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RedwoodElf
topic
08:22:41 PM Jul 25th 2014
OK, if wizards mess up technology, where did Harry find out about the Evil Overlord List, which is pretty much an internet thing, having started on a forum and then stayed on the internet? I don't THINK anyone published it dead tree format...
Peteman
08:26:39 PM Jul 25th 2014
Harry hangs out with people who can use the Internet. They could tell him or print it out and hand him a paper copy.
seekquaze1
topic
06:13:18 PM Mar 25th 2014
Where in the book series was it firmly established that humans alone have free will? I have read all of the books and do not recall this ever being a fact. I recall that it was stated immortal creatures rarely change or at least it takes a lot for them to change which is why their names can almost always be used to summon them. But I don't recall this ever being a hard and fast rule. The only place I have heard it mentioned is in the RPG books which are not 100% canon. Humans change more because of their shorter lives, but not necessarily because they alone are capable of it. Wouldn't Odin's own ability to willingly take and discard different mantles imply a degree of choice and capability of changing his own nature?
MrDeath
06:59:12 AM Mar 26th 2014
Uriel makes a point in The Warrior, I think, of pointing out mortals have free will; the whole thing about immortal creatures not changing is directly tied to them not having the free will to change.

And Odin taking and discarding mantles is something that happened on Halloween, one of the few times where those rules about free will and nature are thrown out the window.
MrDeath
08:03:42 AM Mar 26th 2014
edited by 160.79.180.35
Had a chance to go through the books real fast:

Mab makes particular reference to it, saying she values "freedom" because she doesn't have it. Uriel's In-Between operation is all about preserving free will, and appears to deal exclusively with humanity. In The Warrior, he and Harry have a long conversation where Uriel points out how mortals' free will makes them special and able to act.

Marcone specifically notes, in Dead Beat, his free will lets him "spit in fate's eye," directly in contrast to Gard. Bob outright says he doesn't have it: "Free will is horrible, Harry, believe me. I'm glad I don't have it."

When discussing Molly, Lash bitterly says that Molly has free will, with the clear implication that Lash and Lasciel do not. Word of Jim is that she still doesn't gain it later—just a sort of autonomy.

In their discussion in Changes, Uriel says free will—the choices Harry made—must take precedence, and he is extremely limited and cannot act to subvert those choices; i.e., he does not have free will.

In Ghost Story, Forthill's angel of death says that Free Will is something beyond her, and notes that mortals specifically have it.

I took a slow breath, thinking. Then I said, “Free will.”
She inclined her head in a micro-nod, her eyes still all but openly hostile. “Something given to you yet denied to me. I may not take any action that abrogates the choices of a mortal.”

Generally speaking, free will is only ever brought up as a subject when they're talking about people. It's a total non-issue when discussing fae, vampires, or other monsters. Becoming one or becoming servant to one is nearly always discussed in terms of losing free will.
seekquaze1
09:25:22 AM Mar 26th 2014
But there are other times it seems to contradict this. Mab is by nature cruel and merciless. She has possessed her mantle for thousands of years if not longer. Yet she showed mercy to her own daughter. Lea stated Winter is not always a heartless realm despite that being their nature. The only way the Fallen could rebel in the first place is if they had a choice about it. When I read the angel of death's comments I took it to mean angels have free will, but are forbidden from using it. Many of the supernatural creatures are duty bound one way or another combined with being so hold they tend to be set in their ways. If non-mortal creatures truly lack free will it changes the entire moral framework of the series.
MrDeath
10:16:13 AM Mar 26th 2014
Being forbidden from using free will is pretty much the same thing as not having free will. I don't see how it affects the "moral framework" of the series—it's been true from the start that creatures other than humans act within their natures.

Mab didn't really show mercy to Maeve—having her killed was a pragmatic decision.
seekquaze1
05:57:12 PM Mar 26th 2014
Being forbidden and not having it is an important distinction. If The Fallen did not have it it meant they had no choice but to rebel meaning God damned them before they were even made. That does not go well for a being that is supposed to be one of the Big Goods of the series. It may be God Himself does not have free will. If an angel obeys God because they have no choice that is not proof of goodness or anything. They have no choice. In many ways, they are only highly sophisticated automatons. Being forbidden from using it though means an angel is truly loyal to God by choosing not to excercise their free will beyond that one choice.

