Discussion Literature / TheSalvationWar

He emailed the author and stated that this was his intention

However, I can't find a post by the author on either forum that details this. Did he say so elsewhere?

It was in the SDN thread which went in to considerable details over what had happened and included some comments from the hacker himself sho claimed he didn't understand why it was being treated so seriously. Unfortunately, the whole lot was deleted by a particularly obnoxious and fascistic moderator.

The policy of deletion appears to only be in place for serious rules violations. Whenever the torrent discussion comes up it is removed from the thread and placed in the Shame subforum. Once my registration came through I checked the Shame forum for any reference to these bizarre ulterior motives, and they are not there.

There's nothing bizarre about it. The pirate emailed the author and stated specifically and explicitly that his objective was to prevent publication since the work 'offended his religion".

Do not bring disputes from other boards here.

Also, the Ukrainian did not "cross-post them" he torrented them. However, the fact remains that the emails sent to the author stated that the Ukrainian in question had torrented the stories because they "offended his religion" - the guy in question later tried to retract it by claiming it was a joke after it was pointed out the comment had put him in a compromised legal position. (In fairness, it is quite possible that he was joking; the reason why this whole affair escalated was that he refused to take the issue seriously. It is also quite possible that the author took the worst possible interpretation of the Ukrainian's comments as a reaction to the latter's light-hearted refusal to acknowledge the seriousness of what he had done.) Taking his statements at face value, attempting to screw something up because it "offends his religion" is the act of a fundamentalist and that puts the author's claim was a reasonable assumption from the facts then apparent. He also emailed the author direct from his home address and used his real name, thus providing a direct link back to him.

The fact that the stories were publicaly accessible is meaningless; they were still copyright and publishing them elsewhere without permission is still piracy. Just because something is made available free of charge does not put it in the public domain. The author had every right to be angered by his conduct, especially since the chance of publishing the story through regular channels was screwed up. Despite having his work stolen and published by a pirate, the author's reaction was an entirely reasonable statement that if the opportunity for legal remedies presented itself, he would take it (while admitting they probably would not) and he would not write the planned third part due to the lack of a financial future for it, instead concentrating on works that would generate a financial return. It would be possible to publish them via self-publishing still but that would require significant investment. Since the return on that investment would be questionable, it isn't going to happen. Instead, the story was re-posted elsewhere so that those who enjoyed it could continue to read it

Actually this could be better defined as "did the research but the material found was misleading to a non-expert" rather than "did not do the research". Mea Culpa.

Not to mention deliberately dishonest.

The last time I checked the Fan Dumb page, there was nothing about not putting it on a works page. Needlessly inflammatory? Have you even seen the invasion? It was a horrible train-wreck, featuring a parade of manic's trying to (metaphorically) shout down the guy critiquing TSW (who, incidentally, is a former Marine). There were about thirty seven comments by the supporters, most of them by the same four or five people.

Oh and "deliberately dishonest?" It is utterly hilarious how you immediately assume that a simple mistake was done intentionally. If this is how TSW fans behave, then I am glad that I stopped reading it.

Oy, stop getting all hot and bothered you three. Zaptech, flipping on capslock doesn't really help. Like it says above the edit reason box, "Please be cool when you edit. Rudeness is not cool." Capslocking is rude.

Salmon, what's with that dig and assuming someones intentions?

Krisnack, yes, Fan Dumb has a banner saying not to put it on main pages now; it's good form to double check a trope page before adding it to a work. If you want to put the effort into making a YMMV page for the work, you can put it there. And you entry was inflammatory and poorly written- among other things, 4 or 5 people writing 30 or so comments doesn't constitute an invasion by any stretch of the imagination, and you put it in terms that were poorly explained and guaranteed to provoke a negative reaction (like wikilinking What An Idiot).

Now all y'all have a good December and keep your hackles down.

Oy, stop getting all hot and bothered you three. Zaptech, flipping on capslock doesn't really help. Like it says above the edit reason box, "Please be cool when you edit. Rudeness is not cool." Capslocking is rude.

Salmon, what's with that dig and assuming someones intentions?

Krisnack, yes, Fan Dumb has a banner saying not to put it on main pages now; it's good form to double check a trope page before adding it to a work. If you want to put the effort into making a YMMV page for the work, you can put it there. And you entry was inflammatory and poorly written- among other things, 4 or 5 people writing 30 or so comments doesn't constitute an invasion by any stretch of the imagination, and you put it in terms that were poorly explained and guaranteed to provoke a negative reaction (like wikilinking What An Idiot).

Now all y'all have a good December and keep your hackles down.

Salmon, what's with that dig and assuming someones intentions?

I would say his own post proves the point. His so-called invasion turns out to be a handful of people who went over to the site in question and disputed the points being made. By his own admission, Krisnack is completely misrepresenting what happened and is thus being deliberately dishonest. He also claims his post was a "simple mistake" yet he had put it in once before and it had been deleted then for the same reasons as are quoted now. By the way, the author of the site in question claims - repeat claims - to be a former Marine. The web is full of anonymous people making that claim. Just for the record, I took no part in the so-called invasion; my interest here is purely in preserving the integrity of this site.

