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LooneyToons
topic
11:34:02 AM Jul 19th 2010
Um. Does "Ow My Sanity" actually cross over with Ah! My Goddess, or is it a Web Original that parodies the Magical Girlfriend genre by using the Cthulhu Mythos instead of, say, Norse mythology? If the latter, it doesn't really belong on this page.
ShayGuy
11:11:33 PM Jul 19th 2010
From what I can tell, it's not riffing on the genre in general; it's very explicitly riffing on the plot — at least the beginning — of AMG, but with an original cast and setting. Not a setting fusion. So it's an original webcomic, albeit at least as explicit about its relationship to its source material as Sailor Nothing was.
LooneyToons
09:25:06 AM Jul 20th 2010
We should probably move it over to the Web Original recs page then.
Ether101Prime
topic
12:57:58 PM May 1st 2010
Are we allowed to have counter arguments as recommendations? Davner's work is only considered good because he/she is popular and clearly the writer has no grasp of the series in the slights as well as no respect for it or anyone else.
98.231.242.193
09:32:10 PM May 10th 2010
edited by 98.231.242.193
Welcome to the world of fanfics, most of the authors have no grasp of the series they write about, they just want to tell the stores they want to tell, whether or not its even remotely possible, and truth be told, most fanfics aren't even remotely possible, I mean Keiichi or Belldandy hooking up with another person regardless of the circumstances is impossible, its not in their personalities, and their love is probably the strongest love story in existence, so its not going to happen, but many people like to read fanfics, even alt pairings, not because they are realistic, but because they want to read something different, Davner's stories are no different, his stories have tons of logic holes and inconsistencies and requires the characters to be OOC, but people read them because they want to read something different even if it has tons of flaws. That's all it is, the real AMG story is already being told, by Fujishima, and its awesome, fanfic authors are just wannabes who want to pretend they are authors by taking someone else's work and messing around with it, I mean if they were actually good, they'd be writing their own original novels, and stories and scripts and be too busy to waste writing fanfics.
ShayGuy
03:50:08 PM May 11th 2010
...Troll response much?
98.231.242.193
04:04:21 PM May 12th 2010
The only trolling would be you Shayguy. Ether was pointing out how Davner has no grasp of the series or skill, and I myself was pointing out how that is true of all fanfic authors. The only one who trolled was you, but its obvious why, everything that was said in my post was 100% true, and you know it, otherwise you would have made an actual argument with merit, rather than just trolling.
ShayGuy
01:31:13 PM May 16th 2010
How do you argue against a self-evidently blatantly nonsensical claim? How do you argue against a Chewbacca Defense? How do you argue with someone who shows no grasp of logic, has no understanding of what trolling is, and thinks "Because I'm right" is an argument? I don't even know where to start except hypothetically trying to disabuse you of the notion...but you're here, on this section of the site; if it hasn't already disabused you, which is what it's for, what will?

Maybe I should point you to published authors who write fanfic? Like Steven Brust, or Gregory Maguire, or our very own Looney Toons?
98.231.242.193
03:58:49 PM May 17th 2010
edited by 98.231.242.193
I wasn't employing the Chewbacca defense, I was pointing out the irony of you saying that I was trolling, and how you failed to put out any sort of reasoned argument to disagree with what I had said, and now reading your follow up response, I see that my original comment was correct, as you spend most of your rant attacking me rather than actually trying to point out anything wrong with my argument. In fact you only get around to putting up a single attempt at a counter at the very end, and only to counter the comment I made about good authors writing original stories, and not wasting their time with fanfics, so apparently you seem to have no problem with the main thrust of my argument that Fanfictions are of poor quality and that they have no grasp of the main series they are based on.

Even then however, your counter has quite a few flaws in it:

Maybe if you actually pointed out people who didn't prove my point it might help you, Gregory Maguire's big claim to fame is fanfiction, that's what Wicked and ugly stepsister and mirror mirror, etc all are, fanfiction, so yeah, he's a fanfic author who happened to get published similar to what happened to Tomi Yuma and first end, and much like first end, his works were pretty terrible when compared to the original stories they are based on, but as I already pointed out, if these "authors" were any good, they would be writing their own original stories and not wasting their time on fanfictions, so you've kind of proven my point there by showing an author who is only famous because of fanfiction, and as people like Britney Spears prove, being famous is not the same as being good.

