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05:45:03 PM Jul 10th 2011
The Orphaned Series section mentions someone copying the work in order to render it unpublishable. Is there any evidence of such intentions on his part?
06:11:08 AM Jul 11th 2011
He emailed the author and stated that this was his intention
05:42:30 PM Jul 12th 2011
However, I can't find a post by the author on either forum that details this. Did he say so elsewhere?
08:38:32 AM Jul 13th 2011
It was in the SDN thread which went in to considerable details over what had happened and included some comments from the hacker himself sho claimed he didn't understand why it was being treated so seriously. Unfortunately, the whole lot was deleted by a particularly obnoxious and fascistic moderator.
03:08:49 PM Jul 13th 2011
The policy of deletion appears to only be in place for serious rules violations. Whenever the torrent discussion comes up it is removed from the thread and placed in the Shame subforum. Once my registration came through I checked the Shame forum for any reference to these bizarre ulterior motives, and they are not there.
09:22:50 AM Jul 20th 2011
There's nothing bizarre about it. The pirate emailed the author and stated specifically and explicitly that his objective was to prevent publication since the work 'offended his religion".
11:52:19 AM Jul 24th 2011
edited by Salmon
Do not bring disputes from other boards here.
02:08:43 PM Jul 24th 2011
edited by Salmon
Also, the Ukrainian did not "cross-post them" he torrented them. However, the fact remains that the emails sent to the author stated that the Ukrainian in question had torrented the stories because they "offended his religion" - the guy in question later tried to retract it by claiming it was a joke after it was pointed out the comment had put him in a compromised legal position. (In fairness, it is quite possible that he was joking; the reason why this whole affair escalated was that he refused to take the issue seriously. It is also quite possible that the author took the worst possible interpretation of the Ukrainian's comments as a reaction to the latter's light-hearted refusal to acknowledge the seriousness of what he had done.) Taking his statements at face value, attempting to screw something up because it "offends his religion" is the act of a fundamentalist and that puts the author's claim was a reasonable assumption from the facts then apparent. He also emailed the author direct from his home address and used his real name, thus providing a direct link back to him.

The fact that the stories were publicaly accessible is meaningless; they were still copyright and publishing them elsewhere without permission is still piracy. Just because something is made available free of charge does not put it in the public domain. The author had every right to be angered by his conduct, especially since the chance of publishing the story through regular channels was screwed up. Despite having his work stolen and published by a pirate, the author's reaction was an entirely reasonable statement that if the opportunity for legal remedies presented itself, he would take it (while admitting they probably would not) and he would not write the planned third part due to the lack of a financial future for it, instead concentrating on works that would generate a financial return. It would be possible to publish them via self-publishing still but that would require significant investment. Since the return on that investment would be questionable, it isn't going to happen. Instead, the story was re-posted elsewhere so that those who enjoyed it could continue to read it
10:28:19 PM Mar 17th 2011
Notice: The main page and a couple of secondary pages were recently vandalized. I've reverted the edits.
04:26:03 PM Mar 14th 2011
Just a heads up I am shifting all the red dot YMMV tropes over to the YMMV tab for this work.
03:21:20 PM Mar 2nd 2011
edited by Greenish
New entry for "Did not do the research"?

Chapter 8 of the Pantheoncide (which is as far as I've yet to read) has the scientist discuss the "mitochondrial DNA" of anthrax bacteria, but insofar as I know, only eukaryotes have mitochondria.
04:47:43 PM Mar 5th 2011
Actually this could be better defined as "did the research but the material found was misleading to a non-expert" rather than "did not do the research". Mea Culpa.
09:23:52 PM Dec 7th 2010
Axed the attempt to put the Fan Dumb entry back in. Aside from the fact that it doesn't go on a work's page, it was needlessly inflammatory. And poorly spelled.
06:06:30 AM Dec 8th 2010
Not to mention deliberately dishonest.
08:30:25 PM Dec 8th 2010
The last time I checked the Fan Dumb page, there was nothing about not putting it on a works page. Needlessly inflammatory? Have you even seen the invasion? It was a horrible train-wreck, featuring a parade of manic's trying to (metaphorically) shout down the guy critiquing TSW (who, incidentally, is a former Marine). There were about thirty seven comments by the supporters, most of them by the same four or five people.

