Dragon Ball Tropes O To Z Discussion

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Larkmarn
Topic
01:33:43 PM Apr 1st 2016
I'm going to readd You Gotta Have Blue Hair. Given the show's use of Only Six Faces, outlandish hair colors are used quite frequently to distinguish characters.

Now, the original example was bad (It clearly thought the trope was "This is a blue-haired character"), but it's still an example.
TobiasDrake
01:55:38 PM Apr 1st 2016
edited by TobiasDrake
I'm not sure. The show may have Only Six Faces but it has wildly different character designs. Bulma's one of very few female characters, and she dresses and acts in a very specific way. If she had black hair, I think she'd still be very identifiable from Chi-Chi, Goku, or Yamcha.

Yamcha's the only character who could really benefit from Blue Hair due to how much he resembles Goku after the latter grows up, and he doesn't have it. :P
Larkmarn
02:16:27 PM Apr 1st 2016
It's not even necessarily about characters standing out from the crowd, though. It applies just as much for background characters and everything.

But really, distinguishing between characters is a potential explanation for the trope, not a necessary part of it. The trope itself if "unnatural hair colors just plain exist here. Not a big deal."
TobiasDrake
05:05:41 PM Apr 1st 2016
Rereading the trope, fair enough. I fixated overmuch on the use of it to distinguish between characters.
TobiasDrake
Topic
09:25:30 AM Mar 30th 2016
edited by TobiasDrake
Let's talk about Sequel Episode.

Sequel Episode: Most of the story's major arcs have few connections to each other but there are a few proper sequels. The 22nd and 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai arcs are sequels to the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai arc, separated from each other by the Red Ribbon Army and Piccolo Daimao arcs. They also got a partial sequel years later at the beginning of the Buu arc. The Red Ribbon arc got a sequel in the form of the Android/Cell arcs while the Piccolo Daimao arc was immediately followed by its sequel.

Do these really count as "Sequel Arcs"? The only thing the three tournaments have in common is that the protagonists compete in them and continue advancing ongoing character arcs. There isn't a central narrative to them.

Cell and Buu are Z examples but, sidestepping that issue, the only thing relating Cell to the RRA arc is that the story pays lip service to the idea that Gero wants revenge for their downfall. It involves none of the same characters, conflicts, or themes apart from the fact that the protagonists are still the protagonists and Gero himself is a brand new character masquerading as a returning villain.
Larkmarn
09:37:34 AM Mar 30th 2016
I'd consider the Cell Arc more or less a Call Back to the RR Army Arc, but not a sequel to it. As you said, it's mostly lip service and "there are Androids."

Goku does definitely apply for Screaming Warrior. Even in DB, he definitely screams a lot when he's attacking. His yell is burned into my brain, and I've only watched Z dubbed.
TobiasDrake
09:53:10 AM Mar 30th 2016
edited by TobiasDrake
That's a good point. I'll re-add Screaming Warrior.

Sorry if I'm locking down the page too much. <.<
Larkmarn
11:35:14 AM Mar 30th 2016
Don't sweat it, you're doing great work.

Splitting DB and DBZ is hugely important, in my opinion. Yes, I know they're "the same work" but it makes navigation worlds easier.
TobiasDrake
11:46:02 AM Mar 30th 2016
edited by TobiasDrake
They're only the same insofar as the manga and, while I know that this page is Manga/DragonBall, there is no such page as Anime/DragonBall. It's a redirect to this one.

Either we have a Manga page that covers the complete manga as well as an anime page for DB and one for DBZ, or we keep those sections of the manga covered in Anime/DragonBall and Anime/DragonBallZ confined to their own areas. Either way, we need to be consistent.

Right now, we're set up with the second option. We should probably stay that way, as it might be a bit redundant to distinguish Manga/DragonBall from Anime/DragonBall and Anime/DragonBallZ.