As for Steven Brust, your argument might carry more water if more of his books weren't out of print, you know why books go out of print? Because there is no demand for them, something that doesn't happen with good authors. Even looking at his wiki page in the awards and honors section shows how limited his career has been. So yeah, pointing to him as being a good author really doesn't help your cause, since the evidence seems stacked against that.

Also I recommend you actually look up what the terms nonsensical claim and logic actually mean, because so far you've only been able to support my argument rather than yours.
Iaculus
03:24:31 PM May 27th 2010
edited by Iaculus
...as people like Britney Spears prove, being famous is not the same as being good.

you know why books go out of print? Because there is no demand for them, something that doesn't happen with good authors

You don't see the inherent contradiction in your arguments here?

To write fanfiction is not, by definition, a sign of an inferior author - it simply means that in this case, the writer has decided to take up the self-imposed limitation of writing within a pre-existing setting. This presents different challenges to original fiction - most notably, the balancing act between remaining faithful to the setting and creating something new and interesting. With a non-canon pairing, for instance, the challenge is in figuring out the ways it might happen within the constraints of existing canon and existing characterisation.

If you're going to blame the low average quality of fanfiction on anything, blame it on the lack of a filtering process on Internet fiction, allowing Sturgeon's Law to be demonstrated to its fullest extent. It's not that there's less good stuff - it's that there's more bad stuff.

Oh, and regarding the OP of this topic, I'm sure that providing qualifying remarks (or even outright objections) to other people's recommendations is perfectly acceptable. Happens all the time on other works' Fan Fic Recommendations pages. I would advise you ask yourself why Davner's stories are popular, though.
98.231.242.193
05:30:22 PM May 27th 2010
No, because its not a contradiction, both things can be completely true, but for different people, one person can be popular and yet lack talent, another may not be popular but still also lack talent.

Actually it is the sign of an inferior author, since the universe is prebuilt, the characters precreated, and the fanfic cannot improve on the original, only twist the original work, that is the sign of someone who lacks skill, it is derivative and yet at the same time, ignores the rules that make the original universe so well loved. The original work is what was interesting not the fanfic, the fanfic is piggybacking off the love for the original work.

Creating a non-canon pairing is the very height of the problem of fanfics, as in order to create it, you have to violate the rules of the series canon, for example in AMG, any pairing that violated Bell and K1, would be a violation of the canon and preexisting constraints of the universe. The whole AMG series constantly proves how strong and unbreakable their relationship is, so breaking it, just proves how bad the author is, since they are taking what is law in the AMG universe and deciding to ignore it, even though everything in the series, from the manga to the various animes, says otherwise. How is it a challenge to ignore the basic facts and constraints of a universe? How does that show any semblance of skill?

Your comment about sturgeon's law, would imply that there are actual good fanfics, I have yet to see any, and I've seen many, most are laughably bad and a few are the kind that just make me angry that the writer hasn't been suffocated in their sleep by now.

Why are Davner's works popular? why is Fox new Popular? Why do dictators have followers? Stupid people are everywhere laculus

ShayGuy
08:23:46 PM May 27th 2010
What a coincidence, this was just posted on Boing Boing.

But really, given what you've said so far, I wonder what it would take for a fanfic to qualify itself as "good" in your mind, if not even...*thinks*...The Very Secret Diary qualifies. The idea that all romantic pairings could only ever work out one particular way no matter what the circumstances also strikes me as very problematic and unsupported by reality.
98.231.242.193
10:34:09 PM May 27th 2010
edited by 98.231.242.193
Your argument is deeply flawed Shay, first off, I never said all, this is about fictional series, hence the term canon, and actually, you're wrong, because in reality, all relationships follow only one path, and only one series of actions and circumstances actually occurs, assuming that other paths can occur under different conditions and circumstances, is speculative, since no one can actually test that hypothesis, as you can't go back in time and change circumstances and then see the new outcome.