Mab was caught between the responsibilities of her position, the Winter nature to kill Maeve, and her maternal love. Mother Winter made it clear Mab should have outright killed Maeve herself since that is what Mother Winter would have done. Instead, Mab gave Maeve every possible chance to be saved and she was only killed as a last resort. The unwillingness to be absolutely ruthless is against the nature of Winter Queen.

And it does chance the moral framework. Monsters like the Red Court Vampires are hated and condemned because they prey on mortals. They were condmened by an angel of all things. The Fallen were cast from heaven for rebelling against God. The skinwalkers were banished because some of them chose to stay on Earth. Harry despises the Winter Fae when they prey on mortals instead of trying to find another way to live. If none of these creatures ever had a "choice" and were all condemned the moment the right set of circumstances presented itself because of their nature then how is God good? The series has presented the Christain God, good angels, and Michael as the "good guys" because of their respect of free will and the Fallen as evil for interfereing with it. But if the Fallen never had a choice but to rebel then why is it right for God to condemn them? The same with the skinwalkers and vampires. And best they are creatures that have to be destroyed for the safety of humanity, but you cannot really label them as evil or at least the same level of evil as someone like Nicodemus who had a choice. And it is easy to view God as evil is He deliberated created creatures that were going to be evil. How is it fair to condemn them?
MrDeath
07:51:45 AM Mar 28th 2014
The Fallen exercising that will was the rebellion. The series makes it clear that the more powerful something is, the less they have the agency to act in the mortal world, and Angels, fallen or otherwise, are stated to be extremely powerful, such that acting in the mortal world is inherently dangerous for the mortal world. That's why they can't use Free Will, and that's why the Fallen fell—because they wanted to use their free will, which was against the White God's decree.

Nonetheless, Mab ordered Maeve to be killed; she still acted within her nature, even if she didn't want to.

The White God is still good because the Vampires, the Fallen, the Skinwalker are not just misunderstood, they're murderous creatures fueled by murderous and evil spirits and beings. Something that wants to kill, eat, and enslave humanity is evil whether it's doing that because it chose to or because that's its nature.

And you're misunderstanding something—namely, it's never said or implied that the White God made all of those creatures the way they were. The mythology of the Dresden Files may put the White God in a powerful position, but He doesn't control everything, and He didn't create everything in the Nevernever.
seekquaze1
03:22:09 PM Mar 28th 2014
Your first part is assuming the mortal world is the only world where free will exist. The question then becomes if creatures have free will while in the Never Never. If the Fallen did have free will or wanted to use it then that means mortals were not the only beings with it. Angels have it as well. Only for most of them the only choice they get to make it to be perfectly obedient to the White God.

With Mab we are getting into a mix of nature, duty, and free will. Mab's Winter nature would be to kill Maeve for the threat she poses. Her nature as a mother would be to spare Maeve or do her best to help her. Ultimately Mab chose to do her duty and follow the winter nature of killing Maeve. Just because a person follow's their nature does not mean they do not have free will. It is Dresden's nature to help people and one he often follows. I think Mab going against her winter nature at all or trying to decide/find a compromise between two opposing natures is proof of free will.

For the last part, I know the White God did not create everything or at least up to this point it has not been revealed that He has. I was using Him because He is being played up as one of the major forces of good in the series through the Knights of the Cross, the angels, and the Church. An angel spoke through Murphy condemning the Red Court. The Fallen have been major antagonists in several books. Supporters of free will is being portrayed as one of the defining features of the novels. The good guys support the right to choose while the monsters seek to take it away. If the White God were to support the free will of mortals and deny them entrance to his heaven for choosing evil, but were to cast His own creations out of heaven for being what he made them when they did not have a choice (working under the idea that the Fallen never had free will at all) then it comes across as unjust. He created the Fallen and then condemns them for being what he intended them to be.
lightningpastry
topic
09:48:59 PM Sep 30th 2013
edited by 24.7.159.48
I'm curious about something. (And of course, the obligatory SPOILER ALERT in my question).

SPOILER ALERT SPOILER ALERT SPOILER ALERT SPOILER ALERT SPOILER ALERT

...*ahem.* Now that that's out of the way...

In Changes, Harry breaks his back and takes on the mantle of Winter Knight to get it fixed. Two things happen in short succession. 1. Harry and Mab spend some...shall we say, intimate time together. 2. Harry cuts Lloyd Slate's throat on the Stone Table.

There are two results. 1. Harry's back is fixed. 2. Harry becomes Winter Knight.

