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Morven
moderator
topic
04:01:07 AM Aug 27th 2011
Now that Honor's Paradox is available to dedicated fans as an e-ARC from Baen, I'd like to start thinking & working on its tropes. However, the book is not out yet in general release, meaning that the spoiler problem is a lot worse.

Do you all (well, the 2 of you) think it would work better as a split-off scratchpad page, or in the main page and just hugely spoiler-marked-up?
Morven
moderator
09:55:05 AM Aug 29th 2011
I'm guessing, since both kjnoren and I have added Honor's Paradox spoilered entries in the main page, we'll do it that way.
Madrugada
moderator
12:02:10 PM Aug 29th 2011
I'd suggest making a subpage for it. And a very obvious note on the Main page that since all of the content of that subpage is from eARCs and the book won't be officially released until November that the whole subpage is one huge spoiler. That way, the whole entry doesn't need to be spoilered out for the next three months.
Morven
moderator
02:22:18 AM Aug 30th 2011
Then that's what I'll do. I'll move the couple of things already in here to that and start working on it in earnest.

Come the end of the year or so we can then migrate things back.
Madrugada
moderator
topic
12:37:28 PM May 17th 2011
'Nother "does this trope fit?" question: Ganth Greylord — Freudian Excuse or not? I know that personally, I found his violent hatred of everything Shanir and his conviction that love is a weakness was a whole lot more understandable by the end of Bound In Blood, after I found out what his Shanir older brother had systematically done to him.
kjnoren
09:18:38 AM May 21st 2011
Good question. It sorta fits (in the explanatory subversion sense), but I wouldn't add it due to the following.

First, it's very much backstory. Second, Ganth had lots of other issues besides his abysmal relationship with Greshan and his father (his berserker tendency, his reactions and sometimes obsession to women like Jamethiel and Rawneth). Third, you have the massacre of the Knorth women.
Madrugada
moderator
09:54:49 AM Jun 26th 2011
Freudian Excuse doesn't have to be the only reason he's like he is.

"the villain had a crapsack childhood, making them insane and warping their perception on the universe,... The villain is as horrible as ever, only now the audience can look at them in a new way ... the Freudian Excuse does not involve the character growing or changing; it explains why they haven't changed, and in fact, often serves as a signal that they could not and never will. ... A third subversion is to simply present it as an explanation rather than a full excuse. Sometimes the author simply shows what warped the character into what they became without expecting the audience to feel any more sympathetic toward the character"
Morven
moderator
04:04:39 AM Aug 27th 2011
A bit late (didn't notice this question) but I agree with Madrugada here. I don't think Freudian Excuse has to mean "Without these things, he would have been without major flaws" but rather "These things turned him into a monster, even if he would have been a deeply flawed man without them."
Madrugada
moderator
topic
04:27:07 PM May 6th 2011
The Randir Tempter at Tentir: Charm Person or Compelling Voice? or something else? I'm inclining to Charm Person — she can be resisted and there's no indication she can make a person do something that they don't already want to do, are fighting to not do, (as when she's encouraging Harn to go berserk in the Great Hall during the rope test) or are inclined to do.
kjnoren
03:49:32 AM May 13th 2011
Personally, I think Compelling Voice fits better, but the trope description is arguably too narrow. But that's a problem with the trope description.
Morven
moderator
04:06:27 AM Aug 27th 2011
Compelling Voice strikes me as a more accurate fit to the command ability of strong Shanir Highborn — e.g. Jame, Gorbel, Caldane.
kjnoren
topic
02:34:03 AM May 3rd 2011
I think the Academy of Adventure trope should be removed. The AU story is non-canon and not part of the main sequence, and Mount Alban was a single event. You can make a reasonable case for Tentir, but most of the happenings have Jame as a primary, underlying, or catalysing factor.
Madrugada
moderator
04:31:03 PM May 6th 2011
Tentir and Mount Alban are both Academies of Adventure, just in different ways. Tentir is dangerous and Mount Alban is just weird. The calmness with which the Mount Alban scholars deal with riding out the weirdingstrom indicates that it wasn't just a one time event and they're accustomed to dealing with strange goings-on.
Morven
moderator
topic
09:25:18 PM Mar 12th 2010
Should we start separating the book-by-book tropes ... well, by book? The list is a bit unwieldy, and some situation and setting tropes are only specific to one of them. Now that there are five in the series plus Blood&Ivory, what do you think?

No objections, I'll probably start on this over the weekend.
Madrugada
moderator
12:10:17 PM Apr 23rd 2011
Question on moving Evil Is Sexy to the YMMV page. Is it lampshaded or invoked — is Rawneth described as darkly seductive (or something similar)? If so, it can stay on the main page, can't it?
kjnoren
09:15:14 AM Apr 28th 2011
Did a concordance search of the e-books, and found the following quotes in T Ra R, chapter 22:

"That's Rawneth, she [Jame] thought, gulping down green nausea. Young, beautiful, and oh, so hungry. But for what?"

"She [Rawneth] had always wanted to see the Knorth quarters, especially those of the Knorth Matriarch. Would he [Ganth] show her? How her dark eyes glittered behind her mask, how red those thin lips against that white skin. Her finger-tips, long nailed, caressed his cheek and he shuddered, torn between desire and repulsion, hardly knowing which stirred him more. Show me. Please?"
kjnoren
03:01:26 PM Apr 28th 2011
As for Kallystine:

"Ah, Kallystine, so beautiful, so vicious." (Do TM, chapter 2)

"Full skirt iridescent with lizard scales; low cut bodice insecurely laced with gold; the white swell of breasts; ivory throat, fluttering mask of gold tissue, perhaps a shade more opaque than usual" (Seeker's Mask, Interim VI)

"It was strange that he [Torisen] had ever felt attracted to that gilded lady or, for that matter, that he thought of her with such aversion now. Both emotions seemed unreasonably strong, especially in that he preferred not to feel strongly about anyone: it was too much like being in their power." (Seeker's Mask)
kjnoren
11:56:35 PM May 1st 2011
As for doing a "book-by-book" separation, I did a quick check. Most tropes seems to appear in two or more books, especially now that Bi B has appeared.

Girl Genius does a straight alphabetical list, with folders, but I don't think that's a good way. I like the system in Buffy the Vampire Slayer better.

That way we can also dismantle the Characters page and fold it back to the main page.
Madrugada
moderator
04:22:45 PM May 6th 2011
I'd really prefer to keep the characters page separate. It allows for a more detailed breakdown and a more complete listing of the tropes used, especially considering how characters are introduced (bringing new tropes with them), play their part, then fade out of prominence in a later book.
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