Also, the fanfic author isn't actually creating a different set of conditions or circumstances capable of creating a different outcome, they are actually just shoving their own desire into the story, since they don't know if a certain circumstance would actually result in outcome B, they are just saying it will, even if series canon says otherwise, for example, in Davner's story, Davner has Keiichi have Urd become the goddess to stay with him, even though it ignores all the promises he's made to Belldandy, like when he said he'd never make that wish to anyone but Bell or how he'd wait for her, hence my point, the fanfic author isn't creating set of circumstances that could result in another result, they are just shoving in their own desire and ignoring the constraints and rules of the series canon.

In addition, if we are talking about Ah My goddess, then there is no set of plausible circumstances, that could actually result in Belldandy and Keiichi not being together (By plausible, I mean things the characters would actually do, or things that could happen in the universe, for example Keiichi picking up a rifle and going on a killing spree, is implausible, it just isn't going to happen, no matter how much a fanfic author might want to write a story about it).

Also, that boing boing guy proves my point, I didn't see a single work of any worth on that entire list, also, I don't see fanfic as porn, some porn actually serves a worthwhile purpose.
Iaculus
05:42:02 AM May 28th 2010
... You know, I was actually intending to write a lengthy, considered rebuttal of each of your points, until I noticed that you had compared the popularity of a piece of internet fiction to the rise of a dictatorship, whilst dismissing the works of Gaiman, Moore, and Zelazny as 'not of any worth'.

Good troll, would read again.
98.231.242.193
08:31:16 AM May 28th 2010
edited by 98.231.242.193
Not trolling, just driving home a point, you asked why Davner's stories are popular, and I was just driving home the point that stupid people are everywhere, one example of stupidity is people following a dictator. And as for Moore and Gaiman, and Zelanzny I've read their stuff, I stand by my previous comments, especially Zelazny, his stuff is utter garbage, especially lord of light.

I also find it funny that when people can't argue a point with someone, they resort to calling them a troll, its quite funny, I'm going to call it arguing ad trollum, not putting forward any worthwhile argument, just calling a person a troll
Glidergun
07:22:31 PM May 28th 2010
So what, John Gardner's Grendel is not of any worth? Arthuriana and the tales of Robin Hood are not of any worth? West Side Story? Much of the Shakespearian canon, including Romeo and Juliet? The Disney Animated Canon, the Aeneid, Jason and the Argonauts, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead, Arsène Lupin, Lupin III (fanfiction of fanfiction), the sprawling multi-author clusterfuck of the Cthulhu Mythos...did you give Shay Guy's link anything more than the most cursory glance?
98.231.242.193
08:02:50 PM May 28th 2010
I don't make statements wildly, the works on that list are very familiar to me, so when I say I stand by my statement, you can be sure I have reason to say it, you bring up Romeo and Juliet, for example, how in the world did Romeo and Juliet get elevated to such a high stature? Its a pretty mediocre love story and yet everyone tries to turn it into some great work of art. The Aeneid? lol, after reading Indian epics, the greek/latin epics aren't impressive in any way.
Ether101Prime
04:25:06 AM Jun 10th 2010
edited by Ether101Prime
There's many problems with you're argument, the fact that Danver's stories are pure trash that conform to the ideas of a curtain part of the fandom's views on the series. No matter how you try to cut it, Keiichi isn't weak, Belldandy is as old as she looks and there's more proving that they meat as children then there is to suggest that Hild is evil.

PS-Romeo and Juliet isn't a love story.

Edit:Look at it this way, if Keiichi asks Belldandy's presents for permission to marry her it will be because that's the tradisinal way of going about it not because he's a coward afraid that she will reject him.

It's amazing how people over look the dark side of the series.
98.231.242.193
09:55:45 AM Jun 10th 2010
edited by 98.231.242.193
Umm...why are you telling me that? I agree that Davner's stories are trash, and I made no mention of Keiichi being a coward or weak or Hild being evil (none of which I agree with, except maybe that Keiichi is a little cowardly when it comes to expressing his feelings for Belldandy, took him a very long time to tell her he loved her, even though he knew he did love her and that she loved him, otherwise he's usually pretty brave, I mean he's fought demons to help her, we know that Hild is far from evil, in fact Aoshima is more evil than Hild). And where was the dark side of the series ignored? Although talking about its dark side is relative, even the darkest moments of the manga are pretty tame compared to most other series.