Meanwhile, examples from Z's anime filler, GT, the Z movies, Super, etc. don't even have the pretense of an excuse to be on this page.
Larkmarn
Topic
06:10:04 AM Mar 29th 2016
There's an edit war going on over Reality Ensues: Hash it out here.

  • Reality Ensues
    • Society all but breaks down after King Piccolo takes over, abolished all laws and freed all the prisoners. It gets even worse after Piccolo announces that he will destroy one city by lottery every year for the next 36 years. See where Cell got his inspiration.
    • doesn't matter how much righteous fury you have, if you're tired and hungry after a long battle, chances are you're going to get you butt handed to you if you start picking fights. Something Goku learned the hard way from his battle with Tambourine.

Larkmarn
06:20:12 AM Mar 29th 2016
For the first, it doesn't seem to apply because there's not really any fantasy involved in the set up. It's like saying "Reality Ensues: When Goku drops an apple, it hits the ground." Basically, there's a realistic element in there, but there's no indication that it wouldn't have happened.

For the second... I'm a bit iffy. On one hand, yes, it's vaguely grounded in reality (if you're really really hungry and tired, you won't fight as well). On the other, there's nothing realistic about Goku's hunger patterns (being hungry isn't a freaking status effect, and eating everything in sight doesn't instantly make you stronger. They're so unrealistic that claiming that part of it to be realistic seems like a huge stretch.

The first plain doesn't belong here. The second I'm honestly not sure.
Ramona122003
08:20:16 AM Mar 29th 2016
Well, I think the first does belong since we see society actually break down under Piccolo's rule. The only other time that happened is in the Cell Games and the Buu Saga. Most of the time Dragon Ball doesn't show the effects that super beings would bring to the world. Piccolo releasing all the criminals and see what they do with their found freedom is also shown.

The second, Goku didn't get stronger from eat, unless you're talking about a Saiyan's racial trait. He was tired and exhausted from fighting Tien. He had the will to avenge Krillin, but his body was already burn out and he got his butt beat.

Perhaps my understanding of this trope is wrong. I thought the trope meant a fantasy story that often works on its own reality, suddenly showing realistic consequences. Like in the Dragon Ball, getting angry often makes you stronger. Where when Goku tries to avenge Krillin, he was hit by the natural consequences of being tired and hungry.
Larkmarn
08:51:14 AM Mar 29th 2016
edited by Larkmarn
The thing about this trope is that there has an expectation that reality won't ensue.

Piccolo's reign is really quite unprecedented in the work. There's no reason to think that things wouldn't go to hell after Piccolo took power. In fact, that's his explicit goal. He's been a Knight Of Cerberus from the getgo. I think I see the idea (the world goes to chaos because of super powered people), but that falls flat since it's not the world falling apart due to their presence, but because of the fact he's taken over the planet due to his powers and a wish cast by a magic dragon.

And now I'm sure the second doesn't apply. Because Goku being weak because he's hungry has been happening from day 1. The precedent set by the series is that "being hungry makes Goku weak." That's just something that happens and is part of the setting.
TobiasDrake
02:56:30 PM Mar 29th 2016
As Larkmarn pointed out, there has to be an expectation that the thing wouldn't happen. That people don't operate at 100% effectiveness when exhausted is just common sense. It's as much Reality Ensues as Goku being pulled down by gravity when he jumps off his Nimbus.

Reality Ensues is supposed to subvert expectations regarding the consequences of fantasy tropes. In order for it to qualify, those expectations first need to be created.
Ramona122003
03:29:08 PM Mar 29th 2016
The dragon only gave back Piccolo's youth. He could still take over the world even as an old man.

As for Piccolo's reign being quite unprecedented in the work, I thought that was the point of Reality Ensures. We have the fantasy setting of Dragon Ball being subjective to a real world breakdown and people really falling into despair to the point that Suno, at least in the anime, is willing to shoot Piccolo with a rifle, when before that moment bad things happened in the series, but they were either fixed almost immediately like Bora being murdered, while Piccolo is given some time to spread his chaos. It isn't really as straightforward as gravity.

