Literature Proven Guilty Discussion

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04:48:37 AM Oct 5th 2014
edited by
In regards to some of the deletions, I will respond here.

Out-Gambitted is valid. It isn't always Chessmaster v Chessmaster. The basic version is (from the trope page)

This trope specifically has three parts:

  1. Alice makes Plan A.
  2. Bob makes Plan B in response
  3. Plan A goes down in flames.

Here: 1) Detective plan a gambit to use hard and shady techniques to coerce information out of Molly. 2) Harry reveals to them she is a minor and gets them to reveal she wasn't even Mirandized, with a reporter listening in. 3) Harry ends their shady interrogation.


For Maeve under Didn't See That Coming, her plan was to get Harry to reveal an intimate raunchy exploit for her own amusement and his embaressment. He turned it against her in a way she didn't expect. It fits.

Debt Detester is the typical mindset of a fae. They will work to pay off the debt owed or even force the mortal to make them even. Lily never put any pressure on Harry to get her to pay up.
05:41:16 PM Oct 5th 2014
For both of these first conditions ... you're using a very, very loose definition of "plan," one that could refer to any character intending to do anything. It's not only "X wants to do Y." It's "X comes with a plot that brings about Y."

Take a look at a different scene. Pumpkinhead is chasing down Harry and Thomas in the borrowed van. Pumpkinhead intends to catch their car. Harry plans to freeze the ground to stop it. Pumpkinhead doesn't catch the car. Is this also Out-Gambitted? What about Rawlins planning to keep people out of the crime scene bathroom, Harry planning to get past him by agreeing not to set foot inside, and Rawlins being unable to come up with a reason Harry shouldn't look inside?

Under Out-Gambitted, the cop doesn't formulate a tricky plan that Harry must work against and then turn against him. The detective plays no role in the story before this and he'll never play any role again; he just took an action. Harry is able to shut down Greene instantly just by mentioning that Molly is a minor, and then distracts him with a reporter.

If you really stretch things you can call what Harry did an Indy Ploy, but we're talking here about an unimportant character using universally standard police intimidation tactics. If that's a plan worthy of being termed a Gambit, then the book contains dozens of them.


Again, Maeve is being petty and typical for herself. Harry turns the mild embarrassment she was trying to cause back on her by using a loophole in what she said. There's nothing to suggest there was any kind of "plan," and the event is very minor.

And Didn't See That Coming is very specific about this being a Chessmaster-style plan, very carefully plotted out, all i's dotted and all t's crossed. Nothing about Maeve asking Harry a personal question qualifies.

Even if we did count this as a gambit, figuring with no evidence from the text that Maeve had planned this entire meeting and conversation just to mildly embarrass Harry, it doesn't even fit the definition of Didn't See That Coming. Maeve was fully aware that Harry had killed Aurora. She didn't know that Harry hadn't met the criteria with another person since then. That falls under Known Unknowns, possibility #2 on Didn't See That Coming's page — which the trope definition specifically says is not an example.


The thing is, Debt Detester isn't really a trope that can be averted — it's just absent. And the trope doesn't mean what you're using it to mean.

Again, quoting the Averted Trope page: Even though There Is no Such Thing as Notability, averting is generally not an example for mentioning on a trope page, except for tropes that are so common that the list of aversions is actually shorter, such as Limited Wardrobe.

It doesn't just mean "this trope doesn't happen," even if it's a trope that you were expecting. An averted trope would be having a Romantic Comedy where the couple doesn't end up together, or a universal cliche scene is enacted with the opposite of the usual ending. A character not fitting a stereotype isn't an aversion.

Debt Detester isn't even what you're describing. It doesn't describe someone who puts pressure on others to be allowed to pay a debt. It doesn't even mean someone who hates being in debt. It means, specifically and only, a character owes a debt, then takes an uncharacteristic or out-of-character action to pay that debt off.


It's kinda not a good thing when works pages end up accumulating a lot of trope entries that "kind of fit" or "can be stretched to fit." The intention is to have an accurate wiki, and tropes are constantly getting refined and their terms getting more specific to prevent exactly this. The idea is for work pages to define works ... a long page with lots of questionable entries and as many nouns as possible potholed to broad tropes isn't a good thing.
06:42:46 PM Oct 5th 2014
Greene's plan was tricky. He was playing emotional hardball to make Molly stay against her desires, limiting what she understood about the situation and her rights, in order to squeeze as much out of her as possible. Maybe even a confession.

nothing in the trope description says the counter plan or original plan must be genius level. Greene had Molly where he wanted her and she was cracking. He had the fbi in the room for added intimidation. Harry's counter was simple but still effective and it does take down what Greene had planned spectacularly.

The trope even says this can occur between a wannabe chessmaster like a smug snake, which Greene thinks himself to be when it comes to interrogations, and a magnificent bastard, which Harry can easily qualify for many times over by this point. Heck, he conned a manipulative succubus into saving his life.

Actuually, I would qualify that as number 4 Unknown Knowns: Sometimes the plotter knows a given person, event, or variable is present... but doesn't see how it could possibly impact their foolproof plans and proceeds to dismiss it or mistreat those "irrelevant" to his plot.

Maeve did know Harry killed Aurora but she didn't anticipate he could qualify that to fit her wording in an attempt to talk about a sexual tryst.

Technically, Debt Detester does have an aversion. The trope description reads I Owe You My Life is a contrast. Which I guess in this case could read, "Lily would like to pay Harry saving her life and other requests made but the geas upon her and Fix prevents it."

And thank you for coming to this and discussing things rationally. I didn't want to start an edit war.
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