Actually Romeo and Juliet is a tragic love story, hence the whole starcrossed lovers thing, its just not a very good one.

Sackett
08:40:47 PM Jun 12th 2010
edited by Sackett
Uhh.... What?

Look, Davner has written one story in which Keiichi ends up with Urd. He has also written 4 where Keiichi is with Belldandy. In fact he was so upset that Keiichi and Belldandy got split up in canon that he wrote a "fix fic" just to put them back together. (Don't worry, I'm sure the split in canon won't last for long). Why does Danver write what he writes about? Because they are interesting ideas. Furthermore he writes well.

His story putting Keiichi with Urd was based on the idea: How could Keiichi and Urd end up together without major distortions of their characters? It's an interesting idea, and he has written a plausible (Belldandy gets sealed, effectively killing her for the extent of Keiichi's life), if unlikely, means by which this could happen. It is of course completely at odds with the Original Flavor of the work, but that's okay. Lots of Fan fics are. The story is well written.

You might notice that despite this, I have pointedly not recommended it, despite recommending many other works by Danver. Why? Because personally to me any fic that splits up Belldanady and Keiichi is not a fic I can recommend. That doesn't mean it's trash, and I have to give grudging respect for it.

Most of Davers fic are not Original Flavor, but that's why I find them interesting. He takes things more seriously then the canon work, and is much more in depth and focused on the Norse gods flavor then the typical Magical Girlfriend combined with Will They or Won't They?. That's an interesting perspective, and an enjoyable one to read. Which is the point.

After all, I find "Ill Met by Starlight" to be one of the best fan fics I've ever read. Yet is the complete opposite of the original flavor of Ranma 1/2. I would horrified if Rumiko Takahashi actually decided to go off in that direction with the canonical story, but that doesn't mean I can't find enjoyment in reading about an AU with an evil woobie Ranma.

I also enjoy good original flavor works, and if you all want to stick to exclusively those types of fanfics that's fine. Everyone has different tastes. But there's no need to make it some kind of moral choice with talk like "Davner's stories are trash" or claiming that he has no respect for the series. Just say, "I don't like this work, because it doesn't have the original flavor".

That's legitimate criticism and I would have no objection to you adding comments like that as a "counter-recommendation". Unfortunately, I guess some people where abusing the counter recommendation aspect and Fast Eddie came out rather disapproving of them. (Not sure if he explicitly banned them, or if he just said they are fair game to be cut). All I can say is that if you want to add counter recs I don't intend to cut them as long as they are respectful and polite criticisms about why you don't think it's a good story.

Oh, and please don't come back to me with some argument about how it's disrespectful to the creator or some such. I believe in Death of the Author, so I'm not going to be persuaded by those arguments.
98.231.242.193
12:17:17 AM Jun 13th 2010
Ummm...the novel isn't canon, its a side story, really no better than fanfic itself, especially in how poorly the characters are depicted, also the story of the novel, has no impact on the manga, so hence not canon.

No its not plausible, even under those conditions, methinks you have not read the manga, Urd doesn't have the ability to be Keiichi's girlfriend, or even a goddess comparable to Belldandy, nor does Keiichi even view her as a potential Girlfriend, if you read the manga, and knew their interactions, it would be clear, in many ways, she not only exasperates and annoys him, but also scares him, not to mention, Keiichi already made a promise to Bell in the fourth goddess arc, that he would never make the wish of anyone but her, kind of puts the kaibosh on any chance of Urd and Keiichi, since he would never wish for her to be with him, or for that matter, anyone else and Keiichi, since he wouldn't make that wish of anyone but Bell ,and if you have seen the series, you'd know Keiichi takes promises very seriously, heck even Davner wrote in that same story that love endures, which means, that even if Belldandy were gone, Keiichi's love for her would endure, making a relationship with Urd impossible, I mean, in every possible way, that relationship is impossible, something Fujishima has made clear over and over in the manga.

