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Idisagree
topic
02:34:37 PM Apr 16th 2014
Does "Faith Mouse" count because the entry says goons from Something Awful like it and see the creator as a hero. I mean does a Troll count as a fan and do they count as support? If so we should remove it.

Also "Shredded Mouse" seems to be the new Adam Sandler Jack and Jill (in that one person likes it and claims there's support like I did in that case).
BluntTime
topic
02:15:12 PM Mar 2nd 2014
I propose Shredded Moose gets taken off the Horrible webcomics page. Yes, it started out bad and misognyistic but the authors took the criticism and changed all of the flaws that are listed on this page. I have been working on a comprehensive description of Shredded Moose on TV Tropes that objectively sums up how the work changed, with comics and first hand accounts to prove it. The main character Brew may have started out as a Mary Sue but that was only during the 2007 comics, there are many developments you missed. Including the ending in which through Monique's influence and how she saved his life, Brew finally sees women as human beings and realizes what an enourmous douchebag he was to them. He resolves to be better to all women and starts by buying Monique and her daughter tickets to Disney World.

tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Shredded Moose

Also Shredded Moose 2.0 and the penny arcade forum shennaniggans are both troll projects that originated at the shittywebcomic tumblr and they're trying to give Brew an even worse bad name than stuff like this is.

Sorantheman
03:58:21 AM Mar 4th 2014
edited by 81.230.125.91
How about some proof? Some links perhaps? Because so far I haven't seen any evidance that supports your claims about the comic improving, even in the article that you wrote. For all we know, you could be Brew himself trying to save face, considering how you're a rather new member on the site and the only thing you have done as of now is to defend Shredded Moose.

creamy-sama
08:20:51 AM Mar 26th 2014
We should let this person, B Lunt Time speak his opinion, Sorantheman. This is after all, a civil environment for discussion, not for insinuations and accusations.

Even if Blunt Time might be Brew, it would still be nice hearing his opinions and defenses. Blunt Time messaged me, asking for more info on Shredded Moose, and I'd be happy to share.

I think Blunt Time is talking about the period of time when the comic underwent the "poorly executed cerebus syndrome", or at least according to what the SBIH entry said about it.

To tell you guys the truth I only vaguely knew about this latter half of the webcomic. I mostly more familiar with the webcomic during its gag-a-day prime period in all it's vagina punching chest beating misogynistic Penny Arcade wannabe glory.

I do remember though, at least a couple comics from the latter half of the comic. One comic had Brew, surprisingly, softening up. Like it was couple of comics where he was outright refusing sex, even when offered condoms, and he had this worried look on his face. This would been workable had it not been for that date rape comic, but excluding the date rape comic, it seemed like an interesting turn in direction. Unfortunately, just like the SBIH entry stated, every other comic in between was a pin up during this weird period, which made the comic less readable. Then all of sudden, the webcomic disappeared with a hiatus message, and the web domain expired, just like that.

Again, personally I really wish that the webcomics were up online right now, just for archive purposes, not in a way the authors could profit off of them ideally, because then I could just link people to the comics that you and I are talking about. We can only reference links that reference the comic in passing.

But, seeing Blunt Time's edits to the Shredded Moose Page, including a vital piece of the comic saved paints an interesting picture. To tell the truth, a webcomic about an unlikely romantic relationship between a misogynistic fratboy and a militant feminist is actually an interesting premise. Plus, had the comic started at that point, and did it reasonably well, I would agree with him.
Creamy-Sama
topic
02:30:24 AM Feb 27th 2014
I am going to elaborate on Shredded Moose, because I for one remember it's terrible infamy, and I want to share some tidbits on why it was so offensive and aggressively unfunny. I remember quite a few strips. They scar me. There's also some updates on Brew and his current Shenanigans
SeptimusHeap
05:20:36 AM Feb 27th 2014
That doesn't look like a good argument for inclusion. You'd have to explain how it's unpopular and why.
BluntTime
11:57:35 AM Feb 27th 2014
edited by 24.188.15.232
Shredded Moose is my favorite webcomic and I'm going to defend it in this argument. I wrote a whole article about it from a neutral standpoint because I believe it is So Bad, It's Good and doesn't deserve the hatred it receives.
Creamy-Sama
03:24:29 AM Mar 6th 2014
edited by 71.223.220.206
@Septimus Heap

  • "The lowest point was "the date rape comic" where Brew commits date rape. The punchline? "Always wear protection!", says Brew, wearing football gear to defend himself against his victim who is (understandably) hitting him with a baseball bat for taking advantage of her."

Excuse moi? But how was this part of my additions not a good argument for its inclusion? This comic made light of date rape, a very real problem in where rapists get college age girls drunk and take advantage of them when they pass out. This comic has the main protagonist do that exact crime, and plays it off as some juvenile fratboy antic instead of the serious criminal offense that it is. The comic expected us to go "Ah that rascal!" when the protagonist, Brew, committed what could only be classified as an intentional act of RAPE. Keep in mind that Brew isn't supposed to be an evil protagonist, he was intended to be this "cool bro" dude that audience was supposed to root for and laugh with, and that is why especially in these kinds of instances he was such an aggressively unlikable character.

Don't get me wrong I like fanservice in anime, and I enjoy the fratire genre, Maddox especially, and it is possible to make a work with a rapist protagonist, and have it come out as a masterpiece(i.e Watchmen, A Clockwork Orange, Sengoku Rance[or so I've heard]).

However, there are lines that are drawn. If you make a work that involves something as dark as rape, you have to think maturely around the issue. Rape is serious business.

Let me break that strip down for you:
  • Strip is titled "Getting Laid 101" or "The Easy Way to Get Laid" or something aggravatingly stupid like that.
Panel 1: Brew is playing a drinking game with a woman. "Step 1! Challenge your object of desires with a friendly sport" Panel 2: Woman has passed out. Brew leers over her body, and winks to the audience, giving a double thumbs up. "Step 2! Wait till she passes out!" Panel 3: Brew is wearing a football helmet, smiling. The woman is trying to bash his skull in from offscreen. "Step 3! Remember to wear protection!"

Well there other example comics that I still remember. I just don't know how to insert them into the entry yet. Trust me though, it is the sum of these comics that brings the entire webcomic down.

  • In one strip, Brew dreams himself as a Tyranosaurus Rex, chewing on a Brontosaurus, while having sex with another random woman in bed.

  • In another strip, titled "Console Wars" Brew angrily eyes a couple(representing the PS3 and Xbox360) having a romantic walk together. For some strange reason, Brew does not like the idea of the couple being together, so he whips out a katana and slices the woman(PS3) in two. He then passes the bloody sword to Mario(representing the wii) and tell the Man(Xbox360) that "he did it!"

  • In another strip, titled "learning curve", Brew sees a man touching a heater over and over again, because he can't seem to learn that the heater is hot and therefore it burns. Brew resolves the problem by shoving the man's face into the heater shouting "IT FUCKING BURNS!!!"

  • In another strip, titled "Get the Edge" the Shredded Moose duo, Brew & Trip, don the Penny Arcade duo's trade mark outfits and blow up the world screaming "EDGY!!!" in some bizarre attempt to satirize the comic that they borrow so heavily from.

So as you can see, Brew comes off as some violent psychopath with severe issues regarding the opposite sex.