What kind of person thinks being compared to a twilight fan is a compliment?

One who tries to avoid conflict, something you seem hell bent on instigating. Let it go.

One who tries to avoid conflict, something you seem hell bent on instigating. Let it go.

From Westrim: let it go applies to ALL sides of this, erm, discussion. If you simply can't, then Take It To The Forums or take advantage of the PM system. It has no place on this page.

Fine.

Apologies for using capslock. I would have preferred to use italics, but the formatting with the edit history section is wonky and wouldn't let me use them.

Uriel was oblivious to targeting war production capabilities. He came from a society whose technology and warfighting capability doesn't recognize the need to target the warmaking facilities, and he was accustomed to using terror tactics. His methodology is perfectly in line with the technology and strategy of someone who fights primarily an army of armed infantry and living creatures. The concept of targeting industrial centers is completely alien to Uriel.

Makes sense. He could still have tried to find some warriors to kill, though. He never asked himself where they could be spending time when they weren't attacking him. He was aware that the warriors had learned how to hurt him, and couldn't be ignored like in the past. He always waited for them to come to him, and only tried to touch them in panicked defense. But most can be explained by Uriel simply being very inflexible.

Pretty much. Uriel also focused on civilian population centers because that was where armies traditionally got their support. Kill the people and the livestock, and kill the war effort, by his thinking. Also keep in mind that Uriel was following orders direct from Yahweh, who was being manipulated by Michael, and was getting intelligence and targets from Michael, who was deliberately directing Uriel to target areas where he would get shot down and killed.

Uriel pretty much was assassinated by Michael over his campaign because he kept arranged for Uriel to go charging headlong into areas which were of no value militarily and which human militaries would defend vigorously.

If you are having an argument with another troper on another board, keep it there. Don't bring it here.

Honestly, I have to agree here. The use of Small Name, Big Ego is entirely inappropriate here. If you don't like Stuart's mentality, put it on a page for the author, not on a page for a work by that author.

Discussion pages are for discussing the page about the work, not the work itself.

The entries seem to be split between Web Original and Literature with a handful in Fanfiction. I think that we should settle on one of them although which is a good question.

Well I've been moving the examples under Literature into WO, as it is a story that originated on the Web.

I'm inclined to agree. The origin point is what's important- a Webcomic doesn't become a Graphic Novel just because it's been released in hardcover.

If they'd known how to use their powers in the context of modern warfare we'd probably see lava bombardments of armies, and possibly the use of Great Tridents (capacitor lightning guns) much earlier, to great effect. But it still probably wouldn't help too much.

Lava attacks took a long time to set up and required significant invested resources; they were of primary use against static, strategic targets. Rather like strategic bombing in WW 2 in fact. The use of Great Tridents is predicated around them being invented; they use knowledge and technology that was gained during the course of the story. So neither really is applicable to armies in the field.

In fact, the daemons never get the credit they deserve for what they did achieve. During the course of the war, they managed to learn and upgrade their tactics to the point where they could chew their way through a human defense line albeit at frightful cost. They evolved a workable counter-insurgency doctrine starting from a zero base and that is achieving something that confounds most modern armies. All in all, they were catching up just fine, it's simply they didn't have the tools they needed to properly implement the ideas they were coming up with. Time just ran out on them. In Pantheocide, the daemons are learning and adapting fast in both social and military senses.

Wow. That is a lot of lawyering and missing the point. I don't feel like wasting my time trying to address all of this, so whatever- though I will note that the pun was never implied to be in the book, just in the trope description. But you need to loosen up; this isn't wikipedia.

Wow. That is a lot of lawyering and missing the point. I don't feel like wasting my time trying to address all of this, so whatever- though I will note that the pun was never implied to be in the book, just in the trope description. But you need to loosen up; this isn't wikipedia.

Or you could just cut all the natter out of the example which now presents a bloated example. I was considering editing it but thought someone might have done that for a reason.

The following line from Made of Iron pretty much slashes this trope from the demons.

This is the ability to shrug off blows that would disintegrate a human body when you technically shouldn't be able to. So Robots, Mutants, Mages, Ki using Martial Artists do not count.

The demons and angels are able to shrug off all but the most grievous of wounds due their healing factor. I won't touch the entry but it would nice to clean it up a bit.

Or we could cut all the middle man garbage and use Healing Factor a trope that perfectly describes how the Angels and Demons can stand so much damage.

OH wait look its already there lets just cut Made of Iron Entry from the work unless you have characters that better fit the trope.

I agree; I've never thought that the "Made of Iron" trope was valid. The entry in there was a compromise intended to end an incipient edit war. The page is better off without it.

Thanks for clearing it :3. I was going to let it set for a bit to give others a chance to look at the cleaning before clearing it off completely.

We don't post reviews on the main page. That's what the reviews page is for. If you've got an issue with the story, take it there or to the JBM page; the JBM page is there for a reason.

And BTW, that "haiku" you posted was really childish and has been removed. If you want to make jabs at tropers or the site that the story is posted on, either take it to the site in question or bring it up here on the discussion page. Non-discussion pages are not the place for that, and it will be deleted on sight.