But the point of the series, is its not supposed to be dug deep on Norse mythology, its just loosely based, part of the point is to show that human religion is way off the mark, and that the beliefs of religious fundies are likely to be no where near the reality, heck Davner's version of Hild is extremely evil, the real Hild is at most playfully bad, she'll have a bit of fun at your expense, but even she doesn't cross a lot of lines. Methinks Davner is one of those religious fundie whackjobs from the south, especially after his little rant about the evils of abortion he had delivered via Urd, sheesh, put down that bible, this is AMG, not some southern baptist congregation, not to mention, Davner laces his stories with biblical nuttiness, it always some big struggle between good and evil when in fact in the AMG univers, its nothing like that, heck humans like Aoshima are worse than the demons.

This part of why I say fanfics in general are just bad, so I don't see any worth from them, I have yet to see any fanfic that came close to matching the magic of the manga, and I expect I never will, in fact I'd gladly bet my life and every penny I own that I never will, its a bet I wouldn't lose.

He doesn't have any respect for the series, if he did, he would respect the basic rules of the series when crafting his stories, no all he wants to do is tell the stories he wants, regardless of how little relation it has to AMG, and that's not just his failing, but a failing of fanfic authors in general.

I don't really care if you are going to be persuaded, since its pretty clear that regardless of what I say, your mind is made up, I can only point you to the water, I can't make you drink

Sackett
04:16:32 AM Jun 13th 2010
edited by Sackett
Oh good grief. I love how you have elevated the manga to canon, but deny all other official works as canon. What is that but your own version of Death of the Author? Just pointed in the direction that you want to see things instead of Davner's.

1: Davner is clearly writing in an AU from the canon universe and so most things in canon simply have not happened. That's what AU means. Also, really? You can't love more than one person? What are you? Some hormone addled teenager who thinks a person has just one soul mate out there?

2: No duh the original series is not deeply grounded in the Norse mythology. Did you miss my statement about how that's one of the major differences between Davner and Original Flavor? That's what makes Davner's take on Ah! My Goddess interesting and different. After all, it's not like I have to choose between Davner's AU and Canon. I can enjoy them both you know.

3: If you really think a Japanese author is writing some kind of author tract against "religious fundies" then you're incredibly ignorant and American-centric. I doubt the author would even know what you are referring too.

4: Exactly how do you think a divine goddess would feel about abortion? Have you ever really thought about it? Even if you believe that abortion should not be illegal, only the most callus or immature of individuals could think that abortion is a moral choice.

Sure, a woman has a right to choose when or if she will have children. But it's just as true that a mother should never kill her baby. How you reconcile and balance those two competing moral goods in a legal system is up for debate.

Abortion as a moral question however is quite clear. Abortion is always, in every instance, a selfish act. Just as giving birth is always a selfless act. Nor is this perception of abortion as evil limited to Southern Baptists. This is consistent with the perception of at least 70% of the American public. (Yes, a lot of pro-choice people think abortion is morally wrong).

Granted, Danver's treatment of the subject was rather harsh and I thought a bit over the top. But it wasn't about preaching against the evils of abortion, it was about Urd's character development as she dealt with her feelings of being an "unwanted" and "unplanned" child.

5: It's clear you love the AMG manga. Good for you. How Danver's creation of an AU version of that manga harms your enjoyment I do not understand. Nor do I mind your pointing me to the water. It's just your insistence that I can enjoy only the water you approve of with no other flavor of beverage allowed is rather annoying.

PS: If you are looking for a work with the "magic" of Ah! My Goddess I suggest you try some other contemporary works such as Maison Ikkoku. I think you would quite enjoy it.
98.231.242.193
08:38:57 AM Jun 13th 2010
edited by 98.231.242.193
Death of the author states that a writer's interpretation of his own work is no more valid than the interpretations of any of the readers, sorry but I think that is a bunch of bull. Fujishima's work is the most important in the AMG universe, and the offshoots,well those are at best sidestories, the novel was not written by fujishima, nor does it have any impact on the manga, so it has no canonical value. Its like in the DCU, the cartoons and the movies are not canon, only the mainline comics.