For the last one, the manga and has shown Goku and others power through when they're hurt or have the disadvantage by sheer will. While with the incident mentioned, Goku has the will, but it doesn't matter because he's tired and hungry from fighting Tien.
Larkmarn
06:36:02 AM Mar 30th 2016
There's no reason to think that Piccolo's reign wouldn't be crappy, though. In fact, from the episode that Tambourine shows himself, Piccolo rising to power is described as... well, being chaos and death and all that good stuff. Like I said, he is a Knight of Cerebus. That doesn't mean Reality Ensues.

And again, sure, Heroic Willpower and all is a common trope in DB. Except You Can't Thwart Stage One is as well, and Goku routinely gets his ass beaten by an adversary in his first encounter only to come back stronger (Mercenary Tao, Jackie Chun, Tambourine, Tien, Piccolo himself, etc) and beat him. And again, Goku being weaker when he's hungry has been established since his very first encounter with Yamcha. There's nothing new here. And that's on top of the whole "there's nothing realistic about Goku's eating habits" thing.
Ramona122003
07:36:43 PM Mar 30th 2016
The thing with Yamcha is that Goku wasn't particularly motivated to fight him. With Tambourine he wanted to kill him and had all the makings of Heroic Willpower kicking in, but it didn't since he was tired and hungry, and when you're worn out righteous anger won't get you far. I don't see how Mercenary Tao, Piccolo, Tien got into this since Goku fought all of them at his best and he lost to Tao Piccolo, and would have beating Tien if he didn't hit a Trunk. It isn't about Goku losing to Tambourine. It is why he lost. Jackie Chun was just one long prolong match, which Goku lost partly because of his lack of experience being used against him, especially since both Goku and Chun were worn out by the end.

As for Piccolo's rule, yeah we knew it would be crappy, but this is the first time in the series that we saw real world consequences for hell on Earth. Tambourine killed a lot of people, but we didn't see people mourn for them and most died off-screen. Here we see the how Piccolo's rule effects the world at large and the characters, which I thought was the point of the trope.
Larkmarn
01:29:34 PM Apr 1st 2016
The point is that there are plenty of times when righteous anger just didn't win out. And plenty of times when Goku was weaker when he was hungry. So why is it suddenly realistic when both happen at the same time?

As for the Piccolo thing... I really don't get why you're arguing that one so badly. It's a total shoehorn. What happens doesn't contradict anything that came early, it doesn't subvert the established beliefs, and in fact just fits what we were told earlier. They didn't telegraph out every little aspect of it, but it's not like we were supposed to expect his rule to be anything but what we saw. Besides, as the original pull points out, citing "realism" in "When Satan takes over the Earth after getting a wish from a dragon made by God, the world turns to hell" is a stretch. There's nothing realistic about the build up, and the situation is already so fantastic that we don't know what Reality Ensues would even be.
Larkmarn
Topic
02:17:42 PM Mar 28th 2016
edited by Larkmarn

I pulled the last line, because it seems like a cross between Fridge Logic, speculation, and fan interpretation. I don't think Goku trying to be stronger is ever shown as being a bad thing... he keeps getting stronger to fight stronger threats. If he didn't get stronger, the Earth would kinda be... quite dead. And while fans (myself included) love joking about how Goku only understands and cares about training, it's never really shown as an unhealthy obsession. At least not one that would be considered "breaking it, hero." He does have some Blood Knight tendencies that are certainly related and problematic, but that's not the same as trying to get stronger. The guy has damn good reasons for getting stronger.
Ramona122003
08:22:58 AM Mar 29th 2016
It' is kinda shown in a negative light late in Z. But Roshi has nothing to do with Goku's obsession to become stronger. Goku is naturally looking for more challenges. I say just erase that last part since the rest fits the trope.
TobiasDrake
02:58:36 PM Mar 29th 2016
I think there's a connection between Roshi's lesson during Goku's formative years and the man he grew up to be, but I still say pull it. It's too conversational and sounds like a Justifying Edit.
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