Oh and "deliberately dishonest?" It is utterly hilarious how you immediately assume that a simple mistake was done intentionally. If this is how TSW fans behave, then I am glad that I stopped reading it.
10:20:11 PM Dec 8th 2010
edited by Westrim
Oy, stop getting all hot and bothered you three. Zaptech, flipping on capslock doesn't really help. Like it says above the edit reason box, "Please be cool when you edit. Rudeness is not cool." Capslocking is rude.

Salmon, what's with that dig and assuming someones intentions?

Krisnack, yes, Fan Dumb has a banner saying not to put it on main pages now; it's good form to double check a trope page before adding it to a work. If you want to put the effort into making a YMMV page for the work, you can put it there. And you entry was inflammatory and poorly written- among other things, 4 or 5 people writing 30 or so comments doesn't constitute an invasion by any stretch of the imagination, and you put it in terms that were poorly explained and guaranteed to provoke a negative reaction (like wikilinking What an Idiot).

Now all y'all have a good December and keep your hackles down.
06:19:59 AM Dec 9th 2010
edited by Salmon
Salmon, what's with that dig and assuming someones intentions?

I would say his own post proves the point. His so-called invasion turns out to be a handful of people who went over to the site in question and disputed the points being made. By his own admission, Krisnack is completely misrepresenting what happened and is thus being deliberately dishonest. He also claims his post was a "simple mistake" yet he had put it in once before and it had been deleted then for the same reasons as are quoted now. By the way, the author of the site in question claims - repeat claims - to be a former Marine. The web is full of anonymous people making that claim. Just for the record, I took no part in the so-called invasion; my interest here is purely in preserving the integrity of this site.
07:13:14 PM Dec 10th 2010
edited by Salmon
What kind of person thinks being compared to a twilight fan is a compliment?
08:22:06 PM Dec 10th 2010
edited by Westrim
One who tries to avoid conflict, something you seem hell bent on instigating. Let it go.
07:51:42 AM Dec 12th 2010
edited by Westrim
From Westrim: let it go applies to ALL sides of this, erm, discussion. If you simply can't, then Take It to the Forums or take advantage of the PM system. It has no place on this page.
08:03:29 PM Dec 12th 2010
05:01:36 PM Dec 14th 2010
Apologies for using capslock. I would have preferred to use italics, but the formatting with the edit history section is wonky and wouldn't let me use them.
01:55:31 PM Nov 22nd 2010
Maybe someone feeling inclined should add something about the waste of Uriel. I don't remember what tropes apply to using superpowers poorly, but Uriel going after civilians is certainly it. Even without Michael's treachery, Uriel seemed oblivious to the idea of taking out anything important to the war effort. Belial at least tried.
10:53:53 PM Nov 22nd 2010
Uriel was oblivious to targeting war production capabilities. He came from a society whose technology and warfighting capability doesn't recognize the need to target the warmaking facilities, and he was accustomed to using terror tactics. His methodology is perfectly in line with the technology and strategy of someone who fights primarily an army of armed infantry and living creatures. The concept of targeting industrial centers is completely alien to Uriel.
02:39:47 PM Nov 25th 2010
edited by
Makes sense. He could still have tried to find some warriors to kill, though. He never asked himself where they could be spending time when they weren't attacking him. He was aware that the warriors had learned how to hurt him, and couldn't be ignored like in the past. He always waited for them to come to him, and only tried to touch them in panicked defense. But most can be explained by Uriel simply being very inflexible.
05:34:53 PM Nov 26th 2010
Pretty much. Uriel also focused on civilian population centers because that was where armies traditionally got their support. Kill the people and the livestock, and kill the war effort, by his thinking. Also keep in mind that Uriel was following orders direct from Yahweh, who was being manipulated by Michael, and was getting intelligence and targets from Michael, who was deliberately directing Uriel to target areas where he would get shot down and killed.