1.Keiichi and Urd can't love each other that way, even if you assume that someone can love more than one person, and that's merely an assumption, since you can't really prove it, as people throw the word love around rather easily, the idea of Urd and Keiichi working is impossible. Also stop trying to use the AU argument, even in an AU, there are limits, you can't suddenly have Keiichi go into a bank and start shooting, its not going to happen, not unless he;s a completely different person from the get go, same with getting with URD, unelss they are totally different people, they aren;t going to work.

2.You may think its interesting, I think its stupid, one of the best parts of AMG, is that its not strongly based on Norse mythology, in fact in many ways its like a futuristic techno-magic universe, Davner trying to shove Norse mythology into the AMG universe is ridiculous, because it completely violates what Fujishima has already made.

3.Did I say he was trying to write a tract against religious fundies? No I did not, I was saying Fujishima was possibly showing that the human concept of religion is likely wrong in his crafting of the AMG universe, this would also mean that the beliefs of religious fundies is way off the mark, since if human religion is wrong, then so is religious fundanmentalism, do you understand, since if human religion is wrong, then so is fundamentalism based on those religions. Also, religious fundamentalism is not just an American thing, lol, seems you are the one who is ignorant and American centric, religious fundamentalism is a worldwide concept, just not always christian fundamentalism.

4.How they would personally feel, is not the same as launching a rant against it, saying that a mother should never kill her baby is just a religious concept, many would not consider it killing, as the baby is not yet viable, when its aborted, see this is why AMG is good, these silly religious nonsense is left out. Sorry, but I disagree that Abortion is wrong or done for selfish reasons, and giving birth is not selfless, in fact many should not give birth period as they are not fit to be parents, and who cares if 70% of Americans think Abortion is wrong, a similar percentage don't believe in evolution. Pretty much shows the level of intelligence in the country. Even as a moral question, its not clear, since the fetus is arguably not alive, and its certainly not sentient when its aborted, and its not viable outside the womb, so aborting it is not necessarily an evil act, I see you probably identify with the religious fundies.

In the manga, Urd never whines about being unwanted or unplanned, in fact, as we've seen, Hild loves her, and so does Bell, Skuld and Peorth and Mara, so she's not really hurting for lack of love. So showing her as whiny was another example of poor writing by Davner.

5. I liked Maison Ikkoku, nice story, loved the reference to it that Takano made when she visited the temple.

Fanfiction doesn't harm my viewing of the manga, but when discussing fanfic, I'm going to compare it to the manga, and give it a critique based on my viewing of the manga, and I'm afraid that fanfic is always gong to come up short. Its like in art, fanart of AMG is going to be compared to the art of the manga.
Iaculus
12:25:41 PM Jun 13th 2010
Look, if you have this little regard for fanfiction, why on earth are you commenting on the Fan Fic Recommendations pages? Last I checked, they were a resource for people who were interested in discovering the best the 'net had to offer in terms of derivative works. Judging by what you've posted so far, you're not.
98.231.242.193
12:27:20 PM Jun 13th 2010
I was on a wiki walk when I came across this page
Ether101Prime
12:28:37 PM Nov 6th 2010
The AU argument is void, because if Keiichi isn't willing to fight all the gods in heaven and all the demons in hell then he isn't Keiichi. Neither Belldandy nor Keiichi would give up and role over like they do in Danver's fics. But most importantly to say that he's being true to the scores material by way of completely ignoring it in every way possible is silly. The fact that he doesn't even try to understand what the Norse references really are only adds insult to injury not to mention the fact that he uses the wrong version of Norse as well.
Evilkritter
09:05:06 AM May 12th 2011
edited by Evilkritter
This is so late an addition to the conversation it's sad, but...

Shay Guy, you successfully called out a troll that *I* would have mistaken for legit, then you proceed to feed it? Win for the catch, fail for letting it eat you.

DON'T FEED THE TROLLS. Catch, tag, and RUN.
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