His character can in some ways be likened to Gabe, except unlike Penny Arcade's Gabe, Brew has no redeemable qualities and his short temper is completely unreasonable. Gabe was a violent crazy character for sure, but he had Tycho to call him out and put a leash on him, Gabe was always portrayed as the less mature of the duo, and most all, Gabe would never stoop down to raping an unconsious woman.
SeptimusHeap
03:28:40 AM Mar 6th 2014
That seems a better argument for inclusion, yes. I didn't know the work so I didn't see why it should be included.
BluntTime
05:43:08 PM Mar 25th 2014
@Creamy-Sama: I hate to say it but are you inventing your own Shredded Moose comics in a bizarre attempt to make the series seem immoral? I've seen the SM archive and there wasn't a comic about Brew raping an unconscious girl, yet somehow you know this comic frame by frame? Very suspicious if you ask me. "Get the Edge", "Learning Curve" and T-Rex comic are all real but I think you're trying to invent reasons why SM should be included on here. Unless you actually possess this so-called "Rape" comic I don't think you should go around making such bold accusations.

creamy-sama
09:19:23 AM Mar 26th 2014
@Blunt Time

There was a comic about Brew raping an unconscious girl. The comic was number 36 in the archives. The title was "Dating 101". The rape was not shown on screen, because it was off screen, heavily implied to have happened in between the events of panels 2 and 3.

I am not the only eye witness to this comic. Lilith Ester of John Solomon's webcomic review and trolling posse commented:

"Incidentally, rampage is a perfect word for his attitude towards sex and women. Here, our hero is seen pretending to be a T. Rex while fucking his nubile, big-titted fuckbuddy (I don't think Brew could keep a girlfriend for more than three weeks, considering his attitude to menstruation). He views himself as the predator and the woman he is fucking as nothing more than prey, to be metaphorically eaten and shat out, never to return to again. He also encourages date rape. Getting a woman drunk until she's passed out on the floor is exactly the same as spending half an hour exploring her erogenous zones, guys! Totally!"

Sauce:

https://web.archive.org/web/20071015041301/http://badwebcomics.blogspot.com/2007/09/shredded-moose.html

Please note that the term "Date Rape" in that paragraph was in blue highlights on the original page. It linked to the infamous comic number 36. "Dating 101"

Blunt Time, if you have "Dating 101" saved on your hard drive. Please, feel free to upload it to a website or someplace, where we can properly see and link to it, because it is a vital piece of evidence.

If I knew Shredded Moose was going to be completely baleeted, I would have saved every comic I could get my hands on, and then make a website dedicated to showcasing all the comics in a hall of horrors fashion, just for the sole purpose of giving this site some linkable evidence.

Don't get me wrong, I think Shredded Moose is horrible, one of the worst webcomics I have ever had the displeasure of reading, but I believe all art should be preserved to an extent, most especially due to situations like this where we know the work was bad, but we are now in need of evidence.

And, to prove that I am not biased, and that I am not some insane John Solomon worshiping conspirator that's out to get Brian Krumm and Chris Hall, I will add that there was at least one, ONE comic, that was considered universally good by everyone who read it. Number 96, "Going Postal", in where a post man makes a daring trek across rain and snow and over flaming hot lava and vicious crocodiles to deliver mail. The funny thing about the comic, beside being moderately chuckle sunday funnies worthy(it wasn't amazing, but it was good and professionally done), was that Brian Krumm, the writer, had zero involvement in this one strip, it was all the work of the artist, Chris Hall, who drew the post man from different exciting poses and angles, working to a solid punchline. This strip, while it had profanity, was devoid of the usual violence and misogyny, which I think is what also helped it gain some kudos. Since it was all the work of Chris Hall, it was because of instance like these, and alternate character interpretations, made Chris Hall and avatar, Tripp, somewhat of a woobie. Like Chris's primary skill is artwork, and yet, he can write a better comic than the actual writer. People speculated that Chris could have done a better webcomic all by himself. People saw his avatar, Tripp, as this wee kid suckered into such fratboy thinking, and that it if it wasn't for Brew/Brian and his stupid sexist anti-intellectual fratboy influence on Tripp, Tripp would be an upstanding individual and a pretty cool guy. Badwebcomicswiki, YWCISBAYSFB, and many others who read the webcomic carried the idea that Brian Krumm was the sole reason the webcomic sucked.

Now onto Brian Krummm, he's speculated to be in his late 30's since he worked in the IT industry. Not much is known about him, besides his personality online. I remember whenever he defended the comic in forums and such, he always made defenses in conspicuous ways. Like you swear he was pulling arguments out of his ass and he always seemed to cover his ass on the fly, but tried to put a phoney "coolface" on when you cold read him a mile a way and get the feeling that he was nervous and embarassed. For instance, when he was called out for the comics misogyny, he then tried to make it seem as though most of the comics were happening only in Brew's mind, and tried to turn Brew from the obvious Mary-Sue self-insert into a Strawman Parody which, would I admit have been a decent author's saving throw, if there was something in the comics that indicated that Brew was having a dream. Sadly this only happened in the comic in where Brew dreams himself as a T-rex. For all we know, Brew might have really raped that drunk girl and fed that one beach bully to a shark. Also, when he would talk, he would use "bro-speak" and try to be "all cool with college words and shit".

I think this is why Soranthe Man accused you, Blunt Time, of being Brian/Brew, because defending this comic on a site like this and trying to mend his a-bomb blast of a reputation seems like something Brian would do, he did it on the Penny Arcade forums and I think he got banned for that or something I don't know.

If you do turn out to be Brew, Blunt Time. I won't chase you off, and will tell other members not to chase you off. I'll just laugh my ass off at the peculiarities in retrospect, especially if you eventually go "Oh no! I never did a date rape comic! That never happened! It wasn't me honest!"

But again, no persecution on your behalf.

Also Brew or not, I thank you for your contributing with your edits, and also removing a false statement from the SSBIH entry considering a statement I made regarding Brian Krumms ban from the PA forums. I thought Brian was banned for that comic where set that gay couple's car on fire, because it was the last post he made before getting banned. I though the gay couple was supposed to be the Penny Arcade duo, but designed to look more like the authors in real life(For those who don't know Tycho is bald in real life). But no that couple were just some bullies. I was going to delete it and retract it myself, but since I think it was you beat me to it, I have you to thank. So thank you.

But if anyone knows the real reason Brian Krumm was banned from the PA forums, please let me and others know.

BluntTime
07:16:24 PM Mar 26th 2014
edited by 24.188.15.232
First off, google "Blended Goose" and "shitty webcomics" that will take you to tumblr that reveals all the recent "Shredded Moose 2.0" stuff, including the penny arcade forum Brew were all some elaborate trolling scheme based off of using Shredded Mooses reputation to upset people.

I am not Brian Krumm (Trip) or Chris Hall (Brew), Creamy-sama and thank you for at least being polite and going into fine detail why you believe Shredded Moose is a terrible webcomic but I don't think you have the whole picture. I dug up a whole bunch of SM comics from Something Awful's archive and it portrayed a far different comic than John Solomon or anyone else will have you believe.

http://imgur.com/a/GiuZW

I payed a lot of money on Something Awful to dig up these comics because I really liked the art contrary to what anyone said about the actual comics. Plus, I wanted to see the reputed "worst webcomic of all time" because I get a lot of ironic enjoyment out of reading bad things. What I found was a man who was misunderstood to the max.

First of all, believe it or not, Brew spent two whole years laboring on his now defunct site. From 2005-07, shreddedmoose.com was just a dream in his head and he built and programmed the whole thing himself. If you look it up on the internet archive, you can see Shredded Moose was a very slick and sophisticated site. Also read a few of his over-the-top libertarian blogs and you can tell by the semi-eloquent wording that Brew is by no means the imbecilic fratboy you portray him as.

