reference to any actual tropernote  is purely coincidental of course)
01:03:30 PM Feb 19th 2013
This is just my first instinct, but how about separate sections on each page for tropes, Funny Moments, etc. in the comments?
02:26:41 PM Feb 19th 2013
That would work, and it would be easier to move the whole thing on another subsection if it becomes too unwieldy.

Thanks for getting volunteered RobinZimm ;D
03:07:27 PM Feb 19th 2013
Unfortunately, I haven't been reading the comments.

...wait a second — is there a trope for those comedic "next episode preview" things with the deceptive cutting and so forth that some anime do? Does that fit?
04:12:15 PM Feb 19th 2013
for the previews, either Never Trust a Trailer or the (less appropriate because of thecnicalities) Bait-and-Switch Credits.

But dear RobinZimm, you should really go read them! Here, take this and enjoy! :)
04:31:50 PM Feb 23rd 2013
Go ahead, read the comments. On top of some people's accurate predictions and a mess of WMG, they also might make you laugh. They can especially help in some of the darker parts of the story.

As for the Preview thing, check Arrested Development's page for that kind of thing. They used to have "preview" scenes at the end of the episode that never occurred in the next episode, but were canon anyway.

Incidentally, I now have a whole new idea for funny comments. And yes, I appreciated those of mine that have been added. It's probably best if I don't add any of mine myself.

02:34:25 PM Feb 25th 2013
Well, it's not like we don't want you to PG. Even if you can spell "eviscerate" but not "heroically".

But yeah, you have the context of your own head to find something funny that everyone else lacking it would maybe not. How about you link some stuff and let the Wiki Magic decide? Anything short or short-eable works better, bonus points for any back and forth between various people.

OOC (and definitelt OT), is any kind of registration or actual email address required to post on worm's comment section? So far I avoided because the only constructive thing I had to say proved out to be almost true and thus spoilery (I guessed the travelers were a group of people playing D&D together about right after Noelle was introduced on webcam), but I wanted to try and ask Wildbow for something specific. Since the unfolding of the story is so fluid maybe she can take the suggestion and actually implement it.

12:18:22 AM Feb 26th 2013
Unfortunately, there is no edit button on comments. My typos live forever. Unless you mean on here, in which case I'm just embarrassed. Probably spelled embarrassed wrong, in fact.

Nope, no registration required. I think it requires an email address, but only Wildbow would see it.

As for the context of my own head, I had an awesome time on that interlude where the Nine attacked the nursery. I just feel a little bad about imposing on Worm's T Vtropes page. I like it a lot too, but I'd rather let other people put me here (or over on the character pages...RIP Psycho Gecko entry) than engage in something that seems so egotistical and self-serving.
03:02:45 AM Feb 15th 2013
I'm not really sure some of the tropes listed are appropriate and/or correctly defined. Anyone has any comment on those?

04:09:37 AM Feb 15th 2013
05:20:13 PM Feb 17th 2013
edited by PsychoGecko
I think Panacea, Triumph, and possibly Flechette show some Character Development as well.
09:42:33 PM Feb 17th 2013
I concede that I didn't really think through adding hates being touched and knight of Cerebus, and you make good points for removing them. But Alexandria is part of an organization that kidnaps people with a few personally kidnapped by her, removes their identities/memories of friends and families, treats them like animals, experiments on them, tortures them, gives them a good case of body horror, takes away the freewill of a few by brainwashing them to act as enforcers, and drops them off when they aren't useful anymore. This isn't even getting into creating villains, or wanting to let members of the 9 survive. Greater good my ass, she is evil/hypocritical bitch by letting this go on while still claiming to be a "hero". I think Character Development does fit because many of the minor characters are also changing but we just don't see it because they are minor characters. Look at how different the Wards are in the therapist's interlude to show what I mean.
07:19:00 AM Feb 18th 2013
edited by Gorkamorka
On the Character Development side: ok, this is somewhat difficult to convey, thanks mainly to Wildbow's writing prowess: most of the cast is absolutely monodimensional, but you do not really notice it. Mind you, it's ok to have such people in your work, as they're the basis of Characters as Device. The point it: to actually have Character Development, the character itself must be, at least somewhat, rounded out. Yes, the interludes seem to provide a small measure of that, but what they actually do is to hide the fact that the characters are devices. Personally I find this absolutely awesome and extremely well done, and it's one of the main reason I really like her work. However it has the side effect of meta-analysis obfuscation, and that's what we're doing here.

tl;dr = Imp is fucking with your perceptions of the story too :P

For Alexandria: IMO she's still at level III (or maybe IV depending on the reading) of the Sliding Scale Of Anti Heroes, while her actions are questionable she genuinely seem to care, so she cannot really be a Knight Templar or a Well-Intentioned Extremist.

(edit: to put things into perspective you can compare her to another "hero" who's one step further on the sliding scale, but still manages to be at least somewhat heroic: Spawn )
02:58:25 PM Feb 18th 2013
Either way, we have a new meme. Imp is messing with the story.

And if so many changing Worm characters are monodimensional, we're going to need more dimensions before that to account for less well done examples.
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