Uriel pretty much was assassinated by Michael over his campaign because he kept arranged for Uriel to go charging headlong into areas which were of no value militarily and which human militaries would defend vigorously.
07:14:45 PM Jul 29th 2010
edited by
Don't bring disputes from other boards here,
03:41:18 PM Jul 30th 2010
edited by
If you are having an argument with another troper on another board, keep it there. Don't bring it here.
07:09:57 PM Sep 26th 2010
Honestly, I have to agree here. The use of Small Name, Big Ego is entirely inappropriate here. If you don't like Stuart's mentality, put it on a page for the author, not on a page for a work by that author.
10:43:32 AM Sep 29th 2010
edited by Westrim
Discussion pages are for discussing the page about the work, not the work itself.
08:51:14 AM Jul 27th 2010
So TSW is going to be published as a book. This makes for a strange question: once printing begins, should it be moved to "Literature" or remain in "Web Original" in examples lists on other pages?
07:13:26 AM Jul 30th 2010
The entries seem to be split between Web Original and Literature with a handful in Fanfiction. I think that we should settle on one of them although which is a good question.
10:39:15 AM Aug 5th 2010
Well I've been moving the examples under Literature into WO, as it is a story that originated on the Web.
01:06:50 PM Aug 5th 2010
I'm inclined to agree. The origin point is what's important- a Webcomic doesn't become a Graphic Novel just because it's been released in hardcover.
08:22:03 PM Jun 17th 2010
edited by TuefelHundenIV
Ok I have noticed some of the examples are very bloated and contain unnecessary info. Anyone up for cleaning up the bloated entries before I dive in my self?

After some reading most of it was ok. Needed some cleaning up a in few spots already done so disregard for now.
06:25:49 AM May 10th 2010
edited by
With reference to the Made of Iron with the associated Incredibly Lame Pun entry,it was stated that the debate in reasons for edit was focusing too much on the letter, not the spirit. A quick perusal of the examples on Made Of Iron makes it clear that the definition has shifted. Plus, the demons are specifically stated to be heavily G Med humans. And that is the strictest definition of pun I have ever seen someone try to enforce.

Rather than keep on deleting/re-entering, I've rephrased the entry to reflect the comments and provide a rationale that explains both sides of this. I think this makes a good compromise that we can both live with.

On the pun bit, I'm sorry, but this is quite simply not correct. A pun is a deliberate play on words by the author with humorous intent. That's the standard definition, not a strict one. In fact it's one of the looser definitions; true punsters would eliminate puns that are created by spoonerisms etc. In this case, Iron and ironic just happen to be similar words. They were not created by the author (the connection appears nowhere in the original story), it is not a deliberate play on words (the use of the two words is purely happenstance and does not appear in the novel)and was not made with humorous intent. So, this particular use cannot possibly be defined as a pun. Had the following exchange appeared in the novel:

Abigor: "Belial defied the traditions of millenia. Daemons shall work only with bronze and iron is forbidden to us. Yet, at Palelabor, he chose to work with iron and for this blasphemy he was killed by a weapon of iron.

Petraeus: "How ironic."

That would be the two words used in a punning context. Just because iron and ironic were used in comments on a book (rather than in the book itself) the coincidence is happenstance, it does not qualify as being a pun

There are puns in TSW:A; quite a lot of them. Early on, one example is "Britannia waives the rules" (a pun on the traditional song "Britannia rules the waves"). that would be a much better example although really strict punsters would class it as a spoonerism than a pun. I think it's a fair pun though.

01:56:29 PM May 10th 2010
Wow. That is a lot of lawyering and missing the point. I don't feel like wasting my time trying to address all of this, so whatever- though I will note that the pun was never implied to be in the book, just in the trope description. But you need to loosen up; this isn't wikipedia.
07:23:24 PM Jun 13th 2010
edited by TuefelHundenIV
Or you could just cut all the natter out of the example which now presents a bloated example. I was considering editing it but thought someone might have done that for a reason.

The following line from Made of Iron pretty much slashes this trope from the demons.

This is the ability to shrug off blows that would disintegrate a human body when you technically shouldn't be able to. So Robots, Mutants, Mages, Ki using Martial Artists do not count.

The demons and angels are able to shrug off all but the most grievous of wounds due their healing factor. I won't touch the entry but it would nice to clean it up a bit.

Or we could cut all the middle man garbage and use Healing Factor a trope that perfectly describes how the Angels and Demons can stand so much damage.