The guy, at first, wanted to make a high quality entertainment site, blog and comic for fratboys, libertarians and gamers but did he by any means believe the stuff himself? His background seems a little intelligent for that doesn't it?

I have never seen the date rape comic honestly, or found it while I was searching the Something Awful archives. But in Brew's defense, the number one thing you mention is that you never see the actual offense taking place. Its just implied. Top it off with the main character being a dopey fratboy with a hilariously stupid grin and I don't know how anyone in their right mind ever take it seriously or condemn the entire comic because of it.

Second, who would be stupid enough to have their Mary Sue, self insert reportedly "date rape" someone and not look reprehensible. Are you sure the man wasn't aiming for satire of asshole fratboys? I'm pretty sure a guy who programmed a whole site and worked in the IT industry would know that it wouldn't be a good idea to portray himself "date raping" people. There are SEVERAL early Shredded Moose comics that portray Brew as being a drunk, misogynist, someone who's arrogant and unaware of his moronicness and so on. I can find plenty of comics where Brew is being beaten up, acting idiotically, humiliated and even getting called out for his behavior. The comic is a lot more self aware and moral than you give it credit for. Also, I have NEVER seen a comic that portrays women as bad, they always seem to be Brew's victims. Never once does the comic actually attack them as people, it never calls them evil, or bitches or manipulative. Its always Brew who is lusting after them and harassing them. And guess what, all this mistreatment of women, leads to Monique giving him a taste of his own medicine, the two end up having a hate-love relationship that ends with Brew reflecting on how Monique saved his life rather than letting him get killed, and through her love he realizes that women are human and capable of love too. Then he starts treating all the women in his life better. Brew, the evil fratboy everyone considers him realized that love was the answer rather than hate or disdain for anyone.

When criticized however for making his character a "Mary Brue", Brew began developing his characters and showing the world his character wasn't infallible. We get to see why Brew's behaves so poorly. He's a spoiled aristocrat with daddy issues, in which his dad was either cruel to him or straight up ignored him while mistreating Brew's mother. Brew saw this behavior and started to emulate his father.

Monique too is given a backstory that shows what a strong, caring mother she grew up to be in spite of it all. Witnessing her mothers rape and living as an orphan lead her to being tough and raising herself to become an actually strong, empowered female character. She despises Brew not because she's a radical feminazi but because she's worried he'll become like her mothers rapists if he keeps going down that path.

Its not Cerberus syndrome because the comic was dark, edgy and sexual to begin with. The writer however, fleshed out the otherwise two dimensional characters of Monique and Brew to make them understandable but highly flawed characters.

Trip, like you said, is also very kind and respectful to everyone, women included. He was the voice of reason in contrast to Brew's insanity and also shows that Shredded Moose was capable of having different kinds of men. Not just completely monstrous fratboys.

I could go on and on but I doubt you'll believe me. Krumm and Hall live in shame forever all because people failed to see the good in Shredded Moose. It's honestly not a one dimensional comic at all, and it provides a whole psychological study on male characters like Brew and Trip, both very real types of males in this world. Monique, on the other hand, is a feminist character done extremely well, she doesn't take shit from Brew and teaches him a lesson about respecting women not because she hates him but because she cares about him.

This comic and all of its wonderful art and themes have been completely disowned and dropped in the garbage. I am the sole inheritor of its spirit. It may have done some bad, reprehensible things but it is not a real life murderer or a rapist. It had a character who was meant to be a bully doing these things, but like all reasonable people, even Brew was capable of self reflection and redemption.

Creamy-sama
04:44:26 PM Apr 15th 2014
edited by 184.101.179.225
@Blunttime

Wow. I must say, your last post has left me with a whirlwind of emotions at revelation of so much information. Now I too have some information to share with you as well. Now while I still have some counter-arguments, refutations, and the like. Undoubtedly, you have shaken my view of this infamous webcomic where now I contest whether or not it should go in the Horrible section of this site. Regardless, the entry needs some heavy revising if it still qualifies. I'm going to be elaborating so I need to go step by step. Here goes... TL;DR mode.

First, some minor embarassment. I'm sorry I got the names wrong in my previous post. It was Chris Hall, avatar Brew, who was the writer and coder of the site, and perceived beer addled fratboy who did not know what he was doing. And it was Brian Krumm, avatar trip, who was the artist and perceived woobie who mindlessly followed Brew despite his own immense potential. Again sorry for the mix up.

Second, some feelings of laughter, and minor anger. That Blended Goose stuff and those Penny Arcade Forum shenanigans sure had me fooled. I mean look at this comic here: imgur.com/u2kEr1t.jpg

It looks just like the artstyle of the actual comic, right down to the linework and graphical edges, and the writing is a little similar too, if you were to tell me that this was done by the Shredded Moose duo, I would believe you. And I did believe, hook line and sinker. I've been trolled, and I must say it was a very good and elaborate prank and was actually pretty funny. Interestingly enough, now that I know it's a troll comic, I found this comic with Anita Sarkeesian, Tatsuya Ishida, and David Cheung actually pretty funny but in so-bad-it's-good in-joke sense, because it features all these horrible internet personalities who are each detestable in their unique way. Brew, for being the infamous misogynistic fratboy we love to hate, Tatsuya Ishida, for ruining his decent webcomic with extreme militant and unreasonable feminism, Anita Sarkeesian, for being a clueless gaming journalist, and David Cheung, for being a creepy motherfucker with his "ero-guro" art. It's like a bad webcomic gettogether extravaganza!

The Coach_Brew antics have left me in stitches as well. I mean the troll got Brew's condescending mannerisms and "swiggity-swag" bro speak down to a science. Again if you were to tell me he was Chris Hall, I'd totally believe you. This was all a really convincing act!

http://www.patreon.com/creation?hid=363860

Though these Blended Goose antics are funny they also frustrate me a bit because of some dishonesty on behalf of those in on the trolling. People like me actually did think it was Chris Hall being stupid online, again, when in actuality, he is still in hiding and MIA. Thus in a way, they're, especially after what you told me about Chris Hall and thus giving me a different picture about the man, tarnishing a guy's name when not called for, and beating a dead(and drunk) horse that's really really dead(and drunk) and yet despite all that, this horse was trying hard to redeem itself before it got beaten to death.

Speaking of people pretending to be Brew, I stumbled upon this amateur video on youtube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsrKhK8kA0A

Now, while the production values and performance of that video is a little iffy at times, I do give kudos to this guy(Homor) for at least being a little honest because you can see from the get go that it's a parody act. I also felt the line from 1:04 to 1:14 had me in stitches.

"Um yeah, my old artist... Brian Krumm... He wouldn't come back because apparently he's got a lucrative career in children's books and he doesn't want to be associated with a guy who does a webcomic where the protagonist rapes a women and laughs at them... BUT THAT'S OKAAAYAY!"

Which now brings us to Trip, his master Brew, their character evolution, the evolution of the webcomic, other characters, the public's reaction to the webcomic, and Brain's dreams.

And those feelings are of bemused surprise and sadness.

About the bemused surprise.

The whole idea of Trip being a misguided woobie, was a narrative collected by the various critics of the webcomic.

I think it first began when Lilith Ester of John Solomon's posse tackled the comic stating

"On a slightly happier note, there was one strip that did not crush all my hope in humanity. That one was amusing, but nowhere near so much as to actually redeem the rest of it."

The word strip linked to the Going Postal comic that everyone liked.

She then added...

