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05:54:37 AM Jan 17th 2014
A little spoiler, given what happens at the end of Ch. 28, could it be considered an example of Poor Communication Kills?
SeptimusHeap
06:52:04 AM Jan 17th 2014
"What" could be considered an example of Poor Communication Kills?
toolbar
07:44:52 AM Jan 17th 2014
In page 11, Archer menntions showing the origin of his Alias "Sudden Death". At the end of the chapter Maou is shot by an arrow aimed to the heart. Archer probably assumed that Maou was pro-war, given that neither Hero, Lady Knight or Silver Mage has informed him about Maou actually wanting to create a long lasting peace. If Maou's (potential) death was to be traced to a human, all of her efforts would be for naught.
Mechamorph
04:21:43 PM May 12th 2014
It wasn't Archer anyways. Hero lampshades it in later chapters that while Archer definitely has the skills, he won't kill someone which epic boobs like Maou.
zetto
topic
08:50:16 PM Jan 6th 2013
that Adaptation Dye Job trope seems out of whack; rewatching the first episode, demon king/crimson scholar's curtains certainly seem to match the windows... whereas that art from the novel at the top of the page looks considerably more brown to me. I'd change it, but for once I'm erring on the side of not getting into an edit war.
burnpsy
topic
12:31:05 PM Jan 2nd 2013
edited by burnpsy
Now that we have an official license in the form of Crunchyroll, this page is probably due for a major name cleanup when the anime airs and we get the official name translations...
felixedine
topic
11:33:49 AM Mar 16th 2012
A Lot of these tropes refer to the Demon Queen as a "sorcerer" and imply she has powers, but the profile on the original site/threads says that she's weak, and only has the magical power of an average human. Should we change these tropes?
g3m1n1
topic
10:55:58 AM Jan 6th 2012
On a different topic, when did the edit button get a timer?
MrTerrorist
topic
07:56:23 PM Jan 3rd 2012
It is necessary to just call the main female character the Maou or Demon King when the Demon Queen is still fine and can be interchangeable with Maou/Demon King? You don't have to take things too literally.
Goukenimaru
05:44:07 AM Jan 4th 2012
edited by Goukenimaru
Well, TV Tropes still is a wiki, gotta keep the pages consistent and at least try to be a relieable source. The issue here is calling a character as one sees fit, Demon Queen looks good in reference, but simply put that's not the character's name.

Examples would be fine by just referencing her as "Queen" sometimes, but almost all of them were written as "Demon Queen"; and odd enough there was no "Maou" to be found, and that had to be edited.

Well, that's how I see it. It should be written as Maou to distance itself of the weird sounding Demon King and fan prefered Demon Queen; it's okay to reference her just as Queen sometimes, but the troper has to know that Maou would be the best for Demon King purists and Demon Queen supporters.

That's just for Maou, tough. I don't mind the other characters such as Onna Kishi (Female Knight) being written in different ways (Lady Knight/Woman Knight), because they are all acceptable translations of Onna Kishi, while there's no "Queen" to be found in Maou.
MrTerrorist
05:59:55 AM Jan 4th 2012
You do know that "Maou" has been used in other mangas/animes and not all of them have the same translation yet the fandom accepts how it was translated in those respective series. (eg. Kyou Kara Maou : Demon King, Shina Dark : Satan, Superior : Demon Queen).

Most of the fans that i spoke with prefer Demon Queen since it's much agreed, makes sense and recognizable (plus Demon King just sounds plain wrong to us.). However, i'm willing to compromise for Queen or Queen of the Demons to end the use of "Maou".
Goukenimaru
06:44:03 AM Jan 4th 2012
Yeah, I do know all the series and cases you pointed out, there's even Devil Lord to be found around; all in all boils down to Translation Style Choices, but we have to keep things consistent and true to the work in here.

Write "Queen" in a few examples, but Maou has to be predominant term in all related pages to Maoyuu Maou Yuusha. If one can write Maou and Queen in the same excerpt, that's even better.
g3m1n1
09:36:28 PM Jan 4th 2012
Huh. Wish I'd found this thread before I changed it back to "Demon Queen." Excuse me for a moment then.
burnpsy
12:38:59 AM Jan 5th 2012
edited by burnpsy
I'd go with Demon Queen because it's fan-preferred and an accurate translation. There's no English release to disagree with us, so yeah.

That is, unless you wanna go with "Archenemy", which it says on the logo.
Goukenimaru
03:03:10 AM Jan 5th 2012
"Fan-Preferred" yes; Accurate? No.

The "There's no English release to disagree with us, so yeah." argument invalidates you're own. There's no official english release, so this wiki page shouldn't even bother with the english names in the first place, which changes all the time depending on who is translating the various spin-offs this series has.

I suggest you people being more of a understanding person like MrTerrorist above, who got in terms with his preferred translation and the consistence issues. Maou will be the most proiminent term this wiki has; Queen or Demon Queen appearing only a in few instances.
MrTerrorist
04:21:29 AM Jan 5th 2012
Remember when i said i'll consider using "Queen" to call our main female character? Yeah, well i change my mind since i just realize it will only confuse people if we were talking about either the Demon Queen, the Fairy Queen or the Blizzard Queen (God help us if there more Queens coming for this series.).

So does that mean we just call her "Maou"? Unfortunately, if we do, it will only get confusing because i just found out from sites about the series that there are more demon Nobility characters and most of them have "Maou" in their names! Even one character is name the "Blue Demon/Devil King"! (Looks like Devil King is out.)