OH wait look its already there lets just cut Made of Iron Entry from the work unless you have characters that better fit the trope.
06:45:41 AM Jun 15th 2010
I agree; I've never thought that the "Made of Iron" trope was valid. The entry in there was a compromise intended to end an incipient edit war. The page is better off without it.
09:34:33 PM Jun 15th 2010
Thanks for clearing it :3. I was going to let it set for a bit to give others a chance to look at the cleaning before clearing it off completely.
04:27:59 PM Apr 29th 2010
Are some nations under or over-represented? Me, I thought there was a strange lack of the French military in the fighting. 3rd Military Budget in the world gotta count for something. The French should've been there with the USA, UK, Russia and China on the front lines. Turkey has a LOT of tanks, it was strangely absent. The lack of a South-American army group commanded by Brazil during Armaggedon??? was rather strange, though that may be due to lack of sheer industrial strength and tanks, something that would't be as bad in Pantheocide.
05:11:51 PM Apr 29th 2010
edited by Westrim
That goes under JBM. This discussion page is for discussing the article about The Salvation War, not The Salvation War itself.
06:14:39 AM Apr 30th 2010
Everybody wants their favorite country included. The problem is that if we included everybody, we would end up with a collection of "scenes" put in simply so each country's armed forces make an appearance and the story would lose all coherence and shape. The French are mentioned in passing as having command of Fifth Army Group, the umbrella authority for all European contingents. What we have is a selection of characters whose adventures get followed through the course of the war. As to the South American countries, their serviceable tank forces (the only ones that matter) are small. Instead, they form the backbone of the Papal Divisions that are organized from countries whose armored forces are too small to stand on their own.
11:47:32 AM Apr 30th 2010
edited by Westrim
I'm not sure that he was going for "where are my favorite countries" so much as "where are these large military powers?" But again, an issue for the JBM page.
12:41:26 AM May 16th 2010
edited by oksbad1
I recall Turkey donating a lot of armor to the war effort in pantheocide, (more than countries like germany even) and a mention of Turkish tanks in Armagedon, but one would assume a military so close to the hellgate would play a larger role, at least in the first book.
07:22:44 PM Apr 20th 2010
In order to cut down on some of the natter on the Just Bugs Me page, I decided to upload a good representation of the arguments against the story (it is actually a very good one, if a little contemptuous in the opening). If nothing else, it should streamline the complaints into definate points, or at least into less retarded ones.
07:28:38 AM Apr 21st 2010
edited by
We don't post reviews on the main page. That's what the reviews page is for. If you've got an issue with the story, take it there or to the JBM page; the JBM page is there for a reason.

And BTW, that "haiku" you posted was really childish and has been removed. If you want to make jabs at tropers or the site that the story is posted on, either take it to the site in question or bring it up here on the discussion page. Non-discussion pages are not the place for that, and it will be deleted on sight.
10:33:29 AM Apr 22nd 2010
All right, all right. The haiku thing was a mistake done in a moment of weakness, but I do think that the discussions surrounding this thing are a tad lopsided at best and I'm open to any suggestions on how this might be remedied. The story itself bugs me a lot less than the rather militant support it's amassed, especially on this wiki. I know the notability thing is played rather hard and fast, but a quick glimpse on some of the forums here and on star destroyer shows that a lot of the really hardcore supporters of this work spend quite a bit of time on it, (including the authour himself, who has admitted to take the time to rend those on the Bugs Me page asunder), and this is worrying. This is a controversal work by design, and to have only one side present so firmly is kind of creepy. To this wiki's credit it only really shows up on the Bugs Me page, but I still take the stance that there should be some degree of normalization enforced.
09:06:22 AM Apr 23rd 2010
You seem to fundamentally misunderstand what this particular site is all about. It is not concerned with a balanced discussion of whether a particular work is good or bad but an examination of recurring themes that occur in various types of published works and providing examples of their use from various books, films etc. So your complaining about lack of balance is simply not relevent to the theme and content of this site.