"You will notice that until now, I've only been talking about the writing and not the art. I am going to remedy that by saying that the art is actually fairly all right. Sure, it's not strikingly original and derivative of Penny Arcade, but there is no evidence of copy+pasting, the shading and highlights are consistent with the light source and despite the SUPER SHINY OH MY GOD surfaces, it'd be pleasant to look at if not for the subject matter. If you clicked on the links, you'd know how badly the dude draws boobs. They're almost always oversized, vaguely banana-shaped or have nipples like hubcaps. Yeesh. Even the Orc Feminist has erect nipples and her ample cleavage on show."

One single criticism of the comic in regards to the art was that despite being good, the nudity was generally horribly drawn and fetish retardant. The consensus was "Trip is good when he's not drawing porn, and unfortunately, Brew forces him to draw more porn!"

Lilith Ester also stated.

"Trip also likes to draw cameltoes, lending weight to the idea that he's no older than 14."

Anyway, also in that link to the Badwebcomics review, you should scourge around the comments section because Chris Hall actually tried defending his comic in the comments in the kind of mannerism that I described( in a condescending, cover your ass excuses kind of way), and ends up being pwnd by John and the gang. I will fish out the comment and repost them here to document the conversation, but I wanted to get to right now is this guy's response to Chris Hall's defense:

Aldatze said... "The only character I find remotely likable and worth developing in this train wreck is the blond haired kid, I say "blond haired kid" because he's so underdeveloped that I can't remember his name. He's naive and plays well against Brews douche-baggery. He should be the one pointing out how much of a stupid asshole Brew is, if not with words, with his actions. Sure, this isn't the most original solution, but ANYTHING would make this comic suck less. Right now, you're trying to have your cake and eat it too with a character who is an asshole to everyone and the world adores him. You think he's hip, and cool, and a badass, because you and Brew are one and the same. Learn some humility man."

After John Solomon's blog disappeared, the inferior Badwebcomics wiki surfaced, run by some John Solomon fans. They themselves did their own take on Shredded Moose, and continued this "Trip as the woobie" narrative on their author biography section of their review:

http://webcomicauthority.wikidot.com/shredded-moose

""Brew" is as disgusting as it is possible for a person to be. It isn't even that he's a misogynist, it's that he doesn't really get why his misogyny makes women want to murder him in his sleep and why it makes men view him a threat to real men everywhere.

"Trip" is another story. Rarely speaking out and by all appearances younger and more inexperienced than Brew, you just kind of feel sorry that Brew dragged him into this horrific debacle. I personally hope that Trip can recover, although I feel like he might have to go gay to find a girlfriend, considering that he's already alienated perhaps half of all women who will ever see his art on SM. At least if he's honest with them about it. My advice: Take the cock. I'm sure it can't be all bad, dude. As Brew might say, hey, it's probably like taking a big crap."

"Poor Trip can draw everything but women very well, which is depressing considering that Brew is forcing his storyline into lesbian intercourse and naked Orc feminists every other strip. The strip's art is pretty much Penny Arcade with sex references instead of video game references. In case you've never seen either, that means blocky detailing, a hard push towards stylishness over realism, and more copy-pasting than, say, Lackadaisy Cats but less than the likes of Ctrl-Alt-Del. "

"Writing kills Shredded Moose. It utterly fails at being entertaining in any way and succeeds primarily at making the reader feel like a chauvinistic douchebag just for having opened the comic on his or her browser. The fact of the matter is that having a comic wherein the PS3, portrayed as a girl, is violently slaughtered by Mario for no apparent reason is not funny. Brew, the reason it's gross isn't Trip; he's drawing the scene just as he should. It's you. This arbitrary violence bullshit is not funny, it's disgusting.

For some reason, Brew decided that having a feminist hippie go after his Mary-Sue would make for good comicry. Apparently, when people accuse you of being a chauvinist you simply attach yourself to a feminist and it balances out. Except that it doesn't. It's weird to see the same exact feminist who once railed against you now having sex with you. Incidentally, I don't understand why your character had the need to wash off after making love to Monique, the purple-clad redhead; she's easily the most attractive woman in your entire comic. At least she isn't cartoonishly proportioned and looks vaguely normal.

In the end, Brew, after reading through your comic and looking at your various attitudes towards women, I get the feeling that you are a closeted, overcompensating homosexual. You have an obsession with forcing Trip to draw naked women that is almost unhealthy, if such a thing is possible. Look, all I'm saying is that I've never seen a man that was so sexually insecure that he felt a need to constantly show how much he thought that naked women were attractive."

So I find it a little funny that I'm not the only that came away with this narrative but many other did too. It was believed to come totally from us, like sort of wild mass guessing theory because it came out of mere internet cold reading.

It's also a little weird because Trip was not the voice of reason in the earlier strips, he was just Brew's lackey. His role, was just following Brew around going all bug eyed saying "Man Brew! You're so cool! I wish I was as cool as you" as if he was an easily impressionable naive youth. It's like with flying monkeys from the Wizard of Oz. It's the witch that's the problem. Remove the witch, and the flying monkeys stop being terrifying, and start being adorable.

I remember there was also a comic where Brew told Trip that if he wanted to get laid, if should act, appear, or be smart.

So. with all that in mind, I find it hilarious awesome and cool when I found out that this happened in the actual comic when everyone else and myself were not looking; Trip does actually breaks out of fratboy matrix, becomes his own person, and turns the tables on his fratboy master Brew by disregarding his crappy dating advice and views on women.

In fact some of the other comics on the page you showed me were, refreshing to say the least. It's like Chris Hall took Aldatze's advice and made an effort to deconstruct the douchey Brew and build upon the character who had potential, Trip. Thus turning the comic into a much needed deconstruction of fratboys who take in Tucker Max and Maddox the wrong way.

But it also weird because it seems to betray what the first half built up, although I don't mind much the first half being thrown out the window because I found the first half was excrement most foul. Most especially the date rape comic.

It's like the comic was at first making constant dude not funny! jokes through a completely Jerkass character, and having the nerve to say "LAUGH WITH THIS GUY! THIS GUY IS ALWAYS RIGHT! HE IS SO COOL!" and then mid way, when most have left the charade in disgust, the comic pulls a 180 and says "Okay okay, remember this guy? Don't do what this guy says, HE SUCKS! He's a terrible human being and he needs to be taught a lesson, but stick around he might change with the help of all those around him, including this blond kid that used to think he was cool, and this feminist woman who we mocked in the past. She's cool now"

Let me explain.

The first half of the comic seemed to be a Penny Arcade clone, except one with more sex.

In Penny Arcade, Gabe and Tycho tell videogame jokes, do character based humor, and show off their wit by making fun of industry giants, media, and John Romero for the umpteenth time. Basically the gist of Penny Arcade was that Gabe and Tycho super smart, super savvy, radical gaming dudes on a couch here to play video games, review video games, all the bitch slapping stupid people with a vengeance and rocking your face with edgy zanyness. And that's the "Two Gamers on a Couch Genre"

There have been many "Gamers-on-a-couch" comics in the past few years, "Ctrl-Alt-Delete", "Power-Up Comics", and of course this comic. Now if you heard all the shenanigans that Tim Buckley has done, you know people were tiring of this genre, especially when it was seen as gateway for ego driven authors to self insert themselves and go on mary sue wish fulfillment fanboy rampages complete with uncalled for political pushing and the usual not as educated opinions. The mission statement of this comic, as advertised on forums was "Brew and Trip are radical gamers out to cure the world of stupid!" With that mission statement, it generally believed that this comic was taken to be a more sexier Penny Arcade, and we are supposed to take Brew and Trip as super savvy protagonist and agree with their positions on everything and laugh at everything they do. Which is why I have hard time believing that the drama elements were planned from the get do. That and also the writer and the artist would personify themselves as Brew and Trip respectively leading us to believe that when Brew was going "Ahahahaha look at that feminist Orc!" we took it to believe that the author thought so about feminists as well.