So my question is this: How intertwined are these actions? I was under the impression that the sex was just to fix his back, and the knife & stone table thing was to become Winter Knight. However, a lot of other people seem to think that the sex was to make him Winter Knight, a side effect of which is his back healing. Have I been misinterpreting which actions have which results?
MrDeath
08:00:10 AM Oct 1st 2013
The sex was ceremony. It didn't fix his back. He got the Winter Knight mantle and Mab fixed his back because he made it part of the deal, and because a Winter Knight that can't walk isn't all that great of a Winter Knight.

The sex was not a mechanical part of things so much as it was Mab asserting her dominance over Harry.
dzhellek
11:09:14 PM Apr 19th 2014
I think the stone table part was to remove the mantle from Slate and then the......almost pay-per-view event was the transfer to Harry. At least that's the impression I had. It was all a bit of a blur for Harry and, as he is the narrator, it is for us as well.
SeptimusHeap
topic
07:31:25 AM May 3rd 2013
dellyskoll
topic
01:19:38 AM Aug 20th 2012
I'm not quite sure about this, but do we still need a Recap page if each book in the series already has its own page? Plus tropes?
SeptimusHeap
09:09:20 AM Aug 20th 2012
Make the proposal here, mate.
Dante668
topic
11:20:58 AM May 3rd 2012
edited by Dante668
I've made a franchise page for The Dresden Files here and I'm working on sorting things out. I've divided up the megalist of tropes to the best of my ability (in an external file), and I'll start making individual book pages as soon as I can.
EvilSeventeen
09:09:08 AM Aug 17th 2012
I added a Cold Days page, with the promotional blurb that was on the website.
LucyZephyr
topic
10:26:01 AM Oct 22nd 2011
.... Um, what just happened? Why did TDF get moved? And did doing so kill the discussion page it used to have? :annoyed:
JBK405
10:39:18 AM Oct 22nd 2011
I believe there's a way to have the discussion page and all related links transferred to the new page, but I'm not positive how it's done. I think the person who did the move needs to ask the mods to do a transfer.
elfey
01:32:25 PM Oct 22nd 2011
Also thinking we should undo the move, or split it into sub pages since it's a multiple medium entity with comics, books and a tv show.
JBK405
01:39:27 PM Oct 22nd 2011
Actually, that's a very good point. This page, though mainly about the books, is not just about the books, and thusly probably should remain at the Main/ header as a general page for the different mediums.
LucyZephyr
09:17:57 PM Oct 22nd 2011
edited by LucyZephyr
As someone in the fandom, splitting stuff up by Literature/TV Show/Tabletop is not a great idea. Yeah, the TV show and the RPG exist, but with the exception of some core fen and some folks who caught the show on Sci-Fi, no one is going to flesh out the other pages enough to warrant this. Hell. the RPG book is actually more of a bonus book than another medium.

Please, collapse it back to The Dresden Files?
Zaptech
10:35:47 PM Oct 22nd 2011
Agreed.
JBK405
08:21:36 AM Oct 23rd 2011
Agreed, back to the Main/ header
MangaManiac
08:22:34 AM Oct 23rd 2011
edited by MangaManiac
My reasoning was that every work's being namespaced and the TV series and Tabletop Game already have their own pages.

They're here.
JBK405
08:34:24 AM Oct 23rd 2011
That's correct, but as was said this page is not just for the books, but also includes info on the comics, TV show and RPG.

When a series spans multiple media the Main/ page is often a disambiguation and general info page, and that's what this is.
MangaManiac
08:35:40 AM Oct 23rd 2011
I was thinking about making the Main/ a disambig, but apparently it's locked and deleted now.
JBK405
08:38:49 AM Oct 23rd 2011
edited by JBK405
Igore this post, it was in error
LucyZephyr
09:20:39 AM Oct 23rd 2011
Is there conversation on the forums about this happening somewhere? If so, I can't find it. 8(
Zaptech
10:54:04 AM Oct 23rd 2011
I think I've been edit-blocked for trying to move the page back to Main. (I think, because I haven't received any notification as to why I've been edit-blocked) What the hell?
MangaManiac
11:56:15 AM Oct 23rd 2011
edited by MangaManiac
Try PMing Fast Eddie about it.

He is a bit stubborn, though.
Zaptech
05:51:09 PM Oct 23rd 2011
Nevermind, its been addressed.
back to Literature/TheDresdenfiles

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