What is kind of creepy is the obsessive determination with which you and your little friends from whygodwhy pursue what is, in the final analysis, light entertainment. This reaches an extreme with the creation of a website that is uniquely devoted to trashing the book (and, by the way, does a very bad job of it). At this point, the words "get a life" irresistably come to mind.
05:00:20 PM Apr 24th 2010
"I know the notability thing is played rather hard and fast, but a quick glimpse on some of the forums here and on star destroyer shows that a lot of the really hardcore supporters of this work spend quite a bit of time on it, (including the authour himself, who has admitted to take the time to rend those on the Bugs Me page asunder), and this is worrying."

So....its "worrying" that when someone asks a question about the story or points out a plot hole, that the author responds and points out the logic behind a story decision or refutes a supposed plot hole? Its worrying that fans like a story and talk about it?
08:27:19 AM May 15th 2010
Same guy here. First off, never heard of "Why God Why?". Ever. Second, not against discussions that are bettering understanding the story, but just take a good look at the boards; it's trolls vs fans with an amazing superiority complex, and it's all leading to a very cluttered, hostile piece. At the very least trim the damn thing, because it's getting ridiculous. I'm not against fans liking something and writing about something I dislike, otherwise I'd be a whole lot angrier at the Wicked page. What I am against is the page being used as a battleground between some of the less sane members of both sides.
04:49:32 AM May 16th 2010
You do know that most of the hostile of fan reaction are in response to already hostile accusations to begin with. Oh, and a many of those detractions are also made without the initial poster reading the story in the first place? Comments that generally boil down to "I don't like this because I don't like it and you suck for liking it" or "I didn't read this but I'm gonna start insulting it and start eye-rolling at you all who have" tends to piss fans off, you know. One of the now-deleted charming attempts read thusly:

Then there's all the attepmts to put up some sort of "clever MST-ing" cancerman link which has caused a Flame War before not because it raises legitimate points, but just thrashes both it and the fans. The reception to putting that up here may not be as defensive and hostile if half of that MST-ing didn't include "Hurr Hurr Atheist Nerds Fap to This Because Their Parents Made Em Go to Church" and other such bullshit. In fact, if you are This Maletroper, didn't you try to put it back up in the first place? And you claim you're against "the page being used as a battleground between some of the less sane members of both sides" when that "clever spork" is more mean-spirited than constructive criticism.

Further, there have been attempts to cull the pages, repeatedly. Even the JBM page has been purged. A lot of the answers there are sheer Wall of Text because the page isn't designed with neat little paragraphs in mind.
04:59:11 AM May 16th 2010
Oh, and now I just read that haiku you wrote. Wow, and you accuse fans of having an amazing superiority complex and rail against trolls to look like you're being fair when you actually (1) performed at trolling yourself, (2)dismissively compared the story to Twilight, and (3)accuse fans of knee-jerking and calling anyone who criticizes the story a fundie.

It's "moments of weakness" like that that tend to start the battles you claim to despise so much.
06:58:45 AM Mar 19th 2010
  • One poster in the non-cleaned-up version of the Armageddon thread claimed that had the demons known how to use their powers in the context of modern warfare, it would have actually been a curbstomp in the other direction.
    • This claim was very quickly shot down. The brutal truth is that 'special powers" do not mean automatic victory for the possessor of those powers. The daemons were simply so outclassed that nothing they did with their (awesomly impressive by the standards of 600BC) powers was going to make any difference.
06:31:18 PM Jun 21st 2010
If they'd known how to use their powers in the context of modern warfare we'd probably see lava bombardments of armies, and possibly the use of Great Tridents (capacitor lightning guns) much earlier, to great effect. But it still probably wouldn't help too much.
07:41:01 AM Jun 23rd 2010
Lava attacks took a long time to set up and required significant invested resources; they were of primary use against static, strategic targets. Rather like strategic bombing in WW2 in fact. The use of Great Tridents is predicated around them being invented; they use knowledge and technology that was gained during the course of the story. So neither really is applicable to armies in the field.

In fact, the daemons never get the credit they deserve for what they did achieve. During the course of the war, they managed to learn and upgrade their tactics to the point where they could chew their way through a human defense line albeit at frightful cost. They evolved a workable counter-insurgency doctrine starting from a zero base and that is achieving something that confounds most modern armies. All in all, they were catching up just fine, it's simply they didn't have the tools they needed to properly implement the ideas they were coming up with. Time just ran out on them. In Pantheocide, the daemons are learning and adapting fast in both social and military senses.
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