And again, I might be cold reading here, but take a look at this strip here:

Note that it is Brew who is wearing the sweater of Tycho, and Trip who is wearing the shirt of Gabe.

Now if you're unfamiliar with the Penny Arcade duo, I'll just say that their characters are basically mature rated versions of The Angry Beavers. Gabe is like the violent impulsive imature Daggot to Tycho's suave sophisticated and pompous Norbert.

Likewise I get the feeling that Brew was originally supposed taken to be as sauve uber cool as shit bro who gets all the ladies.

On the Penny Arcade website, Gabe and Tycho also do written game reviews. I remember when the Shredded Moose site was still up, they too had written game reviews, just like on Penny Arcade, and Brew would do the reviewing. The reviews I remember he did were for the then new Tomb Raider game, simply titled Lara Croft Tomb Raider. He gave it a positive score, but also of course commented on Lara's Breasts saying they were jigglier.

The Shredded Moose site also had a forum, and according to Lilith Ester, had an "educational" thread that was there just for posting porn. I remember Brew also posting a joke link that said "Gateway to hell" and the link linked to the Special Olympics site which if I remembered earned him some scorn for being a mean spirited. At one point during the site's lifetime the forum was raided by "Anonymous" but specifically the /v/ and /co/ userbase of 4chan. When this happened the forums were filled with mocking spam posts shouting "HEY BRO WASSUP DAAAAYUM IMMA BREW I'M SO COOL I FUCK VAGINAS AND PUNCH THEM!!!" Suffice to say, I think it was this incident that drove Chris Hall off the internet, and also drove Shredded Moose into further infamy since the date rape comic. I think Encyclopedia Dramatica documented a little about raid on their John Solomon page. I think they said something along the lines of "Anonymous brought forth swift justice on the Shredded Moose forums, exposing Brew for the beer addled fratboy that he is".

Suffice to say ED and 4chan, were, and still are the people who popularize the phrases "Bitches & Whores" "Tits or GTFO" and "Ronery Gamers generals", as well as guro fics like Cupcakes and that one Rocket Power copypasta where Tito says "It's time for a dicking!" so if these people are calling out a webcomic for being too misogynistic for their own tastes, then that is one hell of a message being sent to the public.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EvenEvilHasStandards

However, like you said, this comic is not Satan incarnate(well, not the latter strips at least), and neither is it's author Chris Hall. Chris Hall just seems to be a flawed human being who had legitimately relocatable dreams and ideals of success and stardom, yet ended up making too many mistakes, and when he realized what he'd done, and tried to fix it all.

I used to think of Chris Hall as just some random assclown on the internet who got his shit served in internet arguments. I merely laughed at him, much in the same way I would view Fred Durst. He was certainly a loser to me, but not as a horrendous internet loser as Chris Chan or ADF or Nick Bates. He was to me, just a clown, someone who prances until the forums promoting his webcomic with shin diggity brospeak, and then covering his ass and looking embarassed when people told him how much his jokes were non existent and how much of a jerkass his self insert protagonist was. In sense, I actually appreciated his presence on the web, not his Mary Brue, but him, Chris Hall, when he posted on forums just to advertise his webcomic. I probably didn't appreciated his presence on forums in a way he intended, because it was all from incitement of laughter on behalf of him making a fool out of himself.

However, now that I understand what his intent was, and how hard he tried to get there, I now actually feel really bad and sorry for the guy. He made quite some mistakes, but his ultimate crimes, I think, were just not understanding certain tropes when it came to writing, specifically comedy.

Plus learning code is quite an accomplishment. I personally know how math can hard some times. Sometimes you end up in a course in college that is way too advanced and sometimes you end up in a course that's way too easy. You have to learn all the prerequisites when it comes to mathematics especially when it comes down to computer programing. So now when I think back to that strip where Brew mocked both the PC and the Mac, I realize maybe he wasn't just catering to both parties for more hits, he might really been a Linux user! But in seriousness, the dream to have a gaming webcomic which would be more adult, and be devoted to reviews and minor political commentary, is actually a pretty cool idea, I'm just sad that idea never reached it's potential. I also get the feeling the Chris Hall is like some sort of reverse Dave Willis, in that guy can actually do some decent drama, but fails miserably at comedy. Gosh I bet the guy might be crying himself to sleep at night because John Solomon, Anonymous, Yaoi Huntress Earth, and the rest of us were so mean to him...

Now for a little bit of minor refutations.

On the Date Rape comic, I recently downloaded mediafire collection of Shredded Moose strips, and I must say, the Date rape comic, along with quite a lot of entries are missing. Conspicuously absent. It would seem to that number 36 is understandably an Old Shame as it does taint the whole comic to an irredeemable level.

On subject of Rape. Rape is serious business and is not just some trope to be thrown around with little care. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DudeNotFunny

First some little side stories to further my point. The Nostalgia Chick over at That Guy With The Glasses, is a pretty decently respected web personality. Now she once did a little segment in a review called "Rap about Rape". She did the segment in a totally satirical manner, and keep in mind that she is a woman, and she is also a little bit of a feminist. She infuriated her fans and everyone who saw the segment because rape is a trigger subject that really is not to be taken likely. The same goes for Mookie of Dominic Deegan and Spooney and his little jest towards JesuOtaku that cost him his gig at TGWTG(actually his bipolar meltdown, if he just fessed up and apologized, sincerely, he'd had been working again with TGWTG no sweat). Shredded Moose tackled rape in the worst way possible by making the rape of an unconscious blitzed woman the subject of joke, and even if it was actually Brew's creepy douchebaggery that was the subject of the joke, then it would still fail because again rape is like the complete monster of crimes in our society. The utterance of it inspires dread in all but the depraved.

This is why I find the date rape comic horrible. The comic would be forgivable without it.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CerebusSyndrome

I think the term "cerebus syndrome" still counts on this because "cereberus syndrome" I think is simply a switch from comedy to drama. It may have been always dark, but it was still a shift from straight up comedy to drama. Though I would now say that maybe it wasn't as "Poorly executed" as the entry said it was, seeing that the more redeemable strips are in the latter half of the comic. The latter comics work differently too, which again I think is what prevented this comic from getting an audience. If you were ask me, I would say the latter half of the comic, including the Deconstruction of Brew, the character development of Trip and Monique, and tragedy of Mutt would count as an attempted Author's Saving Throw.

Also on the issue of women in the comics, just keep this trope in mind. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madonna_whore_complex

While it's true that comic does not call out women as manipulative bitches(although it does consider some of the feminists to be orcs, keep that in mind), the comic does paint a lot of the women as "Madonnas" and by "Madonnas" I mean "ripe for the picking". For you see, in the misogynist's mind, women are either whores, or pure innocent childlike nubiles just waiting to be deflowered, and if you're a misogynist like Brew was in the earlier strips, you deflower as many Madonnas and toss them aside like used Kleenex.

Most of the women I have seen in the Shredded Moose comic fall under the nubile nympho Madonna category, which makes kind of surprising when Monique ends up get fleshed out as character although there's still the case with the sleeping in bed somewhere along the more serious latter half. Of course I take that her relationship with Brew ends being the serious relationship to which Brew commits. However I could imagine readers who abandoned reading the webcomic during the earlier phase taking glace at the particular strip, rolling their eyes, and saying "typical Shredded Moose" without understanding the context of the scene.