All right, all right. The haiku thing was a mistake done in a moment of weakness, but I do think that the discussions surrounding this thing are a tad lopsided at best and I'm open to any suggestions on how this might be remedied. The story itself bugs me a lot less than the rather militant support it's amassed, especially on this wiki. I know the notability thing is played rather hard and fast, but a quick glimpse on some of the forums here and on star destroyer shows that a lot of the really hardcore supporters of this work spend quite a bit of time on it, (including the authour himself, who has admitted to take the time to rend those on the Bugs Me page asunder), and this is worrying. This is a controversal work by design, and to have only one side present so firmly is kind of creepy. To this wiki's credit it only really shows up on the Bugs Me page, but I still take the stance that there should be some degree of normalization enforced.

You seem to fundamentally misunderstand what this particular site is all about. It is not concerned with a balanced discussion of whether a particular work is good or bad but an examination of recurring themes that occur in various types of published works and providing examples of their use from various books, films etc. So your complaining about lack of balance is simply not relevent to the theme and content of this site.

What is kind of creepy is the obsessive determination with which you and your little friends from whygodwhy pursue what is, in the final analysis, light entertainment. This reaches an extreme with the creation of a website that is uniquely devoted to trashing the book (and, by the way, does a very bad job of it). At this point, the words "get a life" irresistably come to mind.

"I know the notability thing is played rather hard and fast, but a quick glimpse on some of the forums here and on star destroyer shows that a lot of the really hardcore supporters of this work spend quite a bit of time on it, (including the authour himself, who has admitted to take the time to rend those on the Bugs Me page asunder), and this is worrying."

So....its "worrying" that when someone asks a question about the story or points out a plot hole, that the author responds and points out the logic behind a story decision or refutes a supposed plot hole? Its worrying that fans like a story and talk about it?

Same guy here. First off, never heard of "Why God Why?". Ever. Second, not against discussions that are bettering understanding the story, but just take a good look at the boards; it's trolls vs fans with an amazing superiority complex, and it's all leading to a very cluttered, hostile piece. At the very least trim the damn thing, because it's getting ridiculous. I'm not against fans liking something and writing about something I dislike, otherwise I'd be a whole lot angrier at the Wicked page. What I am against is the page being used as a battleground between some of the less sane members of both sides.

You do know that most of the hostile of fan reaction are in response to already hostile accusations to begin with. Oh, and a many of those detractions are also made without the initial poster reading the story in the first place? Comments that generally boil down to "I don't like this because I don't like it and you suck for liking it" or "I didn't read this but I'm gonna start insulting it and start eye-rolling at you all who have" tends to piss fans off, you know. One of the now-deleted charming attempts read thusly:

• Not that there's much of a story, anyway.

Then there's all the attepmts to put up some sort of "clever MST-ing" cancerman link which has caused a Flame War before not because it raises legitimate points, but just thrashes both it and the fans. The reception to putting that up here may not be as defensive and hostile if half of that MST-ing didn't include "Hurr Hurr Atheist Nerds Fap to This Because Their Parents Made Em Go to Church" and other such bullshit. In fact, if you are This Maletroper, didn't you try to put it back up in the first place? And you claim you're against "the page being used as a battleground between some of the less sane members of both sides" when that "clever spork" is more mean-spirited than constructive criticism.

Further, there have been attempts to cull the pages, repeatedly. Even the JBM page has been purged. A lot of the answers there are sheer Wall of Text because the page isn't designed with neat little paragraphs in mind.

Oh, and now I just read that haiku you wrote. Wow, and you accuse fans of having an amazing superiority complex and rail against trolls to look like you're being fair when you actually (1) performed at trolling yourself, (2)dismissively compared the story to Twilight, and (3)accuse fans of knee-jerking and calling anyone who criticizes the story a fundie.

It's "moments of weakness" like that that tend to start the battles you claim to despise so much.

That goes under JBM. This discussion page is for discussing the article about The Salvation War, not The Salvation War itself.

That goes under JBM. This discussion page is for discussing the article about The Salvation War, not The Salvation War itself.

Everybody wants their favorite country included. The problem is that if we included everybody, we would end up with a collection of "scenes" put in simply so each country's armed forces make an appearance and the story would lose all coherence and shape. The French are mentioned in passing as having command of Fifth Army Group, the umbrella authority for all European contingents. What we have is a selection of characters whose adventures get followed through the course of the war. As to the South American countries, their serviceable tank forces (the only ones that matter) are small. Instead, they form the backbone of the Papal Divisions that are organized from countries whose armored forces are too small to stand on their own.

I'm not sure that he was going for "where are my favorite countries" so much as "where are these large military powers?" But again, an issue for the JBM page.

I'm not sure that he was going for "where are my favorite countries" so much as "where are these large military powers?" But again, an issue for the JBM page.

I recall Turkey donating a lot of armor to the war effort in pantheocide, (more than countries like germany even) and a mention of Turkish tanks in Armagedon, but one would assume a military so close to the hellgate would play a larger role, at least in the first book.