While it might not be the right translation and it is also preferred by the fans, i think we should just call the main female lead, the Demon Queen, to avoid confusion, and she is after all, the leader of the Demons.(A part of me would like to call her the Demon Empress but then it would only be wrong and inaccurate). Also, while TV Tropes is a wiki, we are not Wikipedia which this extract from the main page of TV Tropes explains:

We are not a stuffy encyclopedic wiki. We're a buttload more informal. We encourage breezy language and original thought. There Is no Such Thing as Notability, and no citations are needed.

Hopefully, we can all resolve this debate.
burnpsy
04:38:15 AM Jan 5th 2012
If you're going to say that the lack of an English release means that English names can't be used, then you'd better go through the entire wiki and swap out terms like king for "Ou-sama".

The Kanji for Maou read Demon and King. However, in this case, the term "king" is attached to a woman, so it gets translated as queen. It's pretty much what people mean when they say that translating Japanese is 10% science and 90% art.

Then there's what Mr Terrorist just brought up.
Goukenimaru
05:58:21 AM Jan 5th 2012
@MrTerrorist
  • I don't see an issue with the fact there are other characters that have Maou in their names, it will Noun Maou or Maou Noun. The female lead is just Maou, it is not confusing; also she has two more names to avoid the, unlikely, confusion.

@burnpsy
  • I'm not saying anything, I just made an equal rebultal to your "There's no English release to disagree with us, so yeah." argument, which in fact there is many english relases that disagree with you, just not official yet. What we have here is a series where the charcters have simple and plain titles as names, and it seems people are trying to make them glamorous or satisfying for the sake of "art"; this is just Edit Wars bait.

I'm trying to be understanding here, by just wishing for Maou to be the predominant term, using Demon King just one time for the Character Sheet, and using Queen and Demon Queen only in a few instances to please part of the fandom.

Hell, a purist would go crazy amd disregard any argument, just by pointing out the titles are names, and names just can't be translated (i.e Tsubaki can't be Camellia); purging any english equivalent for the names.
Kira0802
12:12:03 PM Jan 5th 2012
Quoting myself from AS Forums...

"In the tiny bit of translation I made, I chose to use Maou. First of all because I was too lazy to put up "Demon Queen" or "Demon Lord", but also in case there's a connotation I do not know of. For example, if you translate "Youkai" into "Monster", both word could mean the same, but have different connotations. Same thing here."

"Calling her Maou is much more simple, IMO. It's 4 letters, guys. Demon Queen has 10 and a space"
burnpsy
01:25:11 PM Jan 5th 2012
Here's an idea then.

Why not dodge the entire argument and call her Ruby-Eye, or whatever translation you want to use for her other title? A problem I have with Maou is that it looks way too similar to actual Japanese names used in several series, at least two of which I can think of at the top of my head. And in the first case I just potholed, the name is indeed intended to be Maou, but the official released changed it to Mao.
Goukenimaru
03:02:12 PM Jan 5th 2012
You mean Maō, right? This ō is to point out there's a hidden "u" in it. Maō and Maou are the same word.
burnpsy
04:20:04 PM Jan 5th 2012
You mean the series that I said changed to Mao? The series does not use a font that contains non-standard characters, so no.
MrTerrorist
10:53:12 AM Jan 6th 2012
Ok, i just had a talk with a translator who does the scanlating for one of the series mangas. In his/her opinion, leaving it untranslated as Maou is rather "weaboo"ish and unfinished. But if people want to call her "Maou", than for consistency sake, he/she insist that all of the characters have to be called by their Japanese names as well. And a final note, while both names have excellent arguments, he/she rather choose "Demon Queen" as it's a much more known name.

So how about this, i'll make a note in the T Vtrope page that Maoh might not be the correct meaning for Demon Queen but was chosen for simplicity and Translation Style Choices by the translators and fans. So this way, people know that her name was originally Maou. How about it?
Goukenimaru
11:56:10 AM Jan 6th 2012
This would spread the problem to all other characters who can have their names read in more than one way.

In response to the translator's "weabooish" comment; my issue is with consistence, I would the first to vote to bring "Maou" down if the translators and scanlators who are working on all series reached an agreement to translate in only one model. Sadly, they do not join forces; so faithful followers of all series must keep in mind that Lady Knight, Woman Knight, Female Knight and Onna Kishi are the same person.
MrTerrorist
09:29:32 AM Jan 8th 2012
edited by MrTerrorist
Here's a discussion by an AS user, the translator i mentioned before and a ten-year veteran fansubber respectively over this issue.

"''My thinking is I expect the best translation as possible but there is the fact that not everything can be, as not everything works as well in english as it does in japanese, so in that case best going with what works best in english as it's for english readers. Demon Queen is best, Demon Lord works well enough but Demon King not so much. There are times when going with "simple" is the best way and I'd say this was one of them times and the simple way here is Demon Queen.''"

"Scanlating means translating relevant Japanese into English in a way that minimizes the effort required by the reader to understand the material. In a way, like the previous poster said, simple is usually the best way, but not always."

"I've been working in the fansubbing scene for 10 years - so I've experienced discussions of this kind more than once - and for what little it's worth, I agree with your decision to go with Demon Queen 100%. Thanks for your efforts. Your translations flow very well. Addressing a female with "King" in English would be a typical case of a failed translation, because it would introduce a new and wrong connotation (the speaker negates the femininity of the one addressed) which doesn't exist in the Japanese to begin with. I can't believe that this is still even discussed here."

GoldenAlex
08:42:30 AM Mar 1st 2012
That's Demon King vs. Queen. It doesn't address Maou. Maou sounds better anyway.
Levitz9
08:22:16 PM Mar 9th 2014
The series is getting licensed in the U.S., and the title Sentai Filmworks is going for is "Archenemy and Hero". We may as well go with that, no? (The official Japanese logos also have a little text that says "Archenemy and Hero", kind of like Attack on Titan's logo.)
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