Again, I would argue for So-Bad-It's-Horrible for the earlier comics, but not the latter comics. Just the earlier comics. The latter comics from what I've seen so far are mix between So Bad It's good, So Cool it's awesome, and so Okay it's average. But because the mere existence of the earlier comics brings down the quality of the latter comics, and the latter comics are relatively decent on their own. If one could somehow retcon the gag-a-day mary sue to the extreme earlier comics, ax the Penny Arcade esque interface, ax the gamer on a couch format, and started and just stick with dramedy storyline the latter comics would have been truly decent, if not average.
PancticeSquadCutterback
topic
11:16:21 AM Jun 30th 2013
edited by 216.99.32.45
I actually think Billy the Heretic should be removed. It actually does have a decent fanbase of white supremacists, and they find the jokes funny.
Sorantheman
04:38:57 PM Sep 21st 2013
edited by 81.230.125.91
I doubt that counts considering how they are far from the most mature bunch out there. You could jingle swastica-shaped keyrings infront of white supremacists faces and they would laugh like madmen! PS: the ammount of critics the comic has FAR outweighs the ammount of supporters it has.
MilknPopcorn
11:47:53 PM Dec 5th 2013
I wonder if there are any White Supremacists who dislike Billy the Heretic? Because if the majority of them do enjoy it, would that count?

Also, while I'm sure there are plenty of stupid White Supremacists, most of them can at least string a sentence together!
SeptimusHeap
06:23:15 AM Dec 6th 2013
I am not sure if we can keep it. The page explicitly says "Merely being offensive in its subject matter doesn't make it this"
Sorantheman
01:05:10 PM Jan 29th 2014
Here is the thing, though.

Want to know why the nazis like it? Not because of it's humor. Not because of it's art. not because of it's writing. It is only because it agrees with them. They only like it because it kisses their ass. Strokes their ego. Blows their horn. Sucks their dicks. That's all you have to do to win them over. It's that easy. You can make ANYTHING as lazily and terrible as you want for them, but if you add any message such as "dem jews be da evilz", "dem meksicuns be taking our jerbs" or "dose taowelheds muslims love satan", no matter how badly, blatantly or moronic, they will instantly like it. Why else do you think that nobody else likes the comic?

So it is not "merely offensive". It is shit in every sence of the word. shit art, shit writing, shit characters, shit comedy, shit message, shit creator, and most fittlingy of all: a shit fanbase consisting of some of the lowest, hatefilled, paranoid, gullible and awful scum on the planet.

To make it short: Billy the Heretic stays on this page.
shoboni
topic
04:00:12 PM Mar 29th 2013
edited by shoboni
I thumbed through a good chunk of The Freckled Finger, and I'm not sure it fits. It's by no means good, and does suffer from Dude, Not Funny! quite a bit, but other then that it just seems kinda "Meh".
JHM
topic
09:37:42 PM Mar 1st 2013
Was Boston and Shaun listed and then cut? I'm curious. That webcomic is infamous for its total incomprehensibility.
Aradials
08:43:01 AM Mar 24th 2013
Likewise, what happened to the entries about "Jack" and "US Angel Corps"?
thewatchfuleye
topic
05:34:05 PM Jan 11th 2013
I think that Jenffer´s Show fits perfectly into the list of horrible webcomics. Beside of the hideous artwork, the dialogues are very poorly written (And sometimes filled with grammar mistakes) in some of the most recent entries for this webcomic, the texts are literally unreadable due the confusing handwriting. It also suffers of a muddled narrative which made it very hard to understand what is going on most of the time.
ecourmo
10:46:20 AM Jul 28th 2013
I think that it definately deserves at least one mention.
Mo
topic
07:06:50 PM May 1st 2012
Should we add Shadbase or Grim Tales from Down Below to this page?
Videogamer07
09:54:08 PM May 1st 2012
I don't think Grim Tales is deserving of being put on this page. So Bad, It's Horrible is meant for the absolute worst things that very few (if any) people like; last time I checked (years ago), it has its fans.
Freezer
06:12:06 PM Nov 21st 2012
Other than the fact that it's fetish porn, what's so bad about Shadbase?
ABLb0y
02:23:11 PM Apr 4th 2013
This review should answer that question http://badwebcomics.wikidot.com/shaedbase
Sorantheman
10:27:10 AM Sep 22nd 2013
Shadbase is more of a Love It or Hate It type of thing. Has about as many supporters as detractors. So no, we're not adding Shadbase here. At least for now.
Aradials
04:09:01 PM Oct 28th 2013
I'd say add it. The guy's a pedophile, and a mysogonist. It's like with Billy the Heretic's fans; he has them, but they're hardly what you'd call mature. I guarantee you that you can't anything resembling a positive review anywhere.
Mo
topic
07:06:50 PM May 1st 2012
Should we add Shadbase or Grim Tales from Down Below to this page?
molotov
topic
05:40:00 PM Feb 7th 2012
Should the Nice Guy webcomic be removed from the so bad it's horrible page for webcomics? I've given the comic a brief run through, and it doesn't seem that egregiously bad. Its content mostly consists of dry nerdy humor or scenes from everyday life. I can see how someone would dislike it; I personally think that it's a guilty pleasure or just the normal kind of subpar; it really doesn't stand out anywhere and it's forgettable and harmless compared to most other comics on the page. I vote in favor of removing the entry on the grounds that the entry seems more like complaining about something the troper doesn't like and that the comic itself is just okay to subpar rather than being gut wrenchingly attrocious.
Aradials
02:36:26 PM Nov 21st 2012
Agreed. I'll remove it later.

nuclearneo577
topic
04:48:22 PM Jun 25th 2011
I'm pretty sure the main page was cut by mistake.
KingClark
topic
03:58:15 PM Jun 11th 2011
Does Electric Retard qualify for this?
shoboni
04:46:19 PM Mar 29th 2013
I remember it's page saying it had fans dedicated enough that have their own fandom nickname, so probably not.
SoWeAteThem
topic
01:04:12 PM Apr 29th 2011
I'd like to defend Pastel Defender Heliotrope.
The writing is bizzarre, pacing might be off, it's nigh-incomprehensible...
...But Reitz is a competent artist with a knack for Scenery Porn, (At the top of [insert gender-specific pronoun] game, [said pronoun] is even capable of aping the works of Akiko-era Mark Crilley) it's emotionally moving at points (Albeit the wrong kind of emotion on occasions) ...even the scene described on the page was Actually Pretty Funny.
It's So Bad, It's Good at worst.
Dentaku
topic
12:09:13 PM Jan 11th 2011
edited by Dentaku
Somehow I don't find Moon Over June all that horrible. Sure, it's totally nonsensical and the artist should really stop screwing up the character's faces all the time, but I had a few good laughs here and there. It's quite hard on men and women alike, especially lesbians, who are generally depicted as sex-addicted nut-jobs. Then again, I have had some encounters with such types, so it's not that unrealistic. I have to admit though that the author was really stretching things during the pregnancy arc—literally. And damn, why are they always eating in the kitchen naked? Don't they know that crumbs can wind up anywhere?
Drpepperfan
11:12:00 AM Jan 30th 2011
I agree. For example, R.K Millholland said it's one of his favourite webcomics at the moment. Surely that means it can't be an example of failing to appeal to any niche, if the creator of one of the most popular webcomics likes it.
Drpepperfan
01:22:31 PM Feb 23rd 2011
Oh, and Josh Lesnick. And a whole bunch of other people. Seriously, it doesn't belong here. Can we just remove it?
Drpepperfan
06:52:16 AM Mar 9th 2011
It's really more of a Your Milage May Vary, perhaps a Base B Reaker, but universally agreed to be horrible? God no. That's just dumb.
PulpoOscuro
01:45:04 PM Jan 11th 2012
edited by PulpoOscuro
For me, there was something very subtly disturbing about the art style on a fundamental level. I'm not entirely sure what it was, possibly the lips and skin tones, but I'm not sure. The art style didn't have any immediately disturbing (i.e. Smiledog) or immediately bad (i.e. Sonichu) qualities, it was just... subtly wrong.

OH GOD

AN ELDRITCH ABOMINATION IS ON THE INTERNET

AND IT TOOK THE FORM OF LESBIAN PORN
189.79.160.219
topic
08:29:13 PM Jan 8th 2011
I think a webcomic called "Las Lindas" fits perfectly into this. Copious amounts of anthro girls with massive breasts and fanservice, boring characters and lack of plot.
SomeNewGuy
06:34:22 AM Jan 9th 2011
errrr....no. It has a sizable fanbase, and is actually pretty good. :/
mrjeff
topic
05:08:41 PM Jan 5th 2011
Could someone elaborate further on why faithmore is horrible besides the reasons of being weird.
AnonymousMcCartneyfan
topic
07:57:33 PM Oct 2nd 2010
Note: Should The Other M be listed here, or under Fan Fic? Seeing as it's both.
Tyoria
10:18:56 AM Oct 28th 2010
I'm not sure that it should be listed at all. I'm not talking about my personal opinion, I'm talking about the fact that when it was announced that Ian would be joining the comic there was quite a bit of positive response largely based on the reception of Other-M. Not everyone loved it, some people hated it (obviously), but its fans were hardly a tiny minority. Why would it warrant an inclusion here? Strikes me as Opinion Myopia.
AnonymousMcCartneyfan
topic
05:09:55 PM Sep 3rd 2010
Note on the Gamer Chicks comic: the original summary suggested that the art was So Bad, It's Good, which may have been related to the reviews of horror that got appended to it. I removed the comments and adjusted the description.
AnonymousMcCartneyfan
topic
09:35:49 PM Aug 8th 2010
Cut this and put it here for now. It can't be both So Bad, It's Good and So Bad, It's Horrible, it's been contested before, and if there are enough people who think it's So Bad, It's Good...

  • Kit N Kay Boodle stars a large cast of animals having sex yiffing in public all the time in a creepily cartoonish Mary Suetopia. The listing at Author Tract is a good summary: "It is entirely a vehicle for Richard Katellis' views on free love, yiffing, and the plight of the furry community. The world outside of idyllic, nudist Yiffburg is full of monstrous dictatorships and ruthless capitalist states that criticize Yiffburg for being horny layabouts. Any character who doesn't constantly want sex with total strangers is either an evil fascist or a repressed soul, and the answer is invariably anonymous sex, either to defeat or convert them to the yiffy way of life." One character even looks like a giant penis  *. The strip might actually be tolerable if not for the fact that it's drawn in a cutesy, cartoonish style, turning any possible sexual content into extra-strength Fetish Retardant. All sorts of horridness abounds, including a Fantastic Drug which acts as both an aphrodisiac and contraceptive; immodest orgasms; Parental Incest; Rape as Redemption... and none of the Yiffburgians even bother to work because exporting the berries is enough to sustain their economy[[hottip:*:There's also some Unfortunate Implications about the way the Fantastic Drug works-it comes in two colors, indicating which sex is supposed to eat which berry. But the "bottoms" of gay male couples eat the berries meant for women. Um...
Samadhir
06:16:28 AM Aug 9th 2010
Why can't it be both? Opinions will differ and inevitably some will find it one or the other. From what I gather however, there are alot more people who consider it horrible than good. The fact that some people find it So Bad, It's Good shouldn't exclude it from the list, since any webcomic, no matter how bad, will have at least a couple of fans.
SabreJustice
04:34:06 AM Aug 16th 2010
edited by SabreJustice
I'm the one who added that little line, and jeez, it was just a throwaway line. I've read a good deal of the comic and noted how it seems to take a lot of Furry Fandom habits and beliefs and make them look even more ridiculous, but there's no way I'd ever read it again. I felt like I'd been defiled and caught diabetes.

I felt like I was raped by a Care Bear.
triassicranger
09:50:14 AM Aug 22nd 2010
edited by triassicranger
So Bad, It's Horrible is for works that have no fans whatsoever. Not simply because a large group of people find it "horrible". If something has some sort of following (regardless of whether they genuinely enjoy or because they find it So Bad, It's Good) it can't be listed here.
MatthewTheRaven
09:53:49 AM Aug 22nd 2010
I know we say that, but really, everything can have an ironic fandom that finds it So Bad, It's Good, so maybe we should just get rid of the entire category.
Crowley
03:12:40 PM Aug 31st 2010
As long as it isn't simply boring, I think anything can be So Bad, It's Good if the viewer has a sufficiently dark sense of humor and pain tolerance. If the entirety of the readerbase consists of the few ironic readers who can stomach it (which Kit N Kay Boodle is very much so), said readerbase isn't enough to redeem something out of So Bad, It's Horrible status.
SoWeAteThem
12:51:42 PM Apr 29th 2011
If it's liked, if accidentally, it can't be here can it?
I find it highly enjoyable, but for all the wrong reasons. Narm Charm, anybody?
If people are laughing, but for all the wrong reasons, bottom line is, they're still laughing.
Tack me on the list of contestors.
AnonymousMcCartneyfan
topic
07:12:50 PM Jul 12th 2010
Cut this and put it here. As abhorrent as it is, we cannot list it for the same reason we do not want to list Left Behind. There are fewer Neo-Nazis than fundamentalist pre-millenial-rapture Christians (we hope), but the principle is the same.

  • Billy The Heretic is widely acknowledged as the single worst webcomic on the internet. It is an allegedly autobiographical work about a young boy who was adopted by a "rich international Jewish" family. To say that it was full of Unfortunate Implications would indicate that the author was attempting to imply anything. He wasn't —it's all on the page. The artwork is spectacularly awful: there's not a shred of color anywhere, backgrounds are never anything beyond blank white stretches, and every character but the protagonist is a hideously drawn stereotype caricature. The protagonist is more grotesque than any of the others with his perfectly round nose and baffling ability to develop a Mickey Mouse snout every time he says something "clever". The Designated Villains are more sympathetic than the protagonist. There is no plot or characterization intended in this strip.... Imagine your average white supremacist arguments that "Jews deserved the Holocaust" and "All inner city blacks are subhuman criminals" presented as a comic strip. That's all it is - retarded white supremacist propaganda presented in comic strip format. Literally. The author is literally a Neo-Nazi.
EmperorSteele
07:21:04 PM Jul 12th 2010
Except that comic isn't bad just for its political content, but even when you talk about style, substance, pacing, and dialogue, it's still horrible. Left Behind is a PUBLISHED WORK, which means despite its controversial content, it's gone through Quality assurance, checking, and editing. Billy The Heretic? Not so much.

Perhaps you should have opened a discussion about removing that part instead of automatically doing so. Regardless, let's have the discussion now. Troopers: yay or nay on this?
Glowsquid
03:28:56 AM Jul 13th 2010
I don't think something should be removed because it has a "fanbase" through Preaching to the Choir. Should Battlefield Earth (the movie) be removed because it has a following among Scientologists?
AnonymousMcCartneyfan
09:07:39 PM Jul 15th 2010
Does it have a following among Scientologists?

Seriously, we have to be careful about ignoring the choir. We need to have an idea of how big a niche can be before we can stop ignoring it...

Left Behind is popular (at least in the manner intended) primarily among its choir. Those books got written and published so fast that the QA was primarily to make sure that everything was spelled right, grammatically passable, and doctrinally correct. (For instance, Slacktivist noted that the first book, at least, both spent more time on geographical matters than the average reader would want and got the geography wrong.) But its choir is big enough to make the series a bestseller!

The measures for webcomics are less concrete. You can't always tell clicks from Bile Fascination from clicks from genuine interest. So it does matter how big that fanbase is.
RhymeBeat
topic
02:01:31 PM Jun 27th 2010
Mentioning Sonichu while telling other tropers not to mention Sonichu is a Logic Bomb. I think we should stick to the policy we have on the Sonichu page itself. Mention the comic (to a reasonable degree) but not the author.
  • And no So Bad, It's Good is when there's some entertainment value in the material that makes people want to watch it. The only reason to read Sonichu is Bile Fascination.
Inferno232
topic
12:50:43 PM Jun 10th 2010
Please add Sonichu again. The comic itself sucks. We don't have to go into detail about the creator if that avoids making certain people angry. I don't like Political Correctness when it's abused to far extremes, but whatever, I understand the thinking there. But the comic, all by its lonesome, definitely qualifies for this trope.
Russo1930
02:08:25 PM Jun 10th 2010
I put it back, with the added bullets that Sonichu has become to gays and women what Billy the Heretic is to Jews. It's more than just Chris's personal life, he himself has displayed fierce sexism and homophobia inside his comic, so it easily warrants an inclusion back in.
Glowsquid
02:45:59 PM Jun 10th 2010
Though the natter is horribly long and just complain about Chris's shit and whatever, the main entry gives enough reasons. The original entry - but only the original - should be restored.
Stepith
12:59:59 PM Jun 11th 2010
edited by Stepith
I also agree with bringing back the Sonichu entry as I was just reading Asperchu and then when I clicked back, it was gone

Edit: I read it under the So Bad Its Horrible Webcomics entry. Correction added
AnonymousMcCartneyfan
07:26:19 PM Jun 11th 2010
edited by AnonymousMcCartneyfan
No, don't restore Sonichu!!!

I was already suspicious of the work's place here when Sonichu got a Narm listing. Good works can be injured by Narm, and bad works can be leavened by it; but, since Narm is funny, it is a bright spot and a redemptive factor, and so most varieties of Horrible work can't have it.

But the kicker to me was the (continued) existence of a Fanfic Recommendations page for Sonichu, complete with fanfics. For someone to write a fanfic of a work, there must be something worth working with. Now, to the best of my knowledge, all important characters in Sonichu are either original in a cut&paste way or based on real people; that is, this is not a true Derivative Work. So, if there is something in there worth writing fanfic about, then there is something in there worth reading it for other than simple Bile Fascination. Ergo, it cannot be Horrible — just bad, possibly pushing So Bad, It's Good.

ETA: I meant don't restore it to this page. I'm in favor of a page for it existing if the flames can be kept down.
Glowsquid
05:07:18 PM Jun 12th 2010
Except Sonichu "fan"work is all about making fun of Chris, torturing the characters or deconstructing the setting. This (NSFW) is what the typical Sonichu fic look like.
Russo1930
01:42:27 PM Jun 13th 2010
Restore Sonichu.

When your fanbase consists entirely of trolls, you are the definition of So Bad It's Horrible. There has been possilby one person who actually liked Sonichu, and Chris thought she was a troll. He deserves to have it.
Lime
09:43:54 PM Jun 18th 2010
edited by Lime
As the person who made the Fanfic Recommendations page for Sonichu, I believe that it deserves to be on this list. Ordinarily, yes, the existence of fanfic would mean that at least one person enjoys the work and/or thinks there is material to work off of, but this webcomic is... Different. From what I've seen, Sonichu fanworks tend to be in one of three groups, with the occasional overlap: deconstructions (Asperchu, Chris Gets Laid, Capering Berries), grim gorefests (Sonichu Finale, The Death of Sonichu, A Very Sonichu Adventure) or Refuge in Audacity comedy (Moon-Pals, Sonichu is Dead, Sonichu: The Animated Series)... Actually, the gore group seems to go will with the other two, the aforementioned Chris Gets Laid and Sonichu is Dead being examples. The only "honest" fanwork I can think of for Sonichu is the remake and the fan promo, and even then it's obvious that they've been done for the lulz (the latter especially, with the line "No Darkies, Jerkop!" and all).

TL;DR: Sonichu fanwork only exists to mock Chris and his creation.

(By the way, can't Bile Fascination apply even when the work isn't So Bad It's Good? With Sonichu, it's like a radioactive trainwreck: looking at it will melt your eyes out, but you can't not look at it.)

... Oh god, why am I arguing over a shitty webcomic drawn by a manchild? orz
AnonymousMcCartneyfan
08:33:26 PM Jun 20th 2010
Yeah, Bile Fascination does apply to Horrible works — else we would not have this index at all. We would be trying our hardest to pretend these works were never made if Bile Fascination didn't apply.

Sorry about that. <feels guilty>
Cannotrememberpasswords
04:23:03 PM Jun 27th 2010
I concur. Just because its writer is a loser surrounded by some sort of surprisingly interesting bile-fascinated cult doesn't mean that his comic doesn't suck ass. It's drawn using MARKERS, for the love of the FSM! MARKERS!
217.171.129.69
05:26:59 PM Jun 27th 2010
Indeed, the reasons to drop Sonichu's entry from this don't make sense to me. As of writing this there isn't a So Bad, It's Good entry for Sonichu, and it genuinely is thought by most to be So Bad, It's Horrible (hell, I think it's the Most Triumphant Example). As for it causing people to attack the creator as well as his creation, well we just edit out the former whenever it appears.

How about this compromise: just include a link to the Sonichu TV Tropes page from So Bad, It's Horrible and add an instruction to not add anything else 'cos there's no need-it's all there in the page!
Samadhir
topic
09:32:14 AM Jun 9th 2010
Okay, seriously: why the hell was Kit'n'Kay Boodle removed from the list?! Can anyone give a good reason why the comic isn't So Bad, It's Horrible? Yeah, I know that someone made an entry for it on the So Bad, It's Good page, but it seems like one persons preference. I'm sure that there are people who find Shredded Moose and the Seltzerberg movies funny. If anything we should delete the entry on the So Bad, It's Good page, if we cannot allow it to exist on both. Unless anyone objects, I'm gonna re-add it here and let people discuss whether its appropriate on the So Bad, It's Good page.
Freezer
04:18:01 AM Jun 13th 2010
I've never been much of a fan of the idea that being on one page automatically precludes it from being on the other. Especially when it seems it's a small, but passionate minority on one side or the other. I have no problem with a notation that "Some find it So Bad, It's Horrible / So Bad, It's Good."
Samadhir
11:51:44 AM Jun 13th 2010
Yeah, that seems like a good idea. I mean, pretty much all entries will have someone who likes it, so if that precludes something from being on this list, the So Bad, It's Horrible pages would be nearly empty. I, for instance, find Battlefield Earth to be So Bad, It's Good, but I have no problem with it being listed here. Adding the suggested notation and allowing them to exist on both